Carmelites - please respond

[RosaLydia]

Hello Augustine & Vanessa:

I am also an aspirant to Carmel. So nice to meet other people that are also discerning their vocation! I currently attend a study group in Texas and have been attending since last Aug-Sept. I think they expect/hope to become an official group by next year.

I’ve been interested in Carmel for a while, but like Augustine I did not know how to aproach the group. This study group has a couple of months were part of the meeting is open to visitors and they invite several parishes to participate. That is how I joined. I like that because it felt very welcoming on their part.

I also hope to make it to the Houston congress!

 

[Trust_in_Him]

Hello, everyone

Update: I have been going to the monthly Carmelite meetings for a little while now, and I am enjoying it.

I was wondering if anyone could answer me this: Can you be a Carmelite and still pray in tongues?

Thank you.
From Trust In Him

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Hello, everyone

Update: I have been going to the monthly Carmelite meetings for a little while now, and I am enjoying it.

I was wondering if anyone could answer me this: Can you be a Carmelite and still pray in tongues?

Thank you.
From Trust In Him

Being praying in tongues is something we don’t do voluntarily(at least we shouldn’t be), but through the overwhelming presence of the Holy Spirit, of course.

However, you have to discern, why you are praying in tongues?

Generally, Carmelite Spirituality is focused on contemplative prayer, which is quiet interior prayer and so the expression of praying in tongues doesn’t happen.

Also, praying in tongues is something done in group Charismatic Prayer, for the purpose of serving each other, not ourselves.

So, in the context of contemplative prayer, I just don’t see it happening or a need for it.

Jim

 

[Epistemes]

Hello,

I hope the OP doesn’t mind if I post in this thread about my own interest in Carmelite spirituality since it seems to be serving as a general Q & A section for the OP and other members who are Carmelites, but I just wanted to express my own “questions” about Carmel.

Only months after being confirmed into the Church, the first Catholic books I managed to purchase was “Story of a Soul” by St. Therese of Child Jesus and the Holy Face and “Dark Night of a Soul” by St. John of the Cross. I had read in certain reviews about how difficult St. John’s “poem” was, but given that I was scheduled to lead a group discussion during mystagogy regarding spiritual dryness, I decided to pick St. John’s book up first. Needless to say, I was blown away by what I was reading! And, worst of all, I knew that I fell victim to many of the vices which he describes in the first section. I got so tired of St. John accusing me that I put the book down and didn’t pick it up again until months later where I made it just as far, felt just as bad, and have since not looked at it again – probably with good reason since my spiritual life has been an absolute mess!

I read St. Therese’s autobiography, and like so many others, I found this saint so adorable in her earnest, sweet love for Jesus that it was hard not to fall in love with her or her “little way.” Unfortunately, it was right about this time that I started having second doubts about my conversion and I drifted away.

Since returning, I’ve tried fostering a contemplative prayer life, but unfortunately I have something of a “monkey-mind” which wanders, bounces back and forth, and often feels uncomfortable during these moments of resting in God’s presence. Sometimes I get so sleepy that all I want to do is lay down, which makes it hard to focus. And I’m sure that if I even attempted reading St. John’s book again that it would still point the finger at how immature my spiritual life is.

Nonetheless, there has always been, and perhaps always will be, a place in my heart for Carmelite spirituality. I know that I’m hardly the most consistent person, especially on these forums, one day expressing myself like some saint and then the next day crying in desperation over the spilt milk of personal sin, but I sometimes think that practicing Carmelite spirituality might allow me to mature more than I have done thus far. I have even given thought to joining a lay or secular Carmelite order so that I might receive spiritual direction at the same time, which might help me to develop better, but unfortunately the nearest group is approx. one hour away, which would make any sense of community rather difficult. So, I can’t help but think that while Carmelite spirituality will always appeal to me in how authentic and mystical it appears to be, maybe God is calling me in another direction for another purpose. It’s hard to tell because when I try resting in his presence to get those answers I find myself drifting off to sleep!

 

[littleone]

Hello, I know that many on this forum are Carmelites.

I am reading part of the “Ascent of Mount Carmel” by Saint John of the Cross.
I was wondering, it is possible to go though the “dark night of the senses” while living in the world, or does this take a Carmelite? (Lay or Religious)

I am currently thinking about joing Lay Carmel, but I am not sure it I have a real vocation or not. I am currently in my first year of University(three year course).

Please answer, and provide links to the Third Order of Carmelites in England.

