Catholic answers please; how do I know if I CAN pray to saints!?

[Zenas]

You want scriptural authority for praying to the saints? Try Hebrews 12:1:

Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.

This is the verse that follows immediately after Chapter 11, which describes the pantheon of O.T. saints. These people are watching us, cheering us on. So why shouldn’t we pray to them? However, it that is not enough, skip down to Hebrews 12:22-24:

22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,
23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

We are already members of the heavenly assembly, brothers in Christ to angels and saints alike. If that is not scriptural authority for praying to the saints, I don’t know what would be.

 

[Dan_Parker]

Dan,

Please review the Scripture verses I supplied especially the ones from the Book of Revelation.

Could you perhaps expound on them a bit. I looked them over and while I did see some such as the prayers of the saints going to the throne, that is exactly where I would expect them to go. Were are the verses that say dead saints can hear live humans or that live humans should pray to dead saints?

 

[Tomster]

Could you perhaps expound on them a bit. I looked them over and while I did see some such as the prayers of the saints going to the throne, that is exactly where I would expect them to go. Were are the verses that say dead saints can hear live humans or that live humans should pray to dead saints?

Dan,

For starters, let’s take a look at Revelation 1:4:

“Grace to you from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne.”

The sacred writer goes so far as to speak of grace and peace being sent to us, not only from the Almighty, but from the seven spirits . . . thus associating the Eternal with the ministers of His mercies; and this carries us on to the remarkable passages of St. Justin Martyr, one of the earliest Fathers of the Church, who, in his “Apology” says, “To Him [God], and His Son who came from Him, and the Prophetic Spirit, we pay veneration and homage.”

Next, Revelation 5:8:

“The four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of all the saints.”

And, Revelation 8:3-4:

“And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.”

It is somewhat unclear whether the twenty-four elders in this scene are angels or men, and commentators differ on it. Early Christian Tradition associated them with the twelve patriarchs of Israel and the Twelve Apostles, representing the churches of the Old and New Covenants (see Isaiah 24:23 and Daniel 7:9-10). References to them clad in white garments, with golden crowns (Revelation 4:4,10) suggests the view that these elders are glorified human beings (see, e.g., 2 Timothy 4:8; James 1:12; 1 Peter 5:4; Revelation 2:10; Revelation 3:5,11; 6:11, 7:9, 13, 14). In any event, in both examples above, creatures - whether men or angels - are involved with our prayers as intercessory intermediaries, which isn’t supposed to happen if the Catholic belief in the intercession of saints and angels is untrue.

 

[Tomster]

Could you perhaps expound on them a bit. I looked them over and while I did see some such as the prayers of the saints going to the throne, that is exactly where I would expect them to go. Were are the verses that say dead saints can hear live humans or that live humans should pray to dead saints?

Dan,

At this point in our discussion I would like to give you another short summary of biblical evidences on this topