Catholic answers please; how do I know if I CAN pray to saints!?

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So because they are united to God, then when someone prays to them, God hears it and tells them?

Dan
In order to answer your question I direct to you the Encyclical of Pope Pius XII called “The Mystical Body of Christ.” You can find it on this website. It is full of Biblical citations to back up the Church’s teachings on this matter. Use a Catholic Bible.
 
My local book stores (chirstian ones anyway) are Anglican and do not have even a Catholic bible in them!
If that’s the case, you are going to have to learn how to navigate around the Catholic Answer website. It’s easy. Just practice.
 
Here is one I have heard many times from my protestant friends…We do not pray to Saints. We ask them, to pray for us. For by themselves, Saints are merely people like us…but, with God who works through them, we acknowledge them as Saints. The only one who has true power is God/ Jesus. And if God wants to work his miracles through devout people, then let him do so. And if God see’s these people as Holy enough to work his miracles through then shouldn’t we as well recognize these people? I mean, if they are good enough to be acknowledged by God, they are surely good enough to be acknowledged by us and given the title of ‘saint’.
—hope this helped!!
 
In order to answer your question I direct to you the Encyclical of Pope Pius XII called “The Mystical Body of Christ.” You can find it on this website. It is full of Biblical citations to back up the Church’s teachings on this matter. Use a Catholic Bible.
I read most of it and do not see an answer to my question. I do not deny that prayers of individuals to God on behalf of others is clearly taught in Scripture. That appeared to be most of what I found when noting when the word pray… was used.

I also note, however, that the body of Christ includes those on earth who have not died. I don’t believe you think prayer to them would be heard, so I don’t understand why appealing to the body of Christ answers my question.

Dan
 
First we have to understand that the saints are alive and are in heaven (Rev.13-17, Wis 3:1-8, Matt 17: 1-5 [transfiguration; Moses and Elijah appear], 1 Thess 3:13, 2 Thess 1: 9-10).

Then we have to realize that death will not separate them from Christ or from us (Rom. 8:35-39).

The Saints are fellow citizens and members of the household of God (Eph. 2:19-22, Heb. 12:1-2).

The prayers of the Saints are taken to throne in heaven by the 24 Elders (Rev.5: 6-8).

Catholics (Orthodox and others) venerate the Saints (Martyrs) for their faithfulness to our Lord Jesus even onto death. They are alive and are in heaven with the Lord, our prayers to them are for them to intercede on our behalf to Jesus Christ. The same as if I asked you to pray for me.

Irenaus (180 A.D.) related’ “The Church does in every place, because of that love which she cherishes toward God, send forward at all times a multitude of martyrs to the Father. In contrast, all others not only have nothing of the kind to point among themselves, but even maintain that all such witness-bearing is not at all necessary.” (Does this sound a little like the situation today, people outside the Church denying the witness-bearing to the Saints?)

Dionysius of Alexandria (262 A.D.) related, “Those Holy Martyrs, who were once with us, are now seated with Christ. They are sharers in His kingdom and partakers with Him in His judgement. They act as His judicial assessors.” (So if they are indeed members of the Body of Christ, why should we not include them in our prayers and ask them to pray for us?)

This is the short answer, all I have time for now.
 
I read most of it and do not see an answer to my question. I do not deny that prayers of individuals to God on behalf of others is clearly taught in Scripture. That appeared to be most of what I found when noting when the word pray… was used.

I also note, however, that the body of Christ includes those on earth who have not died. I don’t believe you think prayer to them would be heard, so I don’t understand why appealing to the body of Christ answers my question.

Dan
It answers your question precisely because the Body of Christ is not divided; it is One Body: the Church on earth, the Church suffering (Purgatory), and the Church triumphant, all united to and in the One Christ Who has established His Church as the extension of His Incarnation. We enjoy Communion with one another - including “our brothers and sisters who have gone before us marked with the sign of faith” - because of our Communion with THE Communion of the Divine Persons of the Most Holy Trinity. Being in Christ we are in union with all that is His - including His Mother. So in the Beatific Vision Christ, within Whom the Blessed are MORE, not less, in union, shows the Blessed the petitions of the brethren on earth, as in God all things are seen, since God is All in all. This is not difficult for God to do. Indeed, a Christianity that does not admit of this intimate communion among members of the one body is very two-dimensional.
 
The question about praying to your nan, vs praying to saints. Who says she’s not a saint?