**Any and all people in love with God deeply will at some time go through this.
Other point about Carmelites, you will do your self no better to join. I had ten years at uni and wish that I was a third order at the time I get so much peace through living that way and praying the prayers.

Godbless **

 

[Gail_OCDS]

Epistemes:

I have even given thought to joining a lay or secular Carmelite order so that I might receive spiritual direction at the same time, which might help me to develop better, but unfortunately the nearest group is approx. one hour away, which would make any sense of community rather difficult. So, I can’t help but think that while Carmelite spirituality will always appeal to me in how authentic and mystical it appears to be, maybe God is calling me in another direction for another purpose. It’s hard to tell because when I try resting in his presence to get those answers I find myself drifting off to sleep!

Take comfort in the fact that many great saints had the same struggles; just persevere in your time of prayer daily.
God may be calling you to a different path, but do not let go of your comtemplative spirit which draws you deeper into the Heart of God.

**Any and all people in love with God deeply will at some time go through this. **
Other point about Carmelites, you will do your self no better to join. I had ten years at uni and wish that I was a third order at the time I get so much peace through living that way and praying the prayers.

**Godbless **

There are many souls who practice Carmelite spirituality as a way of life, but for various resons, are unable to join a religious or secular community.
Certainly such communities assist you in progressing along the spiritual path but are not necessary.

 

[AveSantaMaria]

If I feel that I am a beginner in the spiritual life, is this a bad thing?
How long will I be a beginner? How can I detach myself from constatly buying and keeping new holy books and cards?

From Vanessa

I personally still consider myself a beginner in my spiritual life. However, I believe that my spiritual walk started to become significantly easier after about a year of off and on rosary prayer, two months of regular rosary prayer ranging from one mystery to four mysteries a day and daily communion, then ten days of praying the four mysteries of the rosary a day plus daily communion and other devotions. It was like many things that I had previously struggled to do became easy once I started prayer cold turkey style in the manner of St. Louis De Montfort’s True Devotion to Mary with a firm commitment. (I try to pray first thing in the morning as the longer I put off my prayer the harder it is to say/lazier I am at saying it and also try to do combine rosary prayer with Eucharistic adoration and confession on Saturdays)

As far as I know, the Carmelites are under the protection of the Blessed Virgin Mary and Elijah. I believe that St. Therese’s Liseux prayed to a statue of Mary, saw Mary smile at her, and was cured. So… I am also thinking of becoming a Lay Carmelite, hopefully starting the process of discernment by talking with a priest in January after I know that I can keep up with the discipline of 4 mysteries of the rosary a day + communion + divine office + a few other prayers + considering others’ needs before my own more than I do now…

“And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand”. Matthew 12:25… So devotion to Mary and the rosary cannot be in opposition to becoming a Carmelite. I would recommend it as a help in discernment, steadfastness, virtue, grace, and holiness.

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[AveSantaMaria]

As a means of Christian perfection
“Therefore we are sure that Our children and all their brethren throughout the world will turn (the Rosary) into a school for learning true perfection, as, with a deep spirit of recollection, they contemplate the teachings that shine forth from the life of Christ and of Mary Most Holy.” --Pope John XXIII

For success/discernment in one’s vocation in life
"I think that I did not miss a single day in reciting it, including the most terrible times of battle when I had not rest night or day. *How often did I see her manifest intercession in the decisions which I made in choosing a precise tactic. ** Take, then, the advice of an old soldier seasoned by experience: Do not neglect the recitation of the Rosary for any reason."–Marshal Foch, great military leader of WW.I
*
For final perseverance
**"Those who say it fervently and frequently will gradually grow in grace and holiness and will enjoy the special protection of Our Lady and the abiding friendship of God. **
“No one can live continually in sin and continue to say the Rosary–either he will give up sin or he will give up the Rosary.”–Bishop Hugh Boyle

***As a powerful means of obtaining graces from God ***
“Among all the devotions approved by the Church none has been favored by so many miracles as the devotion of the Most Holy Rosary.” --Pope Piux IX

For healing the evils of our day
“We do not hesitate to affirm again publicly that We put great confidence in the Holy Rosary for the healing of evils which afflict our times.”–Pope Piux XII

