Catechism paragraph 841 Muslims

[Vouthon]

I completely agree! All I said is that they don’t worship the same God. Not that they cannot be saved as I said before.

God bless

Apologies on that front then brother John

I had assumed otherwise when you said:

Think of it this way; A Jew/Muslim true to their “own” faith (not the true faith) dies and is on the judgement seat. Jesus himself is the judge in front of this person. Above his head reads “All who believe in me will be saved”. What will Christ say to this person? Is it not Church teaching (along with common sense) that the first question Jesus will ask is “Did you believe in Me?”.

However I admit my error since I had not noticed your statement afterwards (the “caveat”)

Pope Saint Gregory VII did say though that we worship the same God but have different (and in the case of Islam an inferior and in some areas erroneous) understading of him, nearly 1,000 years ago as did Blessed Pope John Paul II.

 

[Godfollower]

How can you say that the Jews worship the same God if they don’t believe in God!!

Jesus is God, the Jews don’t believe in Jesus, the Jews don’t believe in God.

A simple syllogism. Again, I still believe they “may be saved” if they follow the natural law as I said before, but they do not believe in the same God.

God bless

Really? Then what did Jesus mean when He said “The first commandment of all is, Hear, O Israel: the Lord thy God is one God. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God, with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength. This is the first commandment. And the second is like to it: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is no other commandment greater than these”?

The Old Testament says “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole strength.”

Are there two different Gods? Did the God of the Old Testament leave when the God of the New Testament took over? Was Jesus talking about the same God to be Lord, or were there more than one?

To say that Jews don’t worship the same God we worship is to deny the Gospels. Jesus prayed to the Father – the same God that the Jews worship. In fact, Jesus taught in their synagogues and in the Temple. It’s the same God.

The fact that they don’t believe something about Him (His triune nature or anything else, for that matter) doesn’t mean they’re worshipping a different God; it just means that they don’t know Him as well as we do.

Let’s say that my kids have some friends over and I order pizza and stuff, and they (my kids’ friends) comment on how nice and easygoing I am. Then suppose my kids look at them like they’re crazy and say “No way! He’s freaking strict, he’s mean, and he never lets us do anything we want to do !”

Are they dealing with the same person, or are they dealing with two different people?

It’s one and the same father, but two different groups are describing him differently.

Muslims, Jews, and Christians all worship the same God. They just describe Him differently. And they teach different – radically different – things about Him.

 

[jam070406]

So Pope Saint Greory VII and Blessed Pope John Paul II are ‘wrong’? Did they have a poor grasp of theology?

Well you really won’t like Pope Pius XI either then:

"…Do not think you are going to a country of heathens [or “among infidels”]. Muslims attain to salvation. The ways of God are infinite…”

***- Pope Pius XI, 1934 (L’Ultima, Florence, Anno VIII) ***

****Note: the Pope didn’t say “all” Muslims. He was stating it as a principle *******

I will let the SSPX founder and famous traditioinalist Lefebvre speak in my behalf:

"…There are three ways of receiving baptism: the baptism of water; the baptism of blood (that of the martyrs who confessed the faith while still catechumens) and baptism of desire.

Baptism of desire can be explicit…The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire. This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church…"

***- (Archbishop Lefebvre, Open Letter to Confused Catholics) ***

Jews, atheists, Baha’is, Hindus, Buddhists and Muslims etc. can attain to salvation if they are spiritually speaking joined to the Catholic Church as informal members through implicit baptism by desire which consists in following the Will of God as known to one’s conscience, to the best of one’s ability and knowledge responding to the grace granted to oneself by God.

What happened to, thou shall have no false gods before me?

 

[Mickey]

But that’s not the same thing. St. John was talking about so-called Christians who were denying Jesus’ divinity.

Read it again. St John says" “The same hath not the Father”

If your logic is correct, then Jews – who also deny Jesus’ divinity and Sonship – don’t worship the same God we do.

Correct. How can they deny God the Son…and still worship the same Father?

 

[jam070406]

So what? That doesn’t mean that they’re worshipping some other god out there that’s kind of like ours but different.

They adore the one, true God, mankind’s judge on the last day. That doesn’t mean they’re saved; that doesn’t mean that they agree with us; and that doesn’t mean that they’re right. It just means that they adore God. That’s all.

So what? The one, true and only God is the Trinity. They reject Him. They worship a false god, a made up god. At worst, their worship is directed to demons.

