Cardinal Marx: Church should see positive aspects of homosexual relationships [CWN]

[Blue_Horizon]

ZZ:

“Someone committing grave sins… are committing grave offenses in the eyes of God. Grave offenses that somehow IF they are saved in spite of those sinful actions, they will still spend much time and suffering in Purgatory for them.”

ZZ completely non imputable transgressions of grave matter may certainly be a manifestation of current personal imperfections. But if they are not even venial sins, which the CCC states is possible, then no extra purgation is required than what is already required to remove the pre-existing imperfection.

And imperfections that rarely cause venial sins in a particular person may not even need purgation. They may be extrinsic to the soul which may well be spotless. Its a debatable point methinks.

Your confusion over what I stated, and of the CCC, is boldened above.
“Committing grave sin” and “committing grave matter” are NOT the same thing and NOT what I stated.

This is the repeated error on this thread that lay people on CAF repeatedly fall into and I am afraid you are no exception in this case.

BTW Moral Theologians do not normally speak of “committing” Grave Matter but rather “engaging in”. The word “committing” is strictly speaking reserved for a complete moral (or immoral) act. Usually for an actual mortal sin (and venial sin).
This is because “committing” implies full imputability.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

So a mentally ill bully can continue on bullying? Because he doesn’t know what he’s doing is wrong?

I think you have lost track of the issue on this thread.

The issue is whether ALL people who regularly do grave wrong are without sanctifying grace.
Obviously their deeds are wrong.

Or in other words, such people even if not responsible still need to be restrained depending on the gravity of the wrong doing. If not responsible they should really be placed in a secure health institution rather than a prision.

Unfortunately most countries don’t have resources for this so they go to prision.
Yet they are there more because they are “mad” or “sad” than “bad”.

 

[JosieN]

I think you have lost track of the issue on this thread.

The issue is whether ALL people who regularly do grave wrong are without sanctifying grace.
Obviously their deeds are wrong.

Or in other words, such people even if not responsible still need to be restrained depending on the gravity of the wrong doing. If not responsible they should really be placed in a secure health institution rather than a prision.

Unfortunately most countries don’t have resources for this so they go to prision.
Yet they are there more because they are “mad” than “bad”.

If the disagreement here is whether ALL people who regularly do grave wrong are without sanctifying grace or not, can a prostitute continue on prostituting because he/she doesn’t know what he/she’s doing is wrong be in the state of grace? Will one day the answer be "it depends or maybe "etc. instead of yes or no? My answer is no, they must go to confession and stop being a prostitute, what is yours?

 

[Blue_Horizon]

…Can a prostitute continue on prostituting because he/she doesn’t know what he/she’s doing is wrong be in the state of grace? … My answer is no,

Pope Francis has already given you the answer in AL.
You are free to privately disagree if you are sincere and still remain in a state of grace…just as is the case with some prostitutes and no doubt many long-time faithful gay couples.

 

[JosieN]

Pope Francis has already given you the answer in AL.
You are free to privately disagree if you are sincere and still remain in a state of grace…just as is the case with some prostitutes and no doubt many long-time faithful gay couples.

So you are saying that while we worry about missing Mass on Sundays and the occasional swear word, and having arguments with our spouse, etc. prostitutes can sell their bodies for money and long-time gay couples can commit the sin of sodomy while remaining in the state of grace. Where in AL does it say this and do you believe this is acceptable to God?

 

[Don_Ruggero]

If we can find what we are looking for in an old Catechism or an older version of the Bible, then maybe that is where the Holy Spirit is leading us. When the Holy Spirit says to us, something is not right, we should listen, and when the truth is presented to us in a way we no longer recognize it, we should open our eyes. With searching and God’s guidance I believe we will find what we are looking for.

If you think that the Holy Spirit is leading you in a direction away from the documents of the Magisterium of today…then you have already placed yourself in a position of conflict with the Magisterium. That is a very sad and a very dangerous place to be.

I repeat the words of Pope Saint John Paul II:
*Incomplete and contradictory notion of Tradition. Incomplete, because it does not take sufficiently into account the living character of Tradition, which, as the Second Vatican Council clearly taught, "comes from the apostles and progresses in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit. There is a growth in insight into the realities and words that are being passed on. This comes about in various ways.

But especially contradictory is a notion of Tradition which opposes the universal Magisterium of the Church possessed by the Bishop of Rome and the Body of Bishops. It is impossible to remain faithful to the Tradition while breaking the ecclesial bond with him to whom, in the person of the Apostle Peter, Christ himself entrusted the ministry of unity in his Church.*
Purporting to look to the past to find answers while not listening, and submitting oneself, to the Magisterium speaking and acting today is to place oneself in the gravest of danger.

You allege that the Holy Spirit is “speaking” to you and “guiding” you – in a direction away from the Magisterium as a living reality rather than a reality to be discerned in the mists of another era. The submission of charismatic graces to apostolic authority is treated by the Magisterium and the variance between what a person can “believe” they are being directed to do by alleged supernatural intervention and the submission to the Apostolic gift in the Church, which is explicit:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20160516_iuvenescit-ecclesia_en.html

Beyond that, I promise such Catholics as who would do such a thing my prayers – and I terminate communication with them because, in my experience, they are no longer interested in hierarchy as a lived reality but as a construct of their own creation and of their own choosing and judgment. That is not Catholic ecclesiology.

