"Cataracts, hips, knees and tonsils: NHS begins rationing operations "

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Me wanting to keep my money is greed, someone else wanting my money is need and Prodigal Son 1 thinks arranging the transfer is charity.
 
Me wanting to keep my money is greed, someone else wanting my money is need and Prodigal Son 1 thinks arranging the transfer is charity.
You are mistaken. I think of giving to charity/social programs, even through government, represents following the teachings of Christ. I believe we are all called to make all our decisions based on His teachings, even our secular decisions and I believe ‘working’ with our governments is secular. All Catholics would agree with that in reference to ending abortion, but become divided when it comes to money. I find it confusing, and somewhat hypocritical, even if it’s not realized in the same way I feel I know it. It’s not declaring myself as ‘infallible’, but more a truth I feel in my heart.

This is a Christian/Catholic forum and a place where people of faith can express themselves while sharing beliefs, involving secular and faith. Not everything I believe in my heart as truth have I have always believed throughout my life. It was through life experiences and sharing with others that changes were made. I have expressed myself, just as people of opposing views have done. While it appears evident I haven’t changed any minds, I have not changed my view either.

Now, does expressing our views with each other, even opposing views, deserve the spins and veiled attacks on one’s person? Does anyone see that as a way to change a view? My views are from what I consider as my love for my fellow ‘man’, even those I have never met. I believe that’s what Christ would want me to base my views on.

While your post attributes the view to me solely, as you’ve singled out, I feel confident there are many who share the view to some degree, or another.

I have tried to raise points and questions pertaining specifically to the discussion/topic. I have tried to answer all questions, as honestly as I could. The opposing view has fell short in this respect, in my honest opinion. Maybe it’s because we’re all biased according to our beliefs, myself included. This, again in my opinion, does not justify the way some have turned it into a personal inquisition because I have an opposing view. As I said, it’s changed nothing about the way I believe it should be. With that said, I hold no animosities as I believe we are all at different levels of thoughts, and our faith, not saying I’m right or someone is wrong, or vice versa. We should all pray for justice, God’s justice, in this world.
 
Lets avoid Misleading Hype; We have Postings here By British National Health Member refuting all the misleading And False hype. Anyone Who Needs important Medical aid Gets it quickly. And Our USA Massively Expoensive (28% of our Entire Economy, vs 5% for next biggest spending :France) is rated 28th best results in the world. And European Nations have very major independent (Non-Government) Doctors, etc. German Universal National Health is Based on commercial Insurance Companies, Medicine, and Doctors (I have 2 MD Cousins there) Regulated to prevent our massive Profits of in the 20’s % or More.
Our Vastly more expensive Health Business System is rated 28th in the world, and we have Far Higher Infant Death than any European Country. Only Mexico has a higher Infant Mortality Now in North America, but they Bagan National Health for Pregnant Women last year. Canada also began Provincial Health recently. Only we, in the Richest Nation in the World, do Not have Universal, One payer Health System. Just the Facts Other Nations know, we avoid.
I don’t think these kinds of comparison prove anything. You cited the following.

France: A very large portion of French healthcare is “hidden” because it’s not included in healthcare statistics, but in other government expenditures. A very big example of that is the fact that France pays for medical education; a very big item in the U.S., which doctors (who typically owe a lot of money coming out of school) have to recoup in their charges here, with after-tax dollars.) This is buried in the “education” budget, not the “healthcare” stats. Also, France pays for doctors’ malpractice insurance; a huge item in the U.S. where it’s not unusual for doctors to pay more for their insurance than they receive in “net” earnings after paying for insurance. Neither thing is included in the “cost of care” in France.

France pays nothing at all for illegal immigrants’ care. Not a dime. We usually pay 100% of it. France requires proof of legality at the point of service.

The national healthcare system in France does not pay for all costs. Typically, it pays 80% reimbursement to the patient, who pays “up front” for his care, thus discouraging overutilization. There are provincial authorities who often “make up for” those deductibles for the truly poor.

The government buys all medications in obviously huge quantities, directly from the manufacturer. It will not provide some meds provided in the U.S.

On another subject: A good part of American costs are due to the fact that the more expensive tests, like MRIs and CTs are performed twice as often here as in other developed countries. Of course, some 90% of MRIs for example, show nothing that needs to be done. But in 10% of the cases, something definitely needs to be done. So, are we, then, to cut the number in half to match the rate of other developed countries? Sounds good unless you’re in the 5% for whom it might be a life-saver.

Medical costs in Mexico are, indeed, much lower than here. I have had occasion to contract for medical services there for others. They are about 1/3 to 1/2 of the cost here for the very same thing. Meds are even cheaper because you can buy them over the counter in Mexico (of mixed quality, of course and some are counterfeit). An unfortunate result of the latter is rampant self-treatment, which we can largely thank for antibiotic-resistant strains of TB, staph, and other things.

