Cardinal Marx: Church should see positive aspects of homosexual relationships [CWN]

[JosieN]

I guess it depends on what you are learning.

There is much condemnation and judgement for those who wish to follow the rules. Rules of God.

If a homosexual posts about how they feel outside of the church and don’t understand why the church is against sodomy. We are quick to preach mercy. To point to how the CCC says we should not discriminate. We are slow, perhaps even reluctant to provide the truth to them. We almost bury it and dismiss it as part of old documents from old times from old people. We are ashamed of our Lord’s wish for a holy people. We fear being labeled mean more than we fear for souls.

Now, should someone post about rules, about right and wrong, about commands and following them we scream “Pharisee!” And we talk down to them, we treat them without the very mercy we claim to have.

Imagine if the way people have talked to those they call “Pharisee” was the same way we talked to homosexuals, or any sinner. We would be kicked off the boards.

Until the time we treat each person with the same respect and preach the truth fairly to each WE are the hypocrites and we are not preaching the gospel.

People die and people have died for the gospel. But it would seem our anger, our contempt and our willingness to chastise only pertains to those who wish the commands be heeded and the teachings proclaimed.

It’s a joke. A sad, sad joke of our modern thought process.

 

[tseleehw]

You’re missing the third element of mortal sin: full consent of the will. To a large extent that depends on the degree to which we are enslaved to our passions, whether they be sex, alcohol, or drugs. It is perhaps possible to be invincibly ignorant if outside the Church, but within it I agree that it would be a pretty rare person indeed who isn’t well aware of Church teaching on homosexuality. A poorly formed conscience may disagree of course but that’s another issue.

However enslavement to passions is something every penitent is at risk of developing, and any confessor will take this into consideration. As CS Lewis once said more or less along these lines: God gives far more credit to a sex addict giving up sex one single time than to a person who never experienced that passion and never fell into that sin. Of course we all have our passions or blind spots, you could call me a potatochipaholic, but at least it isn’t grave matter (yet). But for someone who is deeply attached to grave sin, all I can say is “there but for the grace of God go I”. I’ve never experienced same-sex attraction, so I can’t win any points for not falling into that sin. But I do know how devilishly difficult it is to avoid potato chips (and the impact on my weight!), and I’ll never condemn a homosexual for experiencing the same level of attachment to his or her sin even if it is grave matter.

It really is a matter for them to work out first in their conscience, and then if they feel a spark drawing them into the Church, with their confessor. My experience with addiction, and my physician wife would corroborate this, is that before someone seeks help they have to hit rock bottom. You can’t exhort an alcoholic to give up the drink and it’s the same with disordered addiction to sex.

Thanks, this is a very helpful explanation. I think that people’s issue with the Cardinal’s statements is that he seems to go beyond this and people are fearful that he is leading people to believe that they do not need to concern themselves with their sins (which is understandable given the vagueness of his comments, IMO). But the way you have explained it makes sense to me and I agree with everything you say.

 

[PRmerger]

My ignore list is not too long but it seems any who I segregate there seem to eventually not be part of CAF any longer. Some do though.

Funny that you should say that! I was just musing about this the other day–it does seem that almost everyone I put on “ignore” ends up either being banned or suspended.

I think it’s pretty obvious to everyone, mods and regular posters here, who is snarky and condescending and needs to be suspended or banned.

At any rate, those who propose that homosexual attractions aren’t objectively disordered and can be embraced have endorsed a view contrary to the kerygma.

No matter how the teaching is twisted, it is to one’s own destruction to propose a view contrary to the Good News.

 

[JimG]

I understand how enslavement to passions can weaken full consent of the will. That is true of any habitual sin. It seems a rather new thing to me however, that I should cite enslavement to passion as a reason to continue indefinitely in my sin. We are all enslaved to passion in some manner or other. It would seem that the greater our enslavement, the less our culpability. Perhaps we never need to go to confession again. To me, this works against the spiritual life rather than for it.

 

[graciew]

I guess it depends on what you are learning.

There is much condemnation and judgement for those who wish to follow the rules. Rules of God.