The process of declaring someone a saint involves investigation of miraculous claims related to those saints after they have passed. If miracles are happening as a result of their intercession then reason would have it that they are in heaven, and that God is hearing their pleas on our behalf.

Apart from that I don’t think there would be any difference in asking relatives who have moved on from this life to pray for you to the Lord. People may not be making pilgrimages to your house, but that’s not really important in the grand scheme of things anyway.
 
It answers your question precisely because the Body of Christ is not divided; it is One Body: the Church on earth, the Church suffering (Purgatory), and the Church triumphant, all united to and in the One Christ Who has established His Church as the extension of His Incarnation. We enjoy Communion with one another - including “our brothers and sisters who have gone before us marked with the sign of faith” - because of our Communion with THE Communion of the Divine Persons of the Most Holy Trinity. Being in Christ we are in union with all that is His - including His Mother. So in the Beatific Vision Christ, within Whom the Blessed are MORE, not less, in union, shows the Blessed the petitions of the brethren on earth, as in God all things are seen, since God is All in all. This is not difficult for God to do. Indeed, a Christianity that does not admit of this intimate communion among members of the one body is very two-dimensional.
Thank you for that explanation. It takes me part of the way there, but not all the way. I still have some difficulty with the concept and also don’t see this taught in Scripture. Lets set that part aside for now. Here are my difficulties:

I can understand the concept of a body who communicates with each other. I also understand the concept of a collective intelligence. Star Trek popularized that concept with the Borg. However it appears that this connection from your description only works one way. I assume that the body on earth who have not yet died don’t have the collective consciousness of the body. I know that you can continue to add stipulations to this body, for example that you feel that those who are resurrected have more powers than individuals on earth.

That leads me to the more substantial difficulty. I do not see anything in Scripture that describes those who are resurrected in heaven as having the kinds of powers they would need to simultaneously listen to a great many prayers from a large distance all at one time. They are described as immortal and incorruptible and as having spiritual bodies. They are not described as having the ability to read minds or listen in on remote conversations. Superman had acute hearing and vision and the Borg have a collective consciousness, but Scripture does not describe the body of Christ in this fashion.

Dan
 
First we have to understand that the saints are alive and are in heaven (Rev.13-17, Wis 3:1-8, Matt 17: 1-5 [transfiguration; Moses and Elijah appear], 1 Thess 3:13, 2 Thess 1: 9-10).

Then we have to realize that death will not separate them from Christ or from us (Rom. 8:35-39).

The Saints are fellow citizens and members of the household of God (Eph. 2:19-22, Heb. 12:1-2).

The prayers of the Saints are taken to throne in heaven by the 24 Elders (Rev.5: 6-8).

Catholics (Orthodox and others) venerate the Saints (Martyrs) for their faithfulness to our Lord Jesus even onto death. They are alive and are in heaven with the Lord, our prayers to them are for them to intercede on our behalf to Jesus Christ. The same as if I asked you to pray for me.

Irenaus (180 A.D.) related’ “The Church does in every place, because of that love which she cherishes toward God, send forward at all times a multitude of martyrs to the Father. In contrast, all others not only have nothing of the kind to point among themselves, but even maintain that all such witness-bearing is not at all necessary.” (Does this sound a little like the situation today, people outside the Church denying the witness-bearing to the Saints?)

Dionysius of Alexandria (262 A.D.) related, “Those Holy Martyrs, who were once with us, are now seated with Christ. They are sharers in His kingdom and partakers with Him in His judgement. They act as His judicial assessors.” (So if they are indeed members of the Body of Christ, why should we not include them in our prayers and ask them to pray for us?)

This is the short answer, all I have time for now.
Thanks, I agree with some of what you wrote but it still does not help me understand how someone in heaven can hear many remote prayers simultaneously which are vocalized, let alone those that are not.

I don’t have a problem with asking someone to pray for another person, for that is biblical. My problem is what bible writer teaches that a resurrected person on earth can read minds and/or that they have the powers I outline in my first paragraph.

Dan
 
Zundrah Re: Catholic answers please; how do I know if I CAN pray to saints!?
What is sola scriptua!?
I’m from a Methodist Church, but I’ve never heard of solar scriptura
!?

Sola scriptura (soli scriptura? correct me if I’m wrong, any other Lutherans), from my understanding, is the idea that our ideas about God and salvation are only found in scripture. So, if a tradition or practice isn’t found in the Bible, then it’s not scriptural, so doesn’t “count.”
 
