Cardinal Pell's Conviction Announced; Verdict on Appeal

[OraLabora]

Cardinal Pell’s defense attorney tried to minimize the crime by comparing it to plain vanilla.

Is he appealing or not? The lawyer’s comments make it sound that he is now admitting that Pell did indeed rape the child. It doesn’t sound to me like comments that are a solid foundation for an appeal! More like an appeal for a light sentence.

Sounds to me like he is, in fact, guilty. Another homophobe cleric who turns out to have had non-consensual sex with a young, same-sex, adolescent.

Sick, sick. sick.

 

[KMC]

I certainly think that The Church must get to the reason these endemic type crimes have occured. I find it almost impossible to get my head around the why’s of it all when priests are trained in moral theology in the seminary and they know the terrible moral consequences of mortal sin - particularly crimes against children.
We have to remember it is not a problem in our Catholic Church alone, it was a social problem at a particular time…and I am praying it is not still a social problem.

Whether celibacy is the primary cause is still being debated. Personally, I think it might be a cause but perhaps not the only cause. After all, we have far more celibate priests who are good and faithful priests who are celibate. I think it is up to these to have powerful (name removed by moderator)ut as to the difficulty of celibacy, or the lack of difficulty. I have been celibate for near on 40 years after 15 years of marriage. It was a struggle at first, but not after a few years…but then I am a woman not a man.
Temptation is intrinsic to human life. We can be sure Grace is with us sufficient to overcome temptation. Nowadays too there are many means of seeking advice and support if temptation gets or threatens to become too much.
Young men are in the seminary and celibate for quite a few years before they are ordained. They must surely be aware during their seminary years of any problems with the celibate state. If problems onset after ordination, again there has to be a reason.
I do know from conversations with priests that loneliness can be a problem especially today with our shortage of priests, but surely not sufficiently a problem to abuse children. No way. It is a problem however that many priests I think might suffer making their priestly life difficult.

I would suggest reading the John Jay Report. It specifically stated a celibate priesthood was not a cause, since there was a rise and fall of abuse cases from around 1950-2002, yet celibacy was a constant feature. Also consider that sex abuse incidence rates seem to be higher in the public school system which does not require a vow of celibacy

Forgotten Study: Abuse in School 100 Times Worse than by Priests - LifeSite

by LifeSiteNews.com

www.lifesitenews.com

Also, the Abel and Harlow Child Molestation Prevention Study states that “child molesters match the US population…in percentage married or formerly married…”
http://childmolestationprevention.org/pdfs/study.pdf

Other sources like Pedophiles and Priests by Philip Jenkins indicate the percentage of priests who are pedophiles (2%) matches the rate in the rest of society, which would be an indication that a celibate priesthood is not a factor in abuse.

Hope this information helps

 

[KMC]

While I want ALL guilty priests to be put in prison, I also want justice done. This case does seem sketchy.
Do you apply your standard (“If he was found guilty he is guilty”) to all legal cases? There are organizations dedicated to using DNA to exonerate innocent people found guilty like this one:

Innocence Project

We work to free the innocent, prevent wrongful convictions, and create fair, compassionate, and equitable systems of justice for everyone.

innocenceproject.org

Do you also maintain the guilt of those people convicted by “a legal system from a civilized country” in the face of exonerating evidence?

 

[KMC]

Cardinal George Pell of Australia found guilty of sexual abuse

The Pope just outlined a very vague 8 point plan to combat abuse. And accepting these facts has to be part of it. Many liked Pell. Politically. I did. I dont care one bit about that now. He needs to repent and do so publically

As I see it, in situations like this, bishops and priests have lost all credibility. You simply cannot trust them to tell the truth. You cannot trust their denials. You cannot give them the benefit of the doubt. This impacts even those who are totally innocent and I am sorry about that.

Unfortunately, the ordained clergy brought this upon themselves and it’s up to them to fix it. Until then, an entire generation of young Catholics will grow up shielded from priests and the sense of community will suffer.

guilty until proven innocent?

Would you want that standard applied to you?

