Cardinal Marx: Church should see positive aspects of homosexual relationships [CWN]

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Something can be wrong and sinful even without it rising to the level of mortal sin.
Yes, of course, there are degrees of sin. We distinguish mortal from venial sin. All sin has bad consequences. And nobody is perfect, so bad consequences are always with us. But when wrong is not recognized as wrong, or worse, is promoted as a good, the consequences for society are more serious. Children–and adults–can recognize right from wrong long before they learn the nuances of moral theology and culpability. We teach them right from wrong, and ought to do the same for adults as well. I think that catechesis has perhaps been somewhat lacking in that basic task in recent decades.
 
The irony of course is that those who reject the Church’s current teaching on sin and culpability for mortal sin, are putting themselves every bit as much outside of Church teaching as the gays they accuse of not accepting Church teaching on the sinfulness of sex outside of marriage, gay or otherwise.

If you or JosieN want to apply stricter personal standards to your own sins then that is your affair though I would strongly recommend getting a spiritual advisor before doing so; but when one starts espousing those personal opinions as Truth and as above the Church’s current teaching which is accused of being “watered down” or “confusing”, then we have a problem. A big problem, dare I say a bigger problem than gays so attached to their own temptation that they can’t recognize that there is a higher moral level to aspire to. Because that incorrect understanding of sin and culpability is likely to be a major impediment to getting gays (and any other sinner) to accept entering a life-long conversion process towards moral perfection.

Rejecting Church teaching on sin boils down to cafeteria Catholicism no different than the kind “liberals” are being accused of.

I would also strongly advise some good reading on the heresy of Jansenism.
 
In other words you are unable to support your, to me, erroneous personal assertions with a Magisterial source when challenged to do so.
Careful, Blue.

It’s good for you to be here and in dialogue with knowledgeable Catholics.

So I’d be a little bit more judicious and cautious about how you present your arguments and challenges.

At any rate, I will offer the proof after you do the same.

Otherwise, it would be irresponsible of you to demand a standard for a CAF poster which you yourself cannot keep.

So can you offer the Magisterial source that declares, as you have asserted: “[W]e never see a mortal sin, we only see someone engaging in grave matter.”
No. Of course a mortal sin condemns to hell if you want to put it that way.
But we never see a mortal sin, we only see someone engaging in grave matter.
Someone may regularly engage in grave matter and for various reasons still be well within God’s loving arms.

Our relationship with God is not a military one based on bodily purity but purity of heart.
Sometimes our heart/attention is not driving our body fully enough to be made impure by our outward deeds.
Sin in its deepest sense has to be a “human act” not an “action of a human”.
The two sound the same but in they are very very different before God.
And please answer why my source must be 50 years old or younger.
 
. Now, it appears we can make up all sorts of reasons why it was not as bad a sin as it really was, without any fear of eternal consequences.
Why do you recurrently appeal to hell and fear?
There is something missing here,something that does not fall in its place and it rattles me.
 
The irony of course is that those who reject the Church’s current teaching on sin and culpability for mortal sin, are putting themselves every bit as much outside of Church teaching as the gays they accuse of not accepting Church teaching on the sinfulness of sex outside of marriage, gay or otherwise.

If you or JosieN want to apply stricter personal standards to your own sins then that is your affair though I would strongly recommend getting a spiritual advisor before doing so; but when one starts espousing those personal opinions as Truth and as above the Church’s current teaching which is accused of being “watered down” or “confusing”, then we have a problem. A big problem, dare I say a bigger problem than gays so attached to their own temptation that they can’t recognize that there is a higher moral level to aspire to. Because that incorrect understanding of sin and culpability is likely to be a major impediment to getting gays (and any other sinner) to accept entering a life-long conversion process towards moral perfection.

Rejecting Church teaching on sin boils down to cafeteria Catholicism no different than the kind “liberals” are being accused of.

I would also strongly advise some good reading on the heresy of Jansenism.
:sad_yes:
 
Something can be wrong and sinful even without it rising to the level of mortal sin.

The Catechism only goes so far, it is a compilation of rules basically, but they all come from somewhere else and you find them in things like papal encyclicals, Church Councils and Apostolic Constitutions.
And Scripture. Don’t forget Sacred Scripture. The CCC references the Scripture like it’s going out of style.
 