!?

Sola scriptura (soli scriptura? correct me if I’m wrong, any other Lutherans), from my understanding, is the idea that our ideas about God and salvation are only found in scripture. So, if a tradition or practice isn’t found in the Bible, then it’s not scriptural, so doesn’t “count.”
In my conversations with Evangelicals including Lutherans I have found that while they don’t consider any writings inspired besides the 66 non-apocryphal books they do employ philosophical reasoning which some place one equal plane with Scripture. This happens primarily when they are pushed hard to rationalize the fact that God is three persons when no bible writer teaches it.

Jehovah’s Witnesses, in my view, have a true sola scriptura in that we are only dogmatic on doctrines that bible writers teach in context.

Dan
 
Thanks, I agree with some of what you wrote but it still does not help me understand how someone in heaven can hear many remote prayers simultaneously which are vocalized, let alone those that are not.

I don’t have a problem with asking someone to pray for another person, for that is biblical. My problem is what bible writer teaches that a resurrected person on earth can read minds and/or that they have the powers I outline in my first paragraph.

Dan
Dan, it is a divine mystery, just as, how does Jesus or God the Father hear all our prayers? These are things that us mortals here on Earth are not priviledged to know. We will have to wait until it is our turn to meet the Lord.

It comes down to faith, as our Lord Jesus said; “You have believed because you have seen me. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe” (John 20:29). We can’t see, touch or feel Heaven and don’t everthing that happens there, yet we believe.
 
Thanks, I agree with some of what you wrote but it still does not help me understand how someone in heaven can hear many remote prayers simultaneously which are vocalized, let alone those that are not.

I don’t have a problem with asking someone to pray for another person, for that is biblical. My problem is what bible writer teaches that a resurrected person on earth can read minds and/or that they have the powers I outline in my first paragraph.

Dan
Maybe this will help you to understand the Catholic belief in regards to the Communion of Saints.

Catholics believe that the one Mystical Church and Body of Christ exists on three levels: the Church Triumphant in Heaven, the Church Militant on earth, and the Church Suffering in Purgatory, and that communication can take place between all three. Those of us on earth can pray for the souls in Purgatory and invoke the saints in Heaven. Saints in Heaven pray for those in the other two realms of the Church. The souls in Purgatory also invoke the saints in Heaven and pray for earthly pilgrims.

Protestants are inclined to think that biblical evidence for the Communion of Saints and “saintly intercession” are entirely lacking, but such is assuredly not the case, as the following proofs demonstrate:

1 Samuel 28: 7-20

Tobit 12:12,15

2 Maccabees 15:13-14

Matthew 17:1-3

Matthew 18:10

Matthew 27:50-53

Revelation 1:4

Revelation 5:8

Revelation 8:3-4

Revelation 6:9-10
 
In my conversations with Evangelicals including Lutherans I have found that while they don’t consider any writings inspired besides the 66 non-apocryphal books they do employ philosophical reasoning which some place one equal plane with Scripture. This happens primarily when they are pushed hard to rationalize the fact that God is three persons when no bible writer teaches it.

Jehovah’s Witnesses, in my view, have a true sola scriptura in that we are only dogmatic on doctrines that bible writers teach in context.

Dan
Dan, the Scriptures do not teach sola scriptura. But that is a topic for another thread.
 
(I don’t have a cathechism! How can I look these up?)

P.S. Thank you very much for getting these for me! 😃
You are welcome!

(Remember me in your prayers please. You are in mine!)

Introibo ad altare Dei. (Psalm 42)
 
Okay Zundrah, here we go.

We pray for another as Christians, thus acting - in a sense - as mediators. The saints who have died are included in this process, since they are more alive that we are, as is evident in their activities in the Book of Revelation. God is Creator, but He gives us the privilege of procreation, in childbirth and parenthood. Jesus is the “chief” Shepherd of His flock (John 10:11-16; 1 Peter 5:4), yet He assigns lesser shepherds to watch over His own (John 21:15-17; Ephesians 4:11). And He is the supreme judge, but He bids us to judge as well (Matthew 19:28; 1 Corinthians 6:2-3; Revelation 20:4). Several Biblical passages indicate a sort of mediatorship among believers (1 Corinthinians 9:22; Ephesians 3:2; 1Timothy 4:16) and our working together with God (1 Corinthians 3:9; 2 Corinthians 6:1).