 

[Luke6_37]

Luke6_37:

Cardinal George Pell of Australia found guilty of sexual abuse

The Pope just outlined a very vague 8 point plan to combat abuse. And accepting these facts has to be part of it. Many liked Pell. Politically. I did. I dont care one bit about that now. He needs to repent and do so publically

As I see it, in situations like this, bishops and priests have lost all credibility. You simply cannot trust them to tell the truth. You cannot trust their denials. You cannot give them the benefit of the doubt. This impacts even those who are totally innocent and I am sorry about that.

Unfortunately, the ordained clergy brought this upon themselves and it’s up to them to fix it. Until then, an entire generation of young Catholics will grow up shielded from priests and the sense of community will suffer.

guilty until proven innocent?

Would you want that standard applied to you?

Would I want my reputation or standing in society to be a factor in whether allegations of sexual misconduct on my part are taken seriously and vigorously investigated?

No.

 

[KMC]

KMC:

Luke6_37:

Cardinal George Pell of Australia found guilty of sexual abuse

The Pope just outlined a very vague 8 point plan to combat abuse. And accepting these facts has to be part of it. Many liked Pell. Politically. I did. I dont care one bit about that now. He needs to repent and do so publically

As I see it, in situations like this, bishops and priests have lost all credibility. You simply cannot trust them to tell the truth. You cannot trust their denials. You cannot give them the benefit of the doubt. This impacts even those who are totally innocent and I am sorry about that.

Unfortunately, the ordained clergy brought this upon themselves and it’s up to them to fix it. Until then, an entire generation of young Catholics will grow up shielded from priests and the sense of community will suffer.

guilty until proven innocent?

Would you want that standard applied to you?

Would I want my reputation or standing in society to be a factor in whether allegations of sexual misconduct on my part are taken seriously and vigorously investigated?

No.

I appreciate the answer to your own question, however, that is not what I asked.

Are you endorsing the idea that priests accused of horrible crimes are guilty until proven innocent (since you say “you cannot give them the benefit of the doubt” and “this impacts even those who are totally innocent”)? If “yes” would you want that standard applied to you.

 

[angel12]

guilty until proven innocent?
Would you want that standard applied to you?

This is going to be one of the effects of the decades of ignoring/covering up abuse – there will be no presumption of innocence for priests, not now, not for decades. God help those who are wrongly accused.

 

[Luke6_37]

Luke6_37:

KMC:

Luke6_37:

Cardinal George Pell of Australia found guilty of sexual abuse

The Pope just outlined a very vague 8 point plan to combat abuse. And accepting these facts has to be part of it. Many liked Pell. Politically. I did. I dont care one bit about that now. He needs to repent and do so publically

As I see it, in situations like this, bishops and priests have lost all credibility. You simply cannot trust them to tell the truth. You cannot trust their denials. You cannot give them the benefit of the doubt. This impacts even those who are totally innocent and I am sorry about that.

Unfortunately, the ordained clergy brought this upon themselves and it’s up to them to fix it. Until then, an entire generation of young Catholics will grow up shielded from priests and the sense of community will suffer.

guilty until proven innocent?

Would you want that standard applied to you?

Would I want my reputation or standing in society to be a factor in whether allegations of sexual misconduct on my part are taken seriously and vigorously investigated?

No.

I appreciate the answer to your own question, however, that is not what I asked.

Are you endorsing the idea that priests accused of horrible crimes are guilty until proven innocent (since you say “you cannot give them the benefit of the doubt” and “this impacts even those who are totally innocent”)? If “yes” would you want that standard applied to you.

I responded to you in a manner that accurately reflected what was said in my original comment.

You should know that the presumption of innocence has nothing to do with whether an accused person is “credible” or “trustworthy”, so I assumed your question was simply a transparent attempt at trolling - so I ignored it. I apologize if you genuinely have a problem with reading comprehension.

I then answered the only legitimate question you asked, which is what standard would I want to be applied to me, and by extension to all others as well.

 

[sj1611]

Why was Cardinal Pell afraid to take the stand and testify under oath?

