Cardinal Marx: Church should see positive aspects of homosexual relationships [CWN]

[Blue_Horizon]

Let’s use an example to show the error in your thinking. A man committing serial adultery but is missing one of the other two required components to make it mortal sin. He doesn’t stop committing this adultery. He is obviously attached to the grave matter. He enjoys it. Adultery is wrong. Then he dies. He has no mortal sin nor venial sin from this adultery. But he has an attachment to it. Does he need to be purified before entering Heaven? Does he need to realize what he has done wrong and be purged of his love for this grave matter? Yes or no answers please.

I never mentioned anything about restraining someone. I stated the Church and those in the Church, per your standard, must at some point inform the person they must stop their grave matter. Do you agree with this statement, yes or no?

If I have an opportunity to speak with a heavy drinker, and I’m in a position of trust and openness where I can, I most certainly mention to them that they must moderate or end their drinking. It’s a spiritual work of mercy to do so. What good and faithful Catholic would not?

Why are you unable to answer my question with a yes or no? I disagree with your interpretation of the words of Jesus as somehow encouraging people in ignoring His moral law. Please just answer my question with a yes or no. Does God want people to remain in a situation of continuing to commit grave matter? yes or no?

You may have missed post #503.

 

[JosieN]

I know it definitely isn’t teaching that why I’m quite frustrated with it. Too many conservatives are more concerned with “truth telling” and appearing to be a good “traditionalist Catholic” than in actually doing things that result in the saving souls. When someone’s “truth telling” is so bad in order to satisfy their ego it isn’t just wrong, it is immoral.

Do you really believe this is true?

Well that is by design. It is a tactic that liberals use. No matter how charitable one is in proclaiming the Truth of Jesus Christ and His Church, the Catholic Church they will be called hater, homophobic, intolerant and any other name calling that seeks to bury the Truth in relativism. It is designed to shut you up and apparently it is working very well as we are reduced to apologizing for the teachings of Jesus and helping to ‘form consciences’ that will vote for an anti Catholic liberal political ideology that is laying waste to life issues A - Z.

I would add “conservatives” to that list of names.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Do you really believe this is true?

I would add “conservatives” to that list of names.

Well, it is complicated, there is what people are doing and what people think they are doing. In a lot of cases they seem to genuinely think they saving souls, but their attempted evangelization only pushes people further from God.

 

[OraLabora]

their attempted evangelization only pushes people further from God.

For which they will have to answer for on judgement day.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

For which they will have to answer for on judgement day.

It really is baffling how some prefer reading older Catechisms to understanding why the Church teaches what it does. A lot of LGBT people have been seriously hurt by people in the name of God so they need to be shown love before they’ll stop thinking that Christians are hateful. If they think Christians worship a hateful God why would they care what a Christian claims God hates?

 

[JosieN]

It really is baffling how some prefer reading older Catechisms to understanding why the Church teaches what it does.

I am the one who said I was going to read an older Catechism so I think you may be pointing your finger and shaking it at me. I think that is what the Pharisees and Scribes did to try to shame those who they thought were not good enough. Am I a bad person for believing what has been taught for 2000 years in the Catholic Church, and trying to hold true to it?

The devil knows our weaknesses, so to build up our defenses we need the love and guidance of Jesus Christ, the words of the Bible, and the words of the saints to keep us on the right path. I think an older version of the Catechism will do exactly that.

A lot of LGBT people have been seriously hurt by people in the name of God so they need to be shown love before they’ll stop thinking that Christians are hateful. If they think Christians worship a hateful God why would they care what a Christian claims God hates?

Do you think I would purposely hurt a LGBT person by telling them hateful mean things? Never in my life have I done this, and if I make a statement on this forum, I will I usually back it up with a quote from the Bible to support it. I may ask too many questions for your liking, and I may give my own opinion once in awhile, but I usually state that it is just my opinion.

A Bible quote for you:

Take care, brothers, that none of you may have an evil and unfaithful heart, so as to forsake the living God. Encourage yourselves daily while it is still “today,” so that none of you may be hardened by the deceit of sin. **Hebrews 3:12-13
**

 

[at9009]

I am the one who said I was going to read an older Catechism so I think you may be pointing your finger and shaking it at me. I think that is what the Pharisees and Scribes did to try to shame those who they thought were not good enough. Am I a bad person for believing what has been taught for 2000 years in the Catholic Church, and trying to hold true to it?