None of this is contrary to Jesus being the sole Mediator of our salvation in the ultimate sense, because it is all THROUGH Him, and entirely ENABLED by Him, and is the APPLICATION of His grace to us (just as prayer plays a role in the distribution of God’s blessings or favors). The saints in heaven were never intended by God to be cut off from the Body of Christ on earth. This is observed in their many interactions with those on earth, as the Biblical passages llisted below.

1Samuel 28:12-15

Jeremiah 15:1

2 Maccabees 15:14

2 Maccabees 15:13-16

Matthew 17:1-3

Matthew 22:30 with Luke 15:10 and 1 Corinthians 4:9

Revelation 5:8

Revelation 6:9-10

Revelation 11:13

Catechism of the Catholic Church # 's 946-948, 954-963, 2673-2679 and 2683
I just wrote all of these down and I will check them up when I get home (I’m in an internet cafe). Thank you Tomster. 😃

P.S. Sorry for my nasty PM’s yesterday! Check out this link below, I got it for you. Make sure you follow it through to the end! 😉

youtube.com/watch?v=Qit3ALTelOo
 
You are welcome!

(Remember me in your prayers please. You are in mine!)

Introibo ad altare Dei. (Psalm 42)
How kind of you to pray for me, I did my Holy Rosary this morning, I will do it again tonight and include you in it; the glorious mysteries! 😃

xxXx zundrah xXxx
 
Thank you for that explanation. It takes me part of the way there, but not all the way. I still have some difficulty with the concept and also don’t see this taught in Scripture. Lets set that part aside for now. Here are my difficulties:

I can understand the concept of a body who communicates with each other. I also understand the concept of a collective intelligence. Star Trek popularized that concept with the Borg. However it appears that this connection from your description only works one way. I assume that the body on earth who have not yet died don’t have the collective consciousness of the body. I know that you can continue to add stipulations to this body, for example that you feel that those who are resurrected have more powers than individuals on earth.

That leads me to the more substantial difficulty. I do not see anything in Scripture that describes those who are resurrected in heaven as having the kinds of powers they would need to simultaneously listen to a great many prayers from a large distance all at one time. They are described as immortal and incorruptible and as having spiritual bodies. They are not described as having the ability to read minds or listen in on remote conversations. Superman had acute hearing and vision and the Borg have a collective consciousness, but Scripture does not describe the body of Christ in this fashion.

Dan
Perhaps some additional information will help.

First of all, do the Blessed in Heaven know what happens on earth?

We must distinguish that the state of the Blessed before and after the General Resurrection. Before the Resurrection these souls are without bodies, and therefore without the natural means of communication with the outer world. Whether a soul purely in the natural order would, by its own power, be able to know something outside itself during its separation from the body, we cannot say with any certainty. We are dealing, however, not with the natural order, but with the supernatural; we are dealing with souls that have received the Beatific Vision.

What knowledge does God, as a matter of fact, grant them according to His good pleasure? We have to guide us, first of all, the fact that the Church authorizes and encourages prayers to the Saints, not only to Saints canonised by the Church, but to any persons of whom we have reasonable hope that they are in heaven. This directly involves the truth that those in heaven know when they are addressed by those on earth; it also implies that they have sufficient cognisanse of all those circumstances which alone can make those prayers intelligible to them. When a person on earth utters a cry for help to any Saint, it is obviously not required that he should first mentally or verbally explain what particular distress is the cause of his cry. We have, further, to guide us the fact that the angels know in detail what happens on earth. “There is more joy before the angels of God upon one sinner that does penance than upon ninety-nine who need not penance.” (Luke 15:10) Christ threatened those who give scandal to the little ones, “for their angels ever see the face of my Father who is in heaven.” The angel-world, therefore, has cognisance of earthly affairs, as they are “ministering angels sent to help those who have received the inheritance of salvation.” As the Blessed share the Beatific Vision with the angels and are their companions, it is unnatural to suppose that they should be in ignorance of what their companions in heaven know. It is an axiom in theology that grace does not destroy nature. It is true still more that glory does not destroy but exalts and sanctifies nature. It would be unnnatural if the departed had no wish to know at least some matters connected with those they loved on earth. It cannot be supposed that God, who grants them the Beatific Vision, would hide from them what they must naturally desire to know.