***15 Promies Our Lady gave for praying the Most Holy Rosary ***

1. Whoever shall faithfully serve Me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall receive signal graces.
2. ** I promise My special protection and the greatest graces to all who shall recite the Rosary**
3. The Rosary shall be a powerful armor against hell, it will destroy vice, decrease sin, and defeat heresies.
4. It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of men from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means.
5. The soul which recommends itself to Me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish.
6. Whoever shall recite the Rosary devoutly, applying himself to the consideration of its sacred mysteries, shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise him in His justice, he shall not perish by an unprovided death; if he be just he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of eternal life.
7. Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church.
8. Those who are faithful in reciting the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they shall participate in the merits of the saints in paradise.
9. I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the Rosary.
10. The faithful children of the Rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven.
    **11. You shall obtain all you ask of me by the recitation of the Rosary. **
    **12. All those who propagate the Holy Rosary shall be aided by me in their necessities. **
11. I have obtained from my Divine Son that all the advocates of the Rosary shall have for intercessors the entire celestial court during their life and at the hour of death
12. All who recite the Rosary are my children, and brothers and sisters of my only Son, Jesus Christ.
13. Devotion of my Rosary is a great sign of predestination.

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[AveSantaMaria]

Just to let you know- St. Therese of Liseux’s father tried to join a monastery but was rejected because he didn’t know Latin and St. Therese of Liseux’s mother tried to join a convent but was rejected because they thought she had no vocation. St. Therese of Liseux was rejected initially for her youth and was a bit spoiled before she firmly resolved to join and went all the way up to the Holy Father Pope Leo XIII to request permission and finally entered the convent at 15.

Her romantic ideas of convent life and suffering soon met up with reality in a way she had never expected. Her father suffered a series of strokes that left him affected not only physically but mentally. When he began hallucinating and grabbed for a gun as if going into battle, he was taken to an asylum for the insane. Horrified, Therese learned of the humiliation of the father she adored and admired and of the gossip and pity of their so-called friends. As a cloistered nun she couldn’t even visit her father.
This began a horrible time of suffering when she experienced such dryness in prayer that she stated "Jesus isn’t doing much to keep the conversation going."

Another quote on the most Holy Rosary: “There is no surer means of calling down God’s blessings upon the family…than daily recitation of the Rosary.” Pope Pius XII

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed Art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of they womb Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[MGV12]

I will be interested to see the answers given to your question about the “dark night of the senses”. I have not read St. John of the Cross… but would like to. Unfortunately, I don’t get much time for reading… right now.

Go to freecatholicebooks.com they have various catholc books worth reading, including ascent to carmel, which is a must read for carmelites, and other cool books, you can also go to catholic-forum.com they also have lots of e-books online. I can say that being a Carmelite is not easy, to those which much is given,much is required. I’ve yet to fully master contemplative prayer, but I wouldn’t have it any other way, since I believe I was strongly called to be a Carmelite of the third order.

 

[Trust_in_Him]

Update: The formation director has discerned that I do not have a vocation to the Carmelite Secular Order.

From Trust In Him

 

[Augustine]

Update: The formation director has discerned that I do not have a vocation to the Carmelite Secular Order.

That happens. Love for the Carmelite Doctors does not necessarily translate into a vocation for Carmel. On the other hand, love for them can coexist with a vocation to other orders. For example, in our diocese, one of the most knowledgeable guy about the Carmelite Doctors is a Holy Cross brother.

I hope that you find where the Lord’s voice is coming from and that you find Carmelite Doctors to be travel companions.

 

[Sister_Helena]

Hello Vanessa,

St. John of the Cross is a hard read because he speaks of deep interior movements of the soul that can be hard to explain. he himself acknowledged the fact that despite the methodical way he explained his teachings, he still fell short of accurately describing spiritual experiences. “There are more differences in souls than in faces” he would say. But still, he is a solid guide to those who are serious about the spiritual life but he needs to be read with guidance.

When he talks about purifications, he divided his discussions by dealing with the body (senses) and spirit (soul). In reality, the human and divine aspects of our being are inseparable. St. John had a particular theological training called Scholastics, where one is trained to approach things according to this division.

According to St. John, there is an active dark night of the senses, where the person purposely sets out to discipline him / herself as regards the material things of this world. So he would say, to actively enter into the night of senses, mortify your sense of sight (do not take pleasure in seeing anything that does not glorify God), or your sense of hearing (do not listen to anything that does not lift your heart to God), your sense of taste , etc. the important thing to remember here is that IT IS THE DESIRE FOR THESE THINGS that need to be disciplined. In other words, you can enjoy them but not be attached to them. The night of the senses is the lot of anyone who desires to imitate Jesus Christ. It is not just for priests, nuns or consecrated people. If you are serious in your spiritual journey, you need to enter into this night to make room for God.