 

[Mickey]

I think that Pope St Gregory VII explained it best:

“…He who enlightens all men coming into this world (John 1.9) has enlightened your mind for this purpose. Almighty God, who wishes that all should be saved and none lost, approves nothing in so much as that after loving Him one should love his fellow man, and that one should not do to others, what one does not want done to oneself. This affection we and you owe to each other in a more peculiar way than to people of other races because **we worship and confess the same God though in diverse forms **and daily praise and adore Him as the creator and ruler of this world. For, in the words of the Apostle, ‘He is our peace who hath made both one.’ This good action was inspired in your heart by God…This grace granted to you by God is admired and praised by many of the Roman nobility who have learned from us of your benevolence and high qualities . . .] For God knows that we love you purely for His honour and that we desire your salvation and glory, both in this life and in the life to come. And we pray in our hearts and with our lips that God may lead you to the abode of happiness, to the bosom of the holy patriarch Abraham, after long years of life here on earth…”

- Pope St. Gregory VII, Letter XXI to Al-Nasir the Muslim Ruler of Bijaya (Algeria), 1076

Is that an infallible statement from this Pope?

 

[Godfollower]

Ahhh…this perennial favorite!

Rejection of Christ is rejection of the Father who sent Him, and rejection of His plan for salvation of all mankind. So nobody who rejects the Son can somehow still be worshiping the Father. That includes the Muslims and the Jews and all the other Christ-deniers, and it’s Biblical and Patristic and the whole bit. The Jews don’t worship God, and to make the first deniers of Christ our God into some sort of paragon of worship of God is frankly bizarre.
**
“Indeed all scripture teems with disproof of Jewish unbelief.”** - St. Athanasius the Apostolic, On the Incarnation of the Word of God (4th century AD)

I’d trust St. Athanasius a million times over before I’d listen to CCC 841, even if Pope Benedict XIV showed up on my doorstep offering to explain it to me himself. But everyone has to make a choice, I guess. Best of luck in yours, OP.

We aren’t contradicting him (though the language leaves a lot to be desired: “Disproof of unbelief” means “Belief”). Scripture does, indeed, teem with proof that Jesus is Lord.

We agree that Jews and Muslims are wrong in many things. But they’re also right in many things. For example:

• They teach that there is only one God.
• They adore the one God.

That’s all for purposes of Catechism ¶ 841. We aren’t saying “All religions are the same” or “Everyone gets saved” or “It’s just as good to be Jewish or Muslim as to be Christian.”

It’s just one clear note that we’re all worshipping the same God. They’ve got a long ways to go, but they’re further along the path than atheists or Hindus. That’s all that paragraph says.

 

[jam070406]

Apologies on that front then brother John

I had assumed otherwise when you said:

However I admit my error since I had not noticed your statement afterwards (the “caveat”)

Pope Saint Gregory VII did say though that we worship the same God but have different (and in the case of Islam an inferior and in some areas erroneous) understading of him, nearly 1,000 years ago as did Blessed Pope John Paul II.

Meaning, their misunderstanding leads their worship away from the one true God. Even if they believe they are doing so. They are lead astray and need the saving grace of Jesus Christ. Pope Gregory was trying to lead them to Christ and out of false belief which was causing Muslims to kill Christians.

 

[Mickey]

They adore the one, true God, mankind’s judge on the last day.

I am not sure what or who they are worshipping…I suppose Mohammed would have known. But they are not directing their worship to the same God as the Christians. In fact, muslims would be the first to tell you that the Christian Trinitarian God is false.

 

[Mickey]

Jesus is God, the Jews don’t believe in Jesus, the Jews don’t believe in God.

Correct.

 

[Godfollower]

God cannot be broken up into parts (nature, mercy, incarnation) and only be believed in those parts. He is and always will be unchanging “world without end. Amen”. You cannot believe in a triune God and say that those who deny the very nature of God worship the same thing.

It’s like believing water is fire (because you are mistaken about the nature of the thing) but being told you really do believe in water because you “think” that water is fire. No!! You really don’t believe in water, just as the Jews and Muslims really don’t believe in the same God. They may think they do, but they don’t!

God bless

So who are the Jews worshipping? Odin? Zeus? Aphrodiite?

Surprise! They’re worshipping the same God Jesus did when He prayed in synagogues and the Temple – God the Father.

There’s only one God, and there’s a lot about Him that we don’t know (they’re called “mysteries”). Do we therefore not worship the correct God, because we don’t know everything about Him?

No: we worship the correct God. So do the Jews; they just don’t understand Him correctly.

 

[Mickey]

Ahhh…this perennial favorite!

Rejection of Christ is rejection of the Father who sent Him, and rejection of His plan for salvation of all mankind. So nobody who rejects the Son can somehow still be worshiping the Father. That includes the Muslims and the Jews and all the other Christ-deniers, and it’s Biblical and Patristic and the whole bit. The Jews don’t worship God, and to make the first deniers of Christ our God into some sort of paragon of worship of God is frankly bizarre.