The Saints, therefore, know, and the Saints care for the welfare of those on earth. They care for their temporal welfare, their health and their sickness, their poverty and their well-being, their honor and dishonor. But they care for these things only as a means towards an end. That end is the eternal salvation and the higher glory of those whom they love. The Saint see all things from the standpoint of eternity. If bitter sufferings, even in those who are nearest and dearist to them, are God’s instruments for the purification and sanctification of their souls, the Saints will not ask for their removal, lest the everlasting happiness of their future companions be lessened. The Saints love their own, but with spiritual, supernatural love, that does not shrink from seeing suffering, if suffering is the path to glory.
 
Perhaps some additional information will help.

First of all, do the Blessed in Heaven know what happens on earth?

We must distinguish that the state of the Blessed before and after the General Resurrection. Before the Resurrection these souls are without bodies, and therefore without the natural means of communication with the outer world. Whether a soul purely in the natural order would, by its own power, be able to know something outside itself during its separation from the body, we cannot say with any certainty. We are dealing, however, not with the natural order, but with the supernatural; we are dealing with souls that have received the Beatific Vision.

What knowledge does God, as a matter of fact, grant them according to His good pleasure? We have to guide us, first of all, the fact that the Church authorizes and encourages prayers to the Saints, not only to Saints canonised by the Church, but to any persons of whom we have reasonable hope that they are in heaven. This directly involves the truth that those in heaven know when they are addressed by those on earth; it also implies that they have sufficient cognisanse of all those circumstances which alone can make those prayers intelligible to them. When a person on earth utters a cry for help to any Saint, it is obviously not required that he should first mentally or verbally explain what particular distress is the cause of his cry. We have, further, to guide us the fact that the angels know in detail what happens on earth. “There is more joy before the angels of God upon one sinner that does penance than upon ninety-nine who need not penance.” (Luke 15:10) Christ threatened those who give scandal to the little ones, “for their angels ever see the face of my Father who is in heaven.” The angel-world, therefore, has cognisance of earthly affairs, as they are “ministering angels sent to help those who have received the inheritance of salvation.” As the Blessed share the Beatific Vision with the angels and are their companions, it is unnatural to suppose that they should be in ignorance of what their companions in heaven know. It is an axiom in theology that grace does not destroy nature. It is true still more that glory does not destroy but exalts and sanctifies nature. It would be unnnatural if the departed had no wish to know at least some matters connected with those they loved on earth. It cannot be supposed that God, who grants them the Beatific Vision, would hide from them what they must naturally desire to know.

The Saints, therefore, know, and the Saints care for the welfare of those on earth. They care for their temporal welfare, their health and their sickness, their poverty and their well-being, their honor and dishonor. But they care for these things only as a means towards an end. That end is the eternal salvation and the higher glory of those whom they love. The Saint see all things from the standpoint of eternity. If bitter sufferings, even in those who are nearest and dearist to them, are God’s instruments for the purification and sanctification of their souls, the Saints will not ask for their removal, lest the everlasting happiness of their future companions be lessened. The Saints love their own, but with spiritual, supernatural love, that does not shrink from seeing suffering, if suffering is the path to glory.
Thanks for your clarification of what Catholics teach. I can certainly understand how someone in heaven could turn their attention towards earth and observe what is going on. We can do the same with television from a long distance. I would imagine that the “science” of the spirit realm surpasses what we have achieved in this century.

However, I still don’t see any evidence that a human being like Mary who is resurrected in heaven right now with the resurrection body described by Paul in 1Co 15 would have the ability to see all over the earth at once, follow thousands of simultaneous prayers and even hear the thoughts of those who do not vocalize those prayers.

All things are possible with God, to be sure. I don’t question that. However I don’t see any Scripture that describes powers like these for resurrected human beings in heaven.
 
Thanks for your clarification of what Catholics teach. I can certainly understand how someone in heaven could turn their attention towards earth and observe what is going on. We can do the same with television from a long distance. I would imagine that the “science” of the spirit realm surpasses what we have achieved in this century.

However, I still don’t see any evidence that a human being like Mary who is resurrected in heaven right now with the resurrection body described by Paul in 1Co 15 would have the ability to see all over the earth at once, follow thousands of simultaneous prayers and even hear the thoughts of those who do not vocalize those prayers.

All things are possible with God, to be sure. I don’t question that. However I don’t see any Scripture that describes powers like these for resurrected human beings in heaven.
Dan,

Please review the Scripture verses I supplied especially the ones from the Book of Revelation.
 
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