The devil knows our weaknesses, so to build up our defenses we need the love and guidance of Jesus Christ, the words of the Bible, and the words of the saints to keep us on the right path. I think an older version of the Catechism will do exactly that.

Do you think I would purposely hurt a LGBT person by telling them hateful mean things? Never in my life have I done this, and if I make a statement on this forum, I will I usually back it up with a quote from the Bible to support it. I may ask too many questions for your liking, and I may give my own opinion once in awhile, but I usually state that it is just my opinion.

A Bible quote for you:

Take care, brothers, that none of you may have an evil and unfaithful heart, so as to forsake the living God. Encourage yourselves daily while it is still “today,” so that none of you may be hardened by the deceit of sin. **Hebrews 3:12-13
**

That is not what the other poster is saying. What he is saying is more often than not, a lot of people simply tell LGBT people that the church teaches its a sin (sometimes without going in an effort to separate acts from inclination). They don’t often do it with grace or charity. It is not often that they reach out and try to show genuine love. What he is trying to say is basically 1 Cor 13. When LGBT only see Christians who attack them (and some of the more vocal minorities are rather hostile towards LGBT) just stating the church position about SSM or biblical passages and walking away isn’t going to help them find Christ or convince them.

That is what the poster is trying to say. It shouldn’t be taken as an attack and he himself also espouses to Catholic teaching on sexuality so I don’t see what you are feel its okay to accuse him of attacking you while basically doing the same thing to him. A far better approach would be to ask him to clarify what he means rather than assume and dig in one’s heels and prepare for yet another culture war mentality.

 

[johnnyc176]

Obviously a key mission given to the Catholic Church by Christ is the salvation of souls. The identification and condemnation of sin is necessary in carrying out that mission. Jesus did not ‘accompany’ the adulteress women very long before He told her to go and sin no more. Because sin is deadly.

Compassion for this life for sure but conversion is necessary for the next life. To be concerned about the state of someone’s soul is pastoral and loving. That is why Jesus gave us these spiritual works of mercy…

To instruct the ignorant
To counsel the doubtful
To admonish sinners

 

[PRmerger]

Obviously a key mission given to the Catholic Church by Christ is the salvation of souls. The identification and condemnation of sin is necessary in carrying out that mission. Jesus did not ‘accompany’ the adulteress women very long before He told her to go and sin no more. Because sin is deadly.

Compassion for this life for sure but conversion is necessary for the next life. To be concerned about the state of someone’s soul is pastoral and loving. That is why Jesus gave us these spiritual works of mercy…

To instruct the ignorant
To counsel the doubtful
To admonish sinners

We need liberals to have more head concern (for doctrines/truth) and conservatives to have more heart concern (for compassion/love).

Truth and Love.
Head and heart.

Best summary is from Peter Kreeft:

“For Christ, being perfect man, had a perfect head and a perfect heart, a perfectly hard head and a perfectly soft heart.”–The Two Most Revolutionary Verses in the Bible by Peter Kreeft

 

[PRmerger]

We need liberals to have more head concern (for doctrines/truth) and conservatives to have more heart concern (for compassion/love).

Truth and Love.
Head and heart.

Best summary is from Peter Kreeft:

“For Christ, being perfect man, had a perfect head and a perfect heart, a perfectly hard head and a perfectly soft heart.”–The Two Most Revolutionary Verses in the Bible by Peter Kreeft

More…

"The strong point of conservatives is that they conserve. They are faithful. They keep the faith. They are anchored in the faith. Their weak point is that they tend to be pugnacious and angry and graceless and merciless and loveless.

The strong point of liberals is their soft heart, their compassion. Their weak point is their soft head, their lack of principles, faith, fidelity, and anchors. They are strong on mercy, but weak on justice and on objective and unchanging moral principles—strong on love but weak on truth."–Peter Kreeft

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I am the one who said I was going to read an older Catechism so I think you may be pointing your finger and shaking it at me. I think that is what the Pharisees and Scribes did to try to shame those who they thought were not good enough. Am I a bad person for believing what has been taught for 2000 years in the Catholic Church, and trying to hold true to it?

The devil knows our weaknesses, so to build up our defenses we need the love and guidance of Jesus Christ, the words of the Bible, and the words of the saints to keep us on the right path. I think an older version of the Catechism will do exactly that.

It is extremely doubtful that reading an older Catechism would help you spiritually. For example the Church has adopted more nuanced positions, while suicide is still considered a grave matter the Church no longer denies people who committed suicide burial due to our increased understanding of mental illness and how it affects consent.