If a homosexual posts about how they feel outside of the church and don’t understand why the church is against sodomy. We are quick to preach mercy. To point to how the CCC says we should not discriminate. We are slow, perhaps even reluctant to provide the truth to them. We almost bury it and dismiss it as part of old documents from old times from old people. We are ashamed of our Lord’s wish for a holy people. We fear being labeled mean more than we fear for souls.

Now, should someone post about rules, about right and wrong, about commands and following them we scream “Pharisee!” And we talk down to them, we treat them without the very mercy we claim to have.

Imagine if the way people have talked to those they call “Pharisee” was the same way we talked to homosexuals, or any sinner. We would be kicked off the boards.

Until the time we treat each person with the same respect and preach the truth fairly to each WE are the hypocrites and we are not preaching the gospel.

People die and people have died for the gospel. But it would seem our anger, our contempt and our willingness to chastise only pertains to those who wish the commands be heeded and the teachings proclaimed.

It’s a joke. A sad, sad joke of our modern thought process.

I used a visual. Anyone can understand that visual.In fact I wasn t even thinking of pharisees.
And as far as modern thought is concerned,let us give it a start.
I d like to know what you know,understand and can do. This s called positive achievement. We will build from there together.
Unless you would like me to dictate two hundred words and take a point off for each mistake,grading from 1/to 10 being ten the best.

Grade my work now.If you please.And let me know your criteria for grading next time. I ll do my best for the next time.
And I mean well.

 

[graciew]

No matter how the teaching is twisted, it is to one’s own destruction to propose a view contrary to the Good News.

Could you share the Good News to us?
What is the Good News?

 

[PRmerger]

Could you share the Good News to us?
What is the Good News?

I’m confused by your question.

Are you being coy?

You list your religion as “Catholic”…if your religion were “Muslim” or “none” I might understand.

But in this context, I don’t understand what you mean.

 

[graciew]

I’m confused by your question.

Are you being coy?

You list your religion as “Catholic”…if your religion were “Muslim” or “none” I might understand.

But in this context, I don’t understand what you mean.

I do not know what coy is.
And neither do I understand what you understand as Good News ?
It might sound absurd,but I d like to know your thought on how to present it.

Yes,I am catholic.

 

[PRmerger]

I do not know what coy is.
And neither do I understand what you understand as Good News ?
It might sound absurd,but I d like to know your thought on how to present it.

Yes,I am catholic.

Can you first explain to me how you don’t know what the Good News is as a Catholic?

 

[PRmerger]

I do not know what coy is.

[coy
adj

1. (usually of a woman) affectedly demure, esp in a playful or provocative manner
2. shy; modest
3. evasive, esp in an annoying way](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/coy)

 

[graciew]

Can you first explain to me how you don’t know what the Good News is as a Catholic?

We are sharing the Good News.
Here is how I would present it : God loves us.
How would you present it.?
This is not about content which we both know but how best to briefly present the Good News.
I am with you,not against you.

 

[OraLabora]

I understand how enslavement to passions can weaken full consent of the will. That is true of any habitual sin. It seems a rather new thing to me however, that I should cite enslavement to passion as a reason to continue indefinitely in my sin. We are all enslaved to passion in some manner or other. It would seem that the greater our enslavement, the less our culpability. Perhaps we never need to go to confession again. To me, this works against the spiritual life rather than for it.

Where have I said that it should be a reason to continue indefinitely in one’s sin?

It is true that some make valiant efforts to overcome but fall repeatedly and there are the sacraments to help us with that. As my own confessor once said, God rewards the effort even if He has no illusions the result will always be perfect. God never tires of giving His forgiveness and grace to those who ask for it with sincere contrition, even if it is because of repeated failure on the same sin. That is Catholic teaching.

Some of course don’t yet recognize that it is something that needs to be overcome. The question is how to attract those people into the Church so that they may be converted at their own pace, as they gather (hopefully) strength with time. Spiritual training takes time, just like training for a race, and not everyone can train at the same pace.

While not all of us will win the race (I consider the saints to be those who did win), we all want to cross the finish line, or rather in biblical terms reach the gates of the New Jerusalem:

Our feet are standing within your gates, O Jerusalem.

(Ps. 122)

 

[PRmerger]

We are sharing the Good News.
Here is how I would present it : God loves us.
How would you present it.?

It depends upon the context.

This is not about content which we both know but how best to briefly present the Good News.

There is no way to explain how to “best” do this unless there is context.