 

[Sarah_B_Good]

I don’t disagree, but if you aren’t recognizing it (since you admit you left), why are you lecturing Catholics on the same thing?

On the contrary, I believe I am recognizing the Holy Spirit at work in my life. I am not lecturing anyone. I am sharing my experience and asking questions. Yes, my husband and I made the very difficult decision to leave the Catholic Church, and it was a heartbreaking one. We were both raised in the Church and married in the Church. We both have great respect for the Catholic Church and for Pope Francis. That has not and will not change.

 

[JosieN]

If you think that the Holy Spirit is leading you in a direction away from the documents of the Magisterium of today…then you have already placed yourself in a position of conflict with the Magisterium. That is a very sad and a very dangerous place to be.

I repeat the words of Pope Saint John Paul II:
Incomplete and contradictory notion of Tradition. Incomplete, because it does not take sufficiently into account the living character of Tradition, which, as the Second Vatican Council clearly taught, "comes from the apostles and progresses in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit. There is a growth in insight into the realities and words that are being passed on. This comes about in various ways.

But especially contradictory is a notion of Tradition which opposes the universal Magisterium of the Church possessed by the Bishop of Rome and the Body of Bishops. It is impossible to remain faithful to the Tradition while breaking the ecclesial bond with him to whom, in the person of the Apostle Peter, Christ himself entrusted the ministry of unity in his Church.
Purporting to look to the past to find answers while not listening, and submitting oneself, to the Magisterium speaking and acting today is to place oneself in the gravest of danger.

You allege that the Holy Spirit is “speaking” to you and “guiding” you – in a direction away from the Magisterium as a living reality rather than a reality to be discerned in the mists of another era. The submission of charismatic graces to apostolic authority is treated by the Magisterium and the variance between what a person can “believe” they are being directed to do by alleged supernatural intervention and the submission to the Apostolic gift in the Church, which is explicit:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20160516_iuvenescit-ecclesia_en.html

Beyond that, I promise such Catholics as who would do such a thing my prayers – and I terminate communication with them because, in my experience, they are no longer interested in hierarchy as a lived reality but as a construct of their own creation and of their own choosing and judgment. That is not Catholic ecclesiology.

Thank you for your concern, but I do not see any harm in reading an older Catechism. It is Catholic and has writings from the saints in it. I am interested in what they had to say when they were alive. I feel we are connected to the saints even though we are here on earth. I did not mean to allege that the Holy Spirit was guiding me in a direction away from the Magisterium, that was not the intent of what I said, even though it may have appeared that way.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

So you are saying that while we worry about missing Mass on Sundays and the occasional swear word, and having arguments with our spouse, etc. prostitutes can sell their bodies for money and long-time gay couples can commit the sin of sodomy while remaining in the state of grace. Where in AL does it say this and do you believe this is acceptable to God?

I will leave others to cite the relevant sentence which is well known to all who have read it Josie. You are clearly closed on this matter and your questions merely rhetorical. It will make no difference to your view when you discover Pope Francis disagrees with you.

 

[OraLabora]

If the disagreement here is whether ALL people who regularly do grave wrong are without sanctifying grace or not, can a prostitute continue on prostituting because he/she doesn’t know what he/she’s doing is wrong be in the state of grace? Will one day the answer be "it depends or maybe "etc. instead of yes or no? My answer is no, they must go to confession and stop being a prostitute, what is yours?

Josie you are proposing a very simplistic solution to a complex problem. Prostitution is a problem intrinsically linked to terrible poverty, drug addiction, human trafficking, slavery by pimps, and all tied into threats of violence and actual violence. All grossly serious sins condemned by the Holy Father by the way. He is not so naive as to think the problem will go away without attacking the root causes.

Do you honestly believe that simply telling a prostitute to stop and go to confession will get him/her off the streets?

Of course it won’t, and that’s why a prostitute enslaved to drugs and a pimp may be closer to a state of grace than someone sitting by a cozy fire who rejects magesterial teaching on the possibility that someone in such a situation might be in a state of grace.

And it’s why the Holy Father urges us to go to the margins of society to meet people in these and other terrible circumstances. First, obviously, to bring as much succour as we can. But secondly, to push us out of our comfort zone and stop us from saying “thank you God, that I am not like that miserable sinner over there”. And thus to make us realize we need to be agents of social change that promote and implement the Church’s social policy wherever we can. That is what evangelization is. It isn’t exhorting and commanding, nor proseletyzing. It is being on the margins helping, learning and listening, voting responsibly, and attending to our own needs and that of our loved ones so we or our loved ones don’t experience such a fall.

My wife is a family doctor, and she sees this kind of human misery every day. Incest, addictions, mental illness, sexually transmitted diseases, broken families etc., a list longer than your arm. The one very striking thing she once told me: humans are very fragile beings,and if only we knew how easy it is for an upstanding person to hit a personal crisis that pushes him or her out to the margins. There but for the grace of God go I.