And, the cost of living in Mexico is significantly lower than here.

And, of course, Mexico has the luxury of pushing many of its citizens off on the U.S. for free medical treatment. Also, many, if not most, of the illegals in the U.S. are on the low end of the socioeconomic scale in their countries of origin (that’s why they’re here, not there), and have had poor diets and health habits as well as awful environmental exposures their whole lives prior to coming here. So, the ranking of places like, say, Norway, which do not have 20 million illegals from the very bottom of the health scale as we do, do not have that situation pulling their “outcomes” down. Again, we take care of what is probably most of them for free.
 
The reason the United States spends such a large percent of its GDP on health care is … are you ready for this? … because the United States CHOOSES to do so.

It is our collective decision to have the best, most high tech, most available medical care on the planet.

And that costs money.

And we freely and willingly [and sometimes complainingly] spend it.

In the U.S. you can get to see not only your primary care physician … or any other doctor … on short notice, BUT you also get to see a specialist very quickly as well.

Now, what has been happening is that more and more government bureaucracy HAS gotten in the way and delays are starting to encroach into the system.

And those other countries have made decisions to spend less. So they end up with longer waits for specialists and MRI’s and chemotherapy and the rest.

There are three areas of medicine with almost no government involvement and you can get in there quickly … eye care and dentistry. And veterinary.

If you want an example of government health care in the United States, look no further than any Indian Reservation.
 
In the U.S. you can get to see not only your primary care physician … or any other doctor … on short notice, BUT you also get to see a specialist very quickly as well.
So can you in Switzerland. They have wait times very similar to that of the US with much lower healthcare costs.
 
So can you in Switzerland. They have wait times very similar to that of the US with much lower healthcare costs.
And Switzerland is a much smaller country (only 7.9 million people) than the US with an affluent homogeneous population with limited immigration. The US has more illegal immigrants enter the country in a season than Switzerland allowed to legally enter their country in the last 4 years. To become a citizen in Switzerland you must live in the country for 12 years. Health insurance is required by law and has a large annual deductible. The compulsory insurance is supplemented by private insurance policies that allow for coverage of some of the treatment categories not covered by the basic insurance.
 
I don’t think I made a mistake.
Oh well, I’m used to some Protestants telling me what Catholics believe, even after we explain what is reality. I guess the same applies to some in political disagreements. 🤷
 
There’s more than one way to prioritize. As you can see in England the government did this and look what it got them - people fleeing to the US for basic health care.
You are wrong.

The only people who go to the US for “basic healthcare” are the very, very wealthy, and they only do that because it fits in with their lifestyle. A few British people, as it’s the British government (Scotland, England, Wales, N. Ireland) that runs the NHS, go for special, experiemental treatments or operations. In some of those cases, it is the NHS that pays for their treatment.

You didn’t even get the name of the country the NHS is in right, you are just showing that you don’t know anything about it.
 
I’ve met Europeans that have come to the U.S. for treatment. They are wealthy. The reason they came here is because of severe health issues, such as cancer. The treatment here is naturally better. Care is rationed (or “prioritized”) whether one wishes to believe it or not. When faced with treated 1,000 for a flu, or giving someone chemo for a year, the 1,000 people with the flu win.

Middle class people do go to other countries for various reasons. The reason is almost exclusively that the treatment is not covered by insurance, and it can be done for a fraction of the cost overseas, even when considering the costs of flying and staying there.
Cancer care is not rationed under the NHS. However, my relative in the US who died of cancer did have **her **care rationed by her lovely health insurance provider.

There is no choosing between flu and cancer treatments. The only reason that people go to the US for cancer treatment is due to having a larger population, there are more doctors with experience of rare cancers. For the same reason, it is often only feasible for US universities to do research in these areas, which again attracts people from Europe with those cancers.
 
Good, give them your money, not mine.

You can’t force charity. Then it stops being charity.

Jesus commanded charity, not taxes.

“They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them”.
Jesus did command taxes, he tells us in Matthew 22:15-21, Mark 12:13-17 and Luke 20:20-25. When He was asked if Jews should pay taxes to Rome, Jesus said to them: “‘Show me the coin with which you pay the taxes.’ They showed him a denarius and Jesus said to them, ‘Whose head is on this, and whose name?’ They answered, ‘Caesar’s.’ Then Jesus replied, ‘Therefore, return unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s’” (Matthew 22:19-21)

Unless your own name is on the money, you have to pay taxes, the money is not “yours” to give away as you please. It is not being “taken” when you pay taxes, it is the price of being a citizen of your country. Do you think being a citizen of your country is a good thing? Are you proud of your country? I would answer “Yes” to both, and even though my taxes are higher than yours, I see it as a small price to pay for being able to call this country mine.
 