I am with you,not against you.

We’re just having a forum discussion here, gracie. There’s going to be disagreements.

People who have mistaken notions will be enjoined to reconsider.

Sometimes, they hear the truth and are converted readily.

Sometimes, a seed is planted and it takes a bit of time to come to fruition.

But there is no need to take someone’s admonishment personally, if one has actually been brought closer to the truth of the kerygma.

 

[graciew]

It depends upon the context.

There is no way to explain how to “best” do this unless there is context.

We’re just having a forum discussion here, gracie. There’s going to be disagreements.

People who have mistaken notions will be enjoined to reconsider.

Sometimes, they hear the truth and are converted readily.

Sometimes, a seed is planted and it takes a bit of time to come to fruition.

But there is no need to take someone’s admonishment personally, if one has actually been brought closer to the truth of the kerygma.

I agree.
Just trying to be practical.
Trying to understand how difficult it must be to have the world as an audience and having all sorts of realities to address.As the Bishops and Pope.
And at the same time understanding the importance of having a sort of personal and individual care for each person .
I also guess that when in defensive mode,we pay less attention to the fact that we are in the same boat so as to speak . And rowing!

 

[Blue_Horizon]

I understand how enslavement to passions can weaken full consent of the will. That is true of any habitual sin. It seems a rather new thing to me however, that I should cite enslavement to passion as a reason to continue indefinitely in my sin. We are all enslaved to passion in some manner or other. It would seem that the greater our enslavement, the less our culpability. Perhaps we never need to go to confession again. To me, this works against the spiritual life rather than for it.

You have misunderstood the moral reasoning I think Jim.
There are two causes of amelioration of culpability.
One is addiction, the other is impaired understanding.
You have mixed the two in your musings above.
Clearly a graced person who sees grave matter as light (excessive drinking) or not even wrong will not see any good reason to take his wife’s concerns seriously.
Likewise one who is addicted but sees truly will not seriously protest his wife’s concerns.

However us stating that others who persist in wrong doing they may not be culpable of is not the same as you saying that of yourself. A good person in such a situation would of course sit in the back pew and beat his breast rather than think this way. So your alleged example turns into a bit of a caricature I think.

Of course both the above examples I suggest are also unlikely in the real world. Both weaknesses are usually found mixed together though one weakness usually predominates in good and bad alike.
Aquinas and most moralists believe that when it comes to the passions it is usually consent that is more impaired than understanding.

The fact is that while we may recognise grave objective wrong doing in others the only person we can judge as culpably sinning mortally is ourselves. And simply telling another they are doing wrong and walking away without lifting a finger to support or assist (aka accompanying) is what Jesus condemned in a certain type of person beginning with P and S.

As for your somewhat throw away statement re confession I think you know as well as I do that a good Catholic will confess deeds of grave matter whether they believe they are culpable or not.

 

[JimG]

Where have I said that it should be a reason to continue indefinitely in one’s sin?

It is true that some make valiant efforts to overcome but fall repeatedly and there are the sacraments to help us with that. As my own confessor once said, God rewards the effort even if He has no illusions the result will always be perfect. God never tires of giving His forgiveness and grace to those who ask for it with sincere contrition, even if it is because of repeated failure on the same sin. That is Catholic teaching.

Some of course don’t yet recognize that it is something that needs to be overcome. The question is how to attract those people into the Church so that they may be converted at their own pace, as they gather (hopefully) strength with time. Spiritual training takes time, just like training for a race, and not everyone can train at the same pace.

While not all of us will win the race (I consider the saints to be those who did win), we all want to cross the finish line, or rather in biblical terms reach the gates of the New Jerusalem:

(Ps. 122)

No, you haven’t said that enslavement to passion should be a reason to continue in sin. And I agree that enslavement to passion reduces culpability in that one’s will is weakened. What worries me is the implications of this for the average Catholic. The more I am enslaved to sin, the less culpable I become, so rather than trying to reduce my enslavement I am tempted to ignore it for the very reason that it mitigates my culpability. Ultimately, it becomes a way of reducing my guilt to zero, thereby leaving me enslaved to my passions.

Frequent confession is often recommended to one so enslaved to passion. But if the guilt is mitigated one might see confession as unnecessary. But it would be rather dangerous ground not to recommend frequent confession in such cases.