The night of the spirit is a deeper degree of purification which is the lot of a few. It’s not because God does not want to grant it, but it is because very few choose to dispose themselves to it. Again, this can be experienced by anybody whom God chooses.

St. John also said that however much we try we will never be able to completely purify ourselves in this life. God will have to bring us to the experience of the Dark Night. All we can do is to prepare the groundworks by the active night of the senses and active night of the spirit by practicing faith, hope and charity.

 

[littleone]

**

Go to freecatholicebooks.com they have various catholc books worth reading, including ascent to carmel, which is a must read for carmelites, and other cool books, you can also go to catholic-forum.com they also have lots of e-books online. I can say that being a Carmelite is not easy, to those which much is given,much is required. I’ve yet to fully master contemplative prayer, but I wouldn’t have it any other way, since I believe I was strongly called to be a Carmelite of the third order.

**I know that through St therese (Little flower), some 30 years ago I was called to her way of living. It is not easy since for me, I loved the way of “littleness”, and the “self denial”, which caused anoiance through some not understanding me and thinking I was strange. But I will not change that for what it gives me even in my sinful humanness. However for me, without realising the “mystical” mode of some carmelites, I became very much living in that mode. Nothing else mattered since I had found my God how I knew He was in a full way. True, Pure, and unrelenting LOVE, a love that was true, taking me to places I never thought existed in this world and helping others in ways maybe not considered carmelite.
This took me into giving myself as much as I could offering for God to take me as a holicost of His love, doing with me what He desired for His full desire, ( in a wayI knew what that might mean). To live as a carmelite even though I was working with people who who hared me and made a joke of medid not matter. But they did the same to Jesus and the saints and prophets so what mattered. Jesus helped me through speaking directly as He does to others and for a time He sent St Therese to direct me through to where Jesus wanted.
As you have said “It is not an easy way”, but I would not have it any other way.
When the relics of St Therese came here I thought that I didn’t need to be there, BUT…I did go through a (7YR) old child asking me if I would take him, I got there and in entering the door I almost fell over, well pushed over by the spirit there. It was there that I had to join a Carmelite group.
Yes even after living so close for some 30 yrs. Now doiing the daily office is a different life.
Try it you have nothing to lose, at least try it, maybe say "Lord if this is for me even though others have told me it is not for me, then show me. :yup: :tiphat:

Godbless**.

 

[littleone]

If I feel that I am a beginner in the spiritual life, is this a bad thing?
How long will I be a beginner? How can I detach myself from constatly buying and keeping new holy books and cards?

From Vanessa

“Beginner”",
Your littleness is what God want’s so stay in that mode for as Jesus tell’s us it is such who enter the kingdome of God, or, unless you become as a little child you cannot enter the Kingdom…
Build on that reliance as a child to all you want in life through your dependence upon God.

I am a little one and have been this way since I was about 12yrs, my dependance is upon God in all I want (as THerese the little flower was).
Beginner, I understand what you meen, we are all, don’t think about being something we all are only search for a person and have an “open” heart to hear God speak to you direstly ask for "discernment to help you.
We are all beginners in some way or other.
Godbless.

 

[littleone]

“Trust in Him”,earlier you asked about “praying in toungs”. Toungs is a gift from the Holy Spirit. to be used when the spirit leads, it is the person who has that gift who will be directed by the spirit to do so. There are many reasons for toungs, such as
edification,
a message,
rebuke a spirit,
when dryness comes on and the spirit leads you to praise God are a few.
i donot find being thatmy being a person in their lead up to becomming an OCDS any less a time for me to think less of speaking in tongs at all, since it is between the spirit and the individual, and definitely the spirit leads me into praising God in toungs at times.
This might be deemed “mystical” and there are some carmelites who use this gift.

Godbless

 

[Sister_Helena]

The term “beginner” in the spiritual life is really a stage rather than a state of a soul’s disposition to God. in other words, St. Therese at her deathbed was not a “beginner” but already a giant in the spiritual life. And yet, she was also at the same time a child and little in her disposition to God. Beginner is usually a level where one takes the initial steps in spiritual living. It is the “getting to know” stage of the spiritual life. We are starting to be serious about God, our prayer life, how to grow in virtues, how to avoid sins, frequenting the Sacraments, etc. You can be very advanced and still remain a child, humble and little in the spiritual life. In fact, the more you grow and become a “proficient”, the more you should become humble and little.