Cardinal Schönborn on Amoris Laetitia

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Who is stopping Cardinals speaking freely?
The operative word in Cardinal Muller’s interview is discussion, i.e. a friendly interchange between two individuals or groups. The cardinals have indeed spoken freely and have been vilified for it, but to date no discussion has taken place between them and the Pope.
 
The operative word in Cardinal Muller’s interview is discussion, i.e. a friendly interchange between two individuals or groups. The cardinals have indeed spoken freely and have been vilified for it, but to date no discussion has taken place between them and the Pope.
I do not think Cardinal Muller is vilifying anyone. I would call his words more discussion than speaking, as they are a response to other things said.

Now I understand that some may want to have a public discussion with the Pope. I wonder though if what is really wanted is the Pope on their side. If the Pope were to correct them, and they disagreed, would they consider they still discussion worthwhile?
 
I do not think Cardinal Muller is vilifying anyone. I would call his words more discussion than speaking, as they are a response to other things said.

Now I understand that some may want to have a public discussion with the Pope. I wonder though if what is really wanted is the Pope on their side. If the Pope were to correct them, and they disagreed, would they consider they still discussion worthwhile?
No, of course not, Cardinal Muller hasn’t villified them, but others have. The Cardinals have just sought an audience with the Pope, i.e. a private discussion. They want Pope Francis to clarify AL in a sense that does not conflict with perennial Catholic teaching - as Pope he cannot clarify it against Catholic teaching - and in a fashion that is public and official. They have a perfect right to ask for this.
 
The operative word in Cardinal Muller’s interview is discussion, i.e. a friendly interchange between two individuals or groups. The cardinals have indeed spoken freely and have been vilified for it, but to date no discussion has taken place between them and the Pope.
The Cardinal stated:
we bishops have the right, I would say the divine right, to discuss freely
The problem, if there is any, is certainly not the Pope’s.
Unlike Pope PVI he has not closed down public discussion on the matter, in fact AL has opened it up. Look at CAF.
 
Yes, but a right to ask does not equate to an obligation for the Pope to answer in the same format, or to open the floor, so to speak to discussion. That already happened.
On the contrary. AL has, in the minds of many prelates, overturned some fundamental principles of Catholic morality, namely that living in a sexually active cohabitation is gravely sinful and that one cannot receive Communion in mortal sin.

Francis cannot do what he likes with his pontificate. His God-given - or more precisely, Christ-given - job, is first and foremost to uphold the Catholic Faith. The fact that he does not answer to any ecclesiastical authority doesn’t diminish by one iota his responsibility to his mandate. The cardinals have a right to ask that he clarify AL in a Catholic sense, but he has the ***duty ***to do so.
 
On the contrary. AL has, in the minds of many prelates, overturned some fundamental principles of Catholic morality, namely that living in a sexually active cohabitation is gravely sinful and that one cannot receive Communion in mortal sin.

Francis cannot do what he likes with his pontificate. His God-given - or more precisely, Christ-given - job, is first and foremost to uphold the Catholic Faith. The fact that he does not answer to any ecclesiastical authority doesn’t diminish by one iota his responsibility to his mandate. The cardinals have a right to ask that he clarify AL in a Catholic sense, but he has the ***duty ***to do so.
Agreed, wonderful to see that there are still intelligent people here.
 
On the contrary. AL has, in the minds of many prelates, overturned some fundamental principles of Catholic morality, namely that living in a sexually active cohabitation is gravely sinful and that one cannot receive Communion in mortal sin.

Francis cannot do what he likes with his pontificate. His God-given - or more precisely, Christ-given - job, is first and foremost to uphold the Catholic Faith. The fact that he does not answer to any ecclesiastical authority doesn’t diminish by one iota his responsibility to his mandate. The cardinals have a right to ask that he clarify AL in a Catholic sense, but he has the ***duty ***to do so.
You are confused, “gravely sinful” does not necessarily mean being in personal mortal sin as you give every appearance of believing.

Pope Francis is therefore correct in stating that active irregular couples may well be growing in grace despite engaging in “grave matter”. Nothing new there.
 
You are confused, “gravely sinful” does not necessarily mean being in personal mortal sin as you give every appearance of believing.

Pope Francis is therefore correct in stating that active irregular couples may well be growing in grace despite engaging in “grave matter”. Nothing new there.
What do you mean by “active”?

What do you mean by “irregular couples”?

Do you have a quote from the Pope?
 
…Pope Francis is therefore correct in stating that active irregular couples may well be growing in grace despite engaging in “grave matter”. Nothing new there.
They may well be. Certainly. How does the accompanying priest assess that? What is the threshold for reception of the sacraments, given the objective situation? It would be great if any priests on the forum could share their understanding.
 
I do not think Cardinal Muller is vilifying anyone. I would call his words more discussion than speaking, as they are a response to other things said.

Now I understand that some may want to have a public discussion with the Pope. I wonder though if what is really wanted is the Pope on their side. If the Pope were to correct them, and they disagreed, would they consider they still discussion worthwhile?
The conversation needs to be had.
 
They may well be. Certainly. How does the accompanying priest assess that? What is the threshold for reception of the sacraments, given the objective situation? It would be great if any priests on the forum could share their understanding.
It is as Canon Law 915 has always stated and there appears to be considerable leeway granted to the local priest in prudentially deciding who breaches the criteria provided.
It is also prudentially decided what grave scandal may consist in.
 
What do you mean by “active”?

What do you mean by “irregular couples”?

Do you have a quote from the Pope?
Have you actually read AL right through or gone through any of the half dozen threads with AL in the title where these terms are used all the time without having to re explain again and again to newbies.
 
It is as Canon Law 915 has always stated and there appears to be considerable leeway granted to the local priest in prudentially deciding who breaches the criteria provided.
It is also prudentially decided what grave scandal may consist in.
I envisaged communion in private actually. So no scandal involved.
 
Of course all scandal is objective and intrinscally evil and the end of civilisation as we know it.
:confused:

The question was about how an accompanying priest assesses the situation - what is the threshold for reception of the sacraments, given the objective situation (ie. divorced and remarried and not living a brother and sister)? Scandal is not a concern.
 
…but he has the ***duty ***to do so.
That is your opinion. The Holy Father has a different one. More to the point, he understands the word “duty”. His duty is to God. So unless one is God, there is no knowledge, authority or criteria to just the “duty” of the Pope, at least that is my opinion.

Perhaps since you can’t speak as God, you could show where this duty lies in canon law?
On the contrary.
I do not know what this means. You do know that the Pope called two family synods just for the purpose of discussion, do you not? How can it be denied that he has invited discussion?
 
… You do know that the Pope called two family synods just for the purpose of discussion, do you not? How can it be denied that he has invited discussion?
It would seem that what emerged via AL caught many by surprise, and leaves many bewildered. And I’m not referring to the laity. It could be that the discussion to which you refer was inadequate.
 
It would seem that what emerged via AL caught many by surprise, and leaves many bewildered. And I’m not referring to the laity. It could be that the discussion to which you refer was inadequate.
Or it could be it was adequate enough for the senior clergy but some … you fill in the blanks.
 
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