This is extremely common in Australian criminal trials. It used to be common practice for criminal barristers to refuse to call their clients as witnesses unless they signed a declaration acknowledging that they had been advised not to give evidence. Even yesterday a QC (Queen’s Counsel = senior barrister) told me that when he was junior a judge once gave him this career advice: “Never, ever, let your client give evidence!”

I don’t know why Pell didn’t give evidence but I assume that it was on his barrister’s advice.

 

[sj1611]

The lawyer’s comments make it sound that he is now admitting that Pell did indeed rape the child.

Not at all.

These were the submissions, by the barrister, on sentence. They must acknowledge the fact of the conviction. That is not the same thing as acknowledging the correctness of the conviction.

Basically the barrister is saying “the punishment for this crime that he is convicted of (which he didn’t commit) should be x, not y”. He will be sentenced and start serving his sentence while the appeal is pending.

This is how criminal appeals always work. In Australia anyway.

 

[abucs]

I do not think it is a mere co-incidence that this has occurred in the church along the same timeline as the liberalising of sections of the church with respect to sex, discipline and sin.

 

[Gabika50]

Hopefully he will get the same support and attention as priests and religious that are similarly accused amd are not part of the episcopacy.

 

[BarbTh]

I do not think it is a mere co-incidence that this has occurred in the church along the same timeline as the liberalising of sections of the church with respect to sex, discipline and sin.

No matter what was happening in secular culture or in The Church, priests would know that sexual abuse of a child was most serious grave matter and potentially mortally sinful. There is absolutely no excuse whatsoever for these crimes and at no point whatsoever has The Church ever - even remotely - implied that such criminal acts were permissible/not mortally sinful. Certainly there was a certain culture of permissiveness post V2, which was not the fault of V2 but rather misinterpretations of The Council. Even in that “certain culture of permissiveness” the sexual abuse of a child was never viewed generally with any kind of permissiveness whatsoever.
During the French Revolution "a bishop might be thought smart if he made fun of dogmas and even insinuated that the existence of God was by no means certain " The church will become small
Perhaps for some reason there has been a loss of Faith in these criminal priests and if so, what has been the cause? Even if they did loose their Faith for some reason, why did they turn to sexual crimes against children? Did they conclude that there was no God and that the law would not catch up with them? Why did they turn to sexual perversion against the most vulnerable and innocent?
These are only questions and they may not be the right questions at all. I am very much aware of this.

 

[abucs]

No these are the right questions to ask. Other related questions to ask is why in some seminaries people looked the other way when clergy were having open sexual relations with each other and why in many seminaries the authority and accuracy of church traditions and teachings were undermined.

 

[BarbTh]

No these are the right questions to ask. Other related questions to ask is why in some seminaries people looked the other way when clergy were having open sexual relations with each other and why in many seminaries the authority and accuracy of church traditions and teachings were undermined.

Can you provide texts with links please?

 

[Gabika50]

You are correct; in the seminaries I attended (Catholic University and Mount Saint Mary’s) what you wrote was an accurate portrayal of the 1980’s and 1990’s. If you said something, you were told to mind your own business, pray and attend mass- good advice, but even after I was ordained, none of this appeared to be fixed (up until 2001) - I do not know about now…

 

[Feanor2]

I also find it tragic that the vast majority of holy priests won’t even be able to hug a child and I feel this isn’t psychologically good for the priest. This is sad- and yet I suppose the majority of priests have to carry the burden of a few of their number who would harm the young.

 

[OraLabora]

I also find it tragic that the vast majority of holy priests won’t even be able to hug a child and I feel this isn’t psychologically good for the priest. This is sad- and yet I suppose the majority of priests have to carry the burden of a few of their number who would harm the young.

A local priest once told us “we priests are the un-hugged”. It was a poignant statement on the loneliness of the priesthood.

 

[Gabika50]

I would suggest reading the book Good bye, good men.

 

[BarbTh]

I would suggest reading the book Good bye, good men.

Thank you for the recommendation