You are wrong.

The only people who go to the US for “basic healthcare” are the very, very wealthy, and they only do that because it fits in with their lifestyle. A few British people, as it’s the British government (Scotland, England, Wales, N. Ireland) that runs the NHS, go for special, experiemental treatments or operations. In some of those cases, it is the NHS that pays for their treatment.

You didn’t even get the name of the country the NHS is in right, you are just showing that you don’t know anything about it.
Thank you!! For all your posts! 👍
 
Jesus did command taxes, he tells us in Matthew 22:15-21, Mark 12:13-17 and Luke 20:20-25. When He was asked if Jews should pay taxes to Rome, Jesus said to them: “‘Show me the coin with which you pay the taxes.’ They showed him a denarius and Jesus said to them, ‘Whose head is on this, and whose name?’ They answered, ‘Caesar’s.’ Then Jesus replied, ‘Therefore, return unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s’” (Matthew 22:19-21)

Unless your own name is on the money, you have to pay taxes, the money is not “yours” to give away as you please. It is not being “taken” when you pay taxes, it is the price of being a citizen of your country. Do you think being a citizen of your country is a good thing? Are you proud of your country? I would answer “Yes” to both, and even though my taxes are higher than yours, I see it as a small price to pay for being able to call this country mine.
You obviously haven’t read the entire thread. Otherwise, you would understand the point of the scripture I raised.
 
You are wrong.

The only people who go to the US for “basic healthcare” are the very, very wealthy, and they only do that because it fits in with their lifestyle. A few British people, as it’s the British government (Scotland, England, Wales, N. Ireland) that runs the NHS, go for special, experiemental treatments or operations. In some of those cases, it is the NHS that pays for their treatment.

You didn’t even get the name of the country the NHS is in right, you are just showing that you don’t know anything about it.
Never mind that many do not grasp the structure of our healthcare system. What I do not understand is why there is criticism of the NHS by those who live across the pond when they are not the users of our healthcare system nor British taxpayers.
 
Jesus did command taxes, he tells us in Matthew 22:15-21, Mark 12:13-17 and Luke 20:20-25. When He was asked if Jews should pay taxes to Rome, Jesus said to them: “‘Show me the coin with which you pay the taxes.’ They showed him a denarius and Jesus said to them, ‘Whose head is on this, and whose name?’ They answered, ‘Caesar’s.’ Then Jesus replied, ‘Therefore, return unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s’” (Matthew 22:19-21)

Unless your own name is on the money, you have to pay taxes, the money is not “yours” to give away as you please. It is not being “taken” when you pay taxes, it is the price of being a citizen of your country. Do you think being a citizen of your country is a good thing? Are you proud of your country? I would answer “Yes” to both, and even though my taxes are higher than yours, I see it as a small price to pay for being able to call this country mine.
bible.cc/matthew/17-27.htm
 
Here is another article:

lucianne.com/thread/?artnum=629894

telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/8671127/Patients-struggle-even-to-get-on-NHS-waiting-lists.html

Brief excerpt:

Patients struggle even to get on NHS waiting lists

Patients have told how they have struggled even to get on NHS waiting lists, forcing them to endure lengthy delays for treatment or to go private, as managers ration treatment to save money.

Patients are waiting longer to be operated on by the NHS

By Martin Beckford, Health Correspondent10:00PM BST 29 Jul 2011

One woman waiting four months for a knee operation was told by a hospital that her name would drop off the list unless she replied to a letter, while a man had to pay £11,000 for a replacement hip after his doctors repeatedly refused to refer him for treatment. A multiple sclerosis sufferer claimed he had had to wait 18 months just to be added to a waiting list.

The examples emerged after The Daily Telegraph disclosed how health service funding bodies are artificially increasing waiting times as they wait for patients to die or go private.

The row prompted Andrew Lansley, the Health Secretary, to accuse the Primary Care Trusts that currently pay for treatment of “cynically” trying to “game” the system, and promise that under his reforms patients’ needs will be the priority.

But Labour and a leading medical body claimed managers are being forced into rationing treatment because of the financial pressures they are under.

It now appears likely that PCTs will be forced to publish the minimum waiting times they are imposing on patients, as recommended by the watchdog that uncovered the practice.