Do you think I would purposely hurt a LGBT person by telling them hateful mean things? Never in my life have I done this, and if I make a statement on this forum, I will I usually back it up with a quote from the Bible to support it. I may ask too many questions for your liking, and I may give my own opinion once in awhile, but I usually state that it is just my opinion.

A Bible quote for you:

Take care, brothers, that none of you may have an evil and unfaithful heart, so as to forsake the living God. Encourage yourselves daily while it is still “today,” so that none of you may be hardened by the deceit of sin. **Hebrews 3:12-13
**

No, I don’t think you would deliberately hurt an LGBT person, problem is intent≠impact.

Obviously a key mission given to the Catholic Church by Christ is the salvation of souls. The identification and condemnation of sin is necessary in carrying out that mission. Jesus did not ‘accompany’ the adulteress women very long before He told her to go and sin no more. Because sin is deadly.

Compassion for this life for sure but conversion is necessary for the next life. To be concerned about the state of someone’s soul is pastoral and loving. That is why Jesus gave us these spiritual works of mercy…

To instruct the ignorant
To counsel the doubtful
To admonish sinners

Jesus had already established rapport with her, he literally saved her life, because he had rapport she listened.

 

[irenaeus1]

Jesus had already established rapport with her, he literally saved her life, because he had rapport she listened.

So will Cardinal Marx, after having established rapport with a same-sex couple, admonish the couple to go and sin no more?

 

[PRmerger]

Jesus had already established rapport with her, he literally saved her life, because he had rapport she listened.

Or, because he spoke the truth in love she listened.

 

[irenaeus1]

It is extremely doubtful that reading an older Catechism would help you spiritually.

Would you say the same with regard to reading the New Testament? It’s quite older than an ‘older’ Catechism.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Would you say the same with regard to reading the New Testament? It’s quite older than an ‘older’ Catechism.

The New Testament is substantially different from a Catechism thus the age thing isn’t really relevant there

 

[irenaeus1]

The New Testament is substantially different from a Catechism thus the age thing isn’t really relevant there

I agree with you that it is substantially different. I was just curious because of your reference to ‘older’ and reference to the Church’s adoption of more nuanced positions, which could be applied to the NT as well. That’s all.

 

[JosieN]

Obviously a key mission given to the Catholic Church by Christ is the salvation of souls. The identification and condemnation of sin is necessary in carrying out that mission. Jesus did not ‘accompany’ the adulteress women very long before He told her to go and sin no more. Because sin is deadly.

Compassion for this life for sure but conversion is necessary for the next life. To be concerned about the state of someone’s soul is pastoral and loving. That is why Jesus gave us these spiritual works of mercy…

To instruct the ignorant
To counsel the doubtful
To admonish sinners

 

[JosieN]

AL 301:
The Church possesses a solid body of reflection concerning mitigating factors and situations. Hence it is can no longer simply be said that all those in any “irregular” situation are living in a state of mortal sin and are deprived of sanctifying grace. More is involved here than mere ignorance of the rule. A subject may know full well the rule, yet have great difficulty in understanding “its inherent values”,or be in a concrete situation which does not allow him or her to act differently and decide otherwise without further sin.

Though I fear this will still not convince you of the Catholic truth of what either the Pope or others here are trying to gently demonstrate to you.

Go with God on your faith journey.

Thank you, I appreciate your kind words, but as you say I may need further convincing, so I looked up the definition of irregular. This is what I found:

irregular: not conforming to establish rule, out of the ordinary, disorderly, not straight, erratic, having minor flaws or imperfections.

The word irregular means many things. If a person was referring to a certain type of irregular relationship, why wouldn’t they use a different word to describe it, perhaps a word that clearly defines what they mean?

 

[johnnyc176]

The New Testament is substantially different from a Catechism thus the age thing isn’t really relevant there

Well if the NT is different from the Catechism then we have a problem. God’s Word comes to us through Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the teaching Authority of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church was established long before the Bible was compiled…by the Catholic Church.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Thank you, I appreciate your kind words, but as you say I may need further convincing, so I looked up the definition of irregular. This is what I found:

irregular: not conforming to establish rule, out of the ordinary, disorderly, not straight, erratic, having minor flaws or imperfections.

The word irregular means many things. If a person was referring to a certain type of irregular relationship, why wouldn’t they use a different word to describe it, perhaps a word that clearly defines what they mean?

Most people here would have no trouble understanding what Pope Francis means by the word Josie. Try not to over think it.