"Indeed all scripture teems with disproof of Jewish unbelief." - St. Athanasius the Apostolic, On the Incarnation of the Word of God (4th century AD)

I’d trust St. Athanasius a million times over before I’d listen to CCC 841, even if Pope Benedict XIV showed up on my doorstep offering to explain it to me himself. But everyone has to make a choice, I guess. Best of luck in yours, OP.

 

[jam070406]

So who are the Jews worshipping? Odin? Zeus? Aphrodiite?

Surprise! They’re worshipping the same God Jesus did when He prayed in synagogues and the Temple – God the Father.

There’s only one God, and there’s a lot about Him that we don’t know (they’re called “mysteries”). Do we therefore not worship the correct God, because we don’t know everything about Him?

No: we worship the correct God. So do the Jews; they just don’t understand Him correctly.

Is that what Jesus told them? He told the Jews that rejected Him that their father was the devil.

 

[Godfollower]

I am not sure what or who they are worshipping…I suppose Mohammed would have known. But they are not directing their worship to the same God as the Christians. In fact, muslims would be the first to tell you that the Christian Trinitarian God is false.

If they aren’t worshipping the same God we are, then which god are they worshipping? How many gods are there? I’ve always been taught that there’s only one. Do you disagree?

 

[Mickey]

It’s just one clear note that we’re all worshipping the same God.

I don’t think so. It is my understanding that the CCC is not a papal infallible document.

 

[dzheremi]

I find it funny that there are some who would let any group have their own belief – even if it ends up with many different groups, with many different beliefs – and still have them all worshiping the One God. And if someone stands up and says “no, that can’t be right; There is indeed one God, and that’s Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”, then that person is told that they are somehow the one who is making a bunch of different Gods, one each for each different group! Isn’t that funny to anyone else? Really, it’s almost vaudvillean…

Welcome back ladies and gents! Now let’s tune back in as Abba Kyrillos’ brand Orban and St. Ephrem’s brand harp strings present another installment of everyone’s favorite comedy carousel, already and always in progress…

*'WHICH PARAGRAPH OF THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS ON FIRST?'
*
Orthoabbot: “Nope, Christ is God – not an additional God or one-third or whatever, but TRUE GOD. If you don’t worship Christ as God, and the Holy Spirit as God, and God the Father as God, in the uncreated and undivided Holy Trinity, then you don’t worship God”

Cathstello: “But what about the Jewwwwwws? They don’t worship Christ!”

O: “Exactly!”

A: “But that doesn’t make sense!”

O: “Yes, it does. It makes perfect sense. Let’s start again: Christ is God…”

 

[jam070406]

Muslims, Jews, and Christians all worship the same God. They just describe Him differently. And they teach different – radically different – things about Him.

Seeking after a messiah that will destroy your enemies (ie: Christians) and build an earthly kingdom is not worshiping the same true God.

Killing Christians in the name of Allah, conquering countries and spreading sharia law is not worshiping the same true God.

 

[SonCatcher]

I don’t think so. It is my understanding that the CCC is not a papal infallible document.

Correct. Though the Catechism is a generally reliable and faithful presentation of the faith, it is not infallible in itself.

 

[Mickey]

If they aren’t worshipping the same God we are, then which god are they worshipping? How many gods are there? I’ve always been taught that there’s only one. Do you disagree?

I cannot speak for them…I cannot read minds and hearts. I was taught that there is the Trinitarian God…Father, Son and Holy Spirit…one in essence and undivided. The Koran teaches the muslims that there is no Trinity…no God the Son. Sura 4:171 (Koran)– Allah forbid that he should have a son!
And our Sacred Scripture says: 1 John 2:23 (Douay-Rheims)–Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.

It’s pretty clear to me.

 

[Mickey]

I find it funny that there are some who would let any group have their own belief – even if it ends up with many different groups, with many different beliefs – and still have them all worshiping the One God. And if someone stands up and says “no, that can’t be right; There is indeed one God, and that’s Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”, then that person is told that they are somehow the one who is making a bunch of different Gods, one each for each different group! Isn’t that funny to anyone else? Really, it’s almost vaudvillean…

Welcome back ladies and gents! Now let’s tune back in as Abba Kyrillos’ brand Orban and St. Ephrem’s brand harp strings present another installment of everyone’s favorite comedy carousel, already and always in progress…

’WHICH PARAGRAPH OF THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS ON FIRST?'

Orthoabbot: “Nope, Christ is God – not an additional God or one-third or whatever, but TRUE GOD. If you don’t worship Christ as God, and the Holy Spirit as God, and God the Father as God, in the uncreated and undivided Holy Trinity, then you don’t worship God”

Cathstello: “But what about the Jewwwwwws? They don’t worship Christ!”

O: “Exactly!”

A: “But that doesn’t make sense!”

O: “Yes, it does. It makes perfect sense. Let’s start again: Christ is God…”

Another big from the peanut gallery!