Why do you recurrently appeal to hell and fear?
There is something missing here,something that does not fall in its place and it rattles me.
Read this

todayscatholicworld.com/no-pardon-liguori.htm

What do you think? Are we in need of repentance or should we just go on denying any serious wrong doings and believe that there are no eternal consequences for our sins? This life is temporary, the rewards here will only last a short while, eternity is forever.
 
Read this

todayscatholicworld.com/no-pardon-liguori.htm

What do you think? Are we in need of repentance or should we just go on denying any serious wrong doings and believe that there are no eternal consequences for our sins? This life is temporary, the rewards here will only last a short while, eternity is forever.
Note: I do not usually read todayscatholicworld.com, it is very radical, but today I wanted to share this well known saints sermon to reveal the seriousness of sin. When you search for something on the internet sometimes you never know where it came from until you have posted it. My apologies if the source offended anyone.
 
The Church opposes gay marriage because it is against divine revelation, i.e., the word of God, Sacred Scripture; the institution of marriage which is from God - “God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them” (Gen. 1: 27; cf. also Gen. 2:24); and the natural law and natural reason. God instituted marriage as between one man and one woman and it is obvious that only a man and a woman can produce offspring naturally. For more concerning the divine institution of marriage, confer Holy Scripture, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, other church documents and ecumenical councils, and the Tradition of the Church. For the time being, I’d like to focus and make some comments on the words below.

In one sense, I believe intrinsically disordered and objectively disordered have the same sort of meaning. More specifically, in another sense, intrinsically disordered and objectively disordered can refer I think to different aspects of human actions and the moral law. In both cases, that is, intrinsically disordered and objectively disordered human actions are simply bad or evil, i.e., a sin. Objectively disordered human actions I believe refer to the object chosen, the species or kind of sin. Intrinsically disordered human actions I think refers to acting against human nature. All vice and sin is contrary to human nature where as virtue and good acts are in accord with human nature.

The CCC#1750 states that the morality of human acts depends on (1) the object chosen; (2) the end in view or the intention; and (3) the circumstances of the action. Now, there are some kinds of human acts " which, in and of themselves, independently of circumstances and intentions, are always gravely illicit by reason of their object #1 above]; such as blasphemy and perjury, murder and adultery. One may not do evil so that good may result from it" (CCC#1756). Such human acts are objectively disordered by reason of their object. The catechism will go on in the exposition of the Ten Commandments to list quite a number of other objectively disordered human acts which regardless of the circumstances and intention are simply evil or bad. Such human acts can no wise be made good because of circumstances or intention. “The object of the choice can by itself vitiate an act in its entirety”(CCC#1755). "An evil end corrupts the action, even if the object is good in itself (such as praying and fasting “in order to be seen by men”)(ibid.).

“The circumstances, including the consequences, are secondary elements of a moral act. They contribute to increasing or diminishing the moral goodness or evil of human acts (for example, the amount of a theft). They can also diminish or increase the agent’s responsibility (such as acting out of a fear of death). Circumstances of themselves cannot change the moral quality of acts themselves; they can make neither good nor right an action that is in itself evil.” (ibid. #1754).

“A morally good act requires the goodness of the object, of the end, and of the circumstances together” (ibid. #1755).

truncated due to size restrictions on posts
So marriages is about making babies? What about love, is love not necessary for marriage?

Intrinsically disordered refers to actions that are always wrong to choose, so adultery is always wrong, but sex is not. Objectively disordered doesn’t refer to actions, it refers to attractions/temptations of which the object is intrinsically disordered and the attraction is not sinful, the action is. So, how far is homosexuality objectively disordered? Understanding the difference between objectively disordered and to what degree homosexuality is objectively disordered is very important towards interacting with LGB people.

Also figure out how you can make it more easily understood by a pagan you might wish to convert.
Careful, Blue.

It’s good for you to be here and in dialogue with knowledgeable Catholics.

So I’d be a little bit more judicious and cautious about how you present your arguments and challenges.

At any rate, I will offer the proof after you do the same.

Otherwise, it would be irresponsible of you to demand a standard for a CAF poster which you yourself cannot keep.

So can you offer the Magisterial source that declares, as you have asserted: “[W]e never see a mortal sin, we only see someone engaging in grave matter.”

And please answer why my source must be 50 years old or younger.
I really don’t understand why the Church would say such a thing or why it would be necessary to their point.
Wasn t " the mission is to love" the heading of Deus Caritas est?
A sense of mission…
No, it is “Of Christian Love” with Deus Caritas Est translating as God is Love (which is not be misunderstood as Love is God).
 