RELATED ARTICLES

NHS delays operations ‘as it waits for patients to die or go private’ 28 Jul 2011
 
I’m really in your prayers? Well, thanks.👍

You asked me to pay taxes so you can help others. How is that charity on your part?
We’re not asking anyone to pay Taxes; It is Our Responsibility to, and imo Patriotic to. Our Lord told his brethren to “Pay unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar’s”. Let’s remember Societies always grouped to together “For the Public Good”: Rome built Aquaducts, Public Baths, the first underground sewer system, Etc., Etc. Universal Health is by Far the Lowest Cost, and the only universal Coverage. Mexico began Universal Health for Pregnant Women last year, to solve their Highest Infant Mortality we will now inherit. Our Awesome Constitution words of our Founding Fathers Began with “Every One has the Right to Life, …” imo, there is nothing wrong in being a wealthiest Billionaire or Wall-Streeter Insider, as long as they Pay their Just Dues in Jail and/or Taxes, as Appropriate. One Commandment is Not to Have “False Gods”, like Power or Wealth or Self, as Our Church teaches.
Charity per se is by those to those who have no other source of help, best is helping one learn a form of proper living.
 
Here is another article:

lucianne.com/thread/?artnum=629894

telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/8671127/Patients-struggle-even-to-get-on-NHS-waiting-lists.html

Brief excerpt:

Patients struggle even to get on NHS waiting lists

Patients have told how they have struggled even to get on NHS waiting lists, forcing them to endure lengthy delays for treatment or to go private, as managers ration treatment to save money.

Patients are waiting longer to be operated on by the NHS

By Martin Beckford, Health Correspondent10:00PM BST 29 Jul 2011

One woman waiting four months for a knee operation was told by a hospital that her name would drop off the list unless she replied to a letter, while a man had to pay £11,000 for a replacement hip after his doctors repeatedly refused to refer him for treatment. A multiple sclerosis sufferer claimed he had had to wait 18 months just to be added to a waiting list.

The examples emerged after The Daily Telegraph disclosed how health service funding bodies are artificially increasing waiting times as they wait for patients to die or go private.

The row prompted Andrew Lansley, the Health Secretary, to accuse the Primary Care Trusts that currently pay for treatment of “cynically” trying to “game” the system, and promise that under his reforms patients’ needs will be the priority.

But Labour and a leading medical body claimed managers are being forced into rationing treatment because of the financial pressures they are under.

It now appears likely that PCTs will be forced to publish the minimum waiting times they are imposing on patients, as recommended by the watchdog that uncovered the practice.

RELATED ARTICLES

NHS delays operations ‘as it waits for patients to die or go private’ 28 Jul 2011
Let’s remember 2 things: (1) the Massive World Financial collapse Began, was Caused by the Financial ‘free market’ Changes and No Enforcement of SEC Laws by the Last administration: Our own few Insiders Wall Street. (2) Britain has a Financial Industry oriented ‘conservative’ Prime Minister, who used an USA Murdoch Media illegal operations kingpin to win a narrow election; Prosecutions There and Here are being investigated for criminal violations. (3) Our Insurance Companies also require Waiting, or not having Needed Healthcare “Yet”. We have postings This thread.
 
Here is another article:

lucianne.com/thread/?artnum=629894

telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/8671127/Patients-struggle-even-to-get-on-NHS-waiting-lists.html

Brief excerpt:

Patients struggle even to get on NHS waiting lists

Patients have told how they have struggled even to get on NHS waiting lists, forcing them to endure lengthy delays for treatment or to go private, as managers ration treatment to save money.

Patients are waiting longer to be operated on by the NHS

By Martin Beckford, Health Correspondent10:00PM BST 29 Jul 2011

One woman waiting four months for a knee operation was told by a hospital that her name would drop off the list unless she replied to a letter, while a man had to pay £11,000 for a replacement hip after his doctors repeatedly refused to refer him for treatment. A multiple sclerosis sufferer claimed he had had to wait 18 months just to be added to a waiting list.

The examples emerged after The Daily Telegraph disclosed how health service funding bodies are artificially increasing waiting times as they wait for patients to die or go private.

The row prompted Andrew Lansley, the Health Secretary, to accuse the Primary Care Trusts that currently pay for treatment of “cynically” trying to “game” the system, and promise that under his reforms patients’ needs will be the priority.

But Labour and a leading medical body claimed managers are being forced into rationing treatment because of the financial pressures they are under.

It now appears likely that PCTs will be forced to publish the minimum waiting times they are imposing on patients, as recommended by the watchdog that uncovered the practice.

RELATED ARTICLES

NHS delays operations ‘as it waits for patients to die or go private’ 28 Jul 2011
Monte, the best source of reference to the current state of our healthcare system here is the King’s Fund. kingsfund.org.uk/current_projects/the_health_and_social_care_bill/nhs_health_check.html?gclid=CKDEgbTCqaoCFcEd4QodLXH1WA
 
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