 

[zz912]

Its called critical scholarship ZZ.

Blackboxes aren’t black.
Is it shifting the goalposts to try and inform you they are bright orange?
We will never understand Catholic Teaching if we think words and phrases don’t mean different things at different times, in different places, when used by different groups and when translated from other languages.

You either get it or you don’t so no point discussing this further with you sorry.

We poor plebeians will never comprehend your greatness and brilliance?

 

[zz912]

ZZ completely non imputable transgressions of grave matter may certainly be a manifestation of current personal imperfections. But if they are not even venial sins, which the CCC states is possible, then no extra purgation is required than what is already required to remove the pre-existing imperfection.

And imperfections that rarely cause venial sins in a particular person may not even need purgation. They may be extrinsic to the soul which may well be spotless. Its a debatable point methinks.

Your confusion over what I stated, and of the CCC, is boldened above.
“Committing grave sin” and “committing grave matter” are NOT the same thing and NOT what I stated.

This is the repeated error on this thread that lay people on CAF repeatedly fall into and I am afraid you are no exception in this case.

BTW Moral Theologians do not normally speak of “committing” Grave Matter but rather “engaging in”. The word “committing” is strictly speaking reserved for a complete moral (or immoral) act. Usually for an actual mortal sin (and venial sin).
This is because “committing” implies full imputability.

Please give the citation for this claim of yours.

If we have committed sinful actions that are, because of missing either full knowledge or willful intent, not either mortally or venially sinful, we must still be purged of our attachment to those sins.

Even for the serious drug addict, they LIKE and are attached to the sensation of being high. Or else they wouldn’t do it. So their attachment to such must be purged before entering Heaven.

I have cited Catholic teaching that purgatory purifies us of temporal effects of our sins AND our attachment to sins. Where is your citation that this attachment needs no purging?

 

[zz912]

I think you have lost track of the issue on this thread.

The issue is whether ALL people who regularly do grave wrong are without sanctifying grace.
Obviously their deeds are wrong.

Or in other words, such people even if not responsible still need to be restrained depending on the gravity of the wrong doing. If not responsible they should really be placed in a secure health institution rather than a prision.

Unfortunately most countries don’t have resources for this so they go to prision.
Yet they are there more because they are “mad” or “sad” than “bad”.

So using your standard, then it is imperative that at some point the Church and those in the Church must inform active homosexuals that they must stop committing the grievous sins of sodomy and homosexual acts. And not telling them such would be wrong.

 

[zz912]

And it’s why the Holy Father urges us to go to the margins of society to meet people in these and other terrible circumstances. First, obviously, to bring as much succour as we can. But secondly, to push us out of our comfort zone and stop us from saying “thank you God, that I am not like that miserable sinner over there”. And thus to make us realize we need to be agents of social change that promote and implement the Church’s social policy wherever we can. That is what evangelization is. It isn’t exhorting and commanding, nor proseletyzing. It is being on the margins helping, learning and listening, voting responsibly, and attending to our own needs and that of our loved ones so we or our loved ones don’t experience such a fall.

Nope. The corporal works of mercy are an outgrowth of the Church’s true mission, proclaiming Jesus. If the corporal works of mercy supersede or supplant proclaiming Jesus, then the Church becomes nothing more than just another NGO or nonprofit.

 

[zz912]

Pope Francis has already given you the answer in AL.
You are free to privately disagree if you are sincere and still remain in a state of grace…just as is the case with some prostitutes and no doubt many long-time faithful gay couples.

Does God want people to remain in a state of committing grave matter? Yes or no answer please.

 

[OraLabora]

Nope. The corporal works of mercy are an outgrowth of the Church’s true mission, proclaiming Jesus. If the corporal works of mercy supersede or supplant proclaiming Jesus, then the Church becomes nothing more than just another NGO or nonprofit.

Disagree. I’m not going to argue with you. My approach is thoroughly Benedictine. Evangelize through deeds, not talk. There are different approaches, which provided are carefully done can be valid. I use that of the charism of the order I am associated with through oblation.

 

[graciew]

We poor plebeians will never comprehend your greatness and brilliance?

Back off.
We are more than fortunate having her as others helping us out.
Say thank you and turn to your priest if you do not understand. She has no obligatiion to be toiling to explain things.
This is boiling down to the basics of education:
Please and thank you.

 

[Seamus_L]

I think alot of people would simply like to know, exactly what Cardinal Marx believes about homosexuality.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I think alot of people would simply like to know, exactly what Cardinal Marx believes about homosexuality.

Wouldn’t that be nice? Wouldn’t that be a refreshing way for anyone to communicate?

 

[zz912]

Back off.
We are more than fortunate having her as others helping us out.
Say thank you and turn to your priest if you do not understand. She has no obligatiion to be toiling to explain things.
This is boiling down to the basics of education:
Please and thank you.

No. If people choose to keep making rude, condescending insults to others on these boards, they should be prepared for someone to call them out on it. That was at least her fourth or fifth snide and nasty insult made in just the last few pages. She even insulted another poster’s parents earlier.

Don’t expect others to quietly accept nastiness and insults.