As to full knowledge, any Catholic involved in an ongoing serious moral fault would have to be nearly deliberately ignoring Catholic teaching in order to not be aware of it. And yet I do not doubt that some are either unaware of it or ignore it in many cases, as is seen in the continued popularity of cohabitatiion. I guess that the remedy might lie with more priests like St. John Vianney.

 

[johnnyc176]

Now, should someone post about rules, about right and wrong, about commands and following them we scream “Pharisee!” And we talk down to them, we treat them without the very mercy we claim to have. .

Well that is by design. It is a tactic that liberals use. No matter how charitable one is in proclaiming the Truth of Jesus Christ and His Church, the Catholic Church they will be called hater, homophobic, intolerant and any other name calling that seeks to bury the Truth in relativism. It is designed to shut you up and apparently it is working very well as we are reduced to apologizing for the teachings of Jesus and helping to ‘form consciences’ that will vote for an anti Catholic liberal political ideology that is laying waste to life issues A - Z.

 

[irenaeus1]

Could you share the Good News to us?
What is the Good News?

A good summary of the Good News is prayed at every Preface just prior to the Eucharistic Prayer. For example,

It is truly right and just, our duty and our salvation,
always and everywhere to give you thanks,
Lord, holy Father, almighty and eternal God,
through Christ our Lord.

For out of compassion for the waywardness that is ours,
he humbled himself and was born of the Virgin;
by the passion of the Cross he freed us from unending death,
and by rising from the dead he gave us life eternal.

And so, with Angels and Archangels,
with Thrones and Dominions,
and with all the hosts and Powers of heaven,
we sing the hymn of your glory,
as without end we acclaim:

Holy, Holy, Holy Lord God of hosts . .

or

For you so loved the world
that in your mercy you sent us the Redeemer,
to live like us in all things but sin,
so that you might love in us what you loved in your Son,
by whose obedience we have been restored to those gifts of yours
that, by sinning, we had lost in disobedience.

or

For when your children were scattered afar by sin,
through the Blood of your Son and the power of the Spirit,
you gathered them again to yourself,
that a people, formed as one by the unity of the Trinity,
made the body of Christ and the temple of the Holy Spirit,
might, to the praise of your manifold wisdom,
be manifest as the Church.

And there are numerous other Prefaces…

 

[graciew]

A good summary of the Good News is prayed at every Preface just prior to the Eucharistic Prayer. For example,

It is truly right and just, our duty and our salvation,
always and everywhere to give you thanks,
Lord, holy Father, almighty and eternal God,
through Christ our Lord.

For out of compassion for the waywardness that is ours,
he humbled himself and was born of the Virgin;
by the passion of the Cross he freed us from unending death,
and by rising from the dead he gave us life eternal.

And so, with Angels and Archangels,
with Thrones and Dominions,
and with all the hosts and Powers of heaven,
we sing the hymn of your glory,
as without end we acclaim:

Holy, Holy, Holy Lord God of hosts . .

or

For you so loved the world
that in your mercy you sent us the Redeemer,
to live like us in all things but sin,
so that you might love in us what you loved in your Son,
by whose obedience we have been restored to those gifts of yours
that, by sinning, we had lost in disobedience.

or

For when your children were scattered afar by sin,
through the Blood of your Son and the power of the Spirit,
you gathered them again to yourself,
that a people, formed as one by the unity of the Trinity,
made the body of Christ and the temple of the Holy Spirit,
might, to the praise of your manifold wisdom,
be manifest as the Church.

And there are numerous other Prefaces…

Ok Ireneus!!
If I was ever given the job ,you would be great for an advanced level. This is beautiful !

 

[graciew]

Well that is by design. It is a tactic that liberals use. No matter how charitable one is in proclaiming the Truth of Jesus Christ and His Church, the Catholic Church they will be called hater, homophobic, intolerant and any other name calling that seeks to bury the Truth in relativism. It is designed to shut you up and apparently it is working very well as we are reduced to apologizing for the teachings of Jesus and helping to ‘form consciences’ that will vote for an anti Catholic liberal political ideology that is laying waste to life issues A - Z.

There is no room for politics in here,sorry.
This is just Catholic.
Anything positive to share ,welcomei!