The irony of course is that those who reject the Church’s current teaching on sin and culpability for mortal sin, are putting themselves every bit as much outside of Church teaching as the gays they accuse of not accepting Church teaching on the sinfulness of sex outside of marriage, gay or otherwise.
“The Church’s current teaching? Has the Church’s teaching on sin and culpability changed? As far as I can see, the conditions for culpability for mortal sin have not changed, but remain the same as ever. Has grave matter changed? Is what once was grave matter no longer grave matter? Have some sins been marked down from major to minor? Have some been marked up from minor to major? If so, I was unaware of it. Does the Church no longer teach that some actions are objectively wrong?
.
I don’t have “personal standards” relating to sin and culpability. The teachings of the Church are my standards. Try to do good and to avoid evil. I have to admit that it’s harder now because the laxity of the culture has made standards easier to ignore. It’s affected me as much as anyone else.

Jansenism rejected the importance of free will and asserted that God’s grace was irresistible. That’s certainly not my position.
 
Read this

todayscatholicworld.com/no-pardon-liguori.htm

What do you think? Are we in need of repentance or should we just go on denying any serious wrong doings and believe that there are no eternal consequences for our sins? This life is temporary, the rewards here will only last a short while, eternity is forever.
I read those passages when I took a two year weekly course on discernment. We tried and look closely at discernment in Jesús.
And yes,we read the bible over and over, and knew the rules,and studied and we still read. A lot.
But theory had to go together with practice.And we learned on the go. And got a whole set of bruuses,why not…
I agree with you in the basics,only that it is a different perspective. And as I sense your haste,the driving force seems to be different .
 
So, how far is homosexuality objectively disordered? Understanding the difference between objectively disordered and to what degree homosexuality is objectively disordered is very important towards interacting with LGB people.
How is it “very important”?

If someone had an impoverished understanding of the “difference between objectively disordered and to what degree homosexuality is objectively disordered” but also understood fully that we must treat LGB people with love…how would this be bad?
I really don’t understand why the Church would say such a thing or why it would be necessary to their point.
Right. The Church never said such a thing.
 
How is it “very important”?

If someone had an impoverished understanding of the “difference between objectively disordered and to what degree homosexuality is objectively disordered” but also understood fully that we must treat LGB people with love…how would this be bad?

Right. The Church never said such a thing.
If you seek to convert them it is important
 
Note: I do not usually read todayscatholicworld.com, it is very radical, but today I wanted to share this well known saints sermon to reveal the seriousness of sin. When you search for something on the internet sometimes you never know where it came from until you have posted it. My apologies if the source offended anyone.
I get that. Give me a while,I will translate something for you so we can read,and pray!
 
If you seek to convert them it is important
Can you give us a concrete example of how someone who understands it’s important to treat LGB with respect and love but doesn’t fully understand the “difference between objectively disordered and to what degree homosexuality is objectively disordered”…wouldn’t be able to convert someone?
 
How is culpability defined? What does it mean to you? I think it can mean different things to different people. Also, how does anyone know that Jesus said that eternal consequences are not equally and rigidly linked in to non culpable wrong doings?
It’s all in the CCC. Start reading around 1735. Culpability is fairly straight forward and means being imputable or responsible for one’s free choices by God and receiving punishment or reward accordingly. God is not a Policeman or Customs officer who punishes people for deeds done regardless of intent or control.
Too many people say Jesus said this, or Jesus taught that, and do not back it up with His words, or any words from the Bible. I am curious to know where this teaching is in the Bible.
You won’t find the phrase “mortal sin” in the Bible either. In any case only Protestants look to the Bible alone for such teachings. Catholics also look to the Magisterium.
I was also wondering where in the Bible it says that a sin is not a grave sin if the the person had personal problems that prevented them from seeing the wrong they were doing, or they may have had too much stress at the time, or they may have been born with an addiction etc.?
The issue here is not grave sin (ie grave matter) but mortal sin.
Shouldn’t we go to God if these problems occur in our lives and ask for His help? I always thought when we were unsure of whether something was sinful that we should go to God in prayer for the answers, and if we did something bad and then realized it was wrong we would ask for His forgiveness. Now, it appears we can make up all sorts of reasons why it was not as bad a sin as it really was, without any fear of eternal consequences.
The issue is that older brother types try to label certain groups of people as outside of God’s grace when they may not be, simply on the basis of bad outward deeds. This is a travesty of Jesus’s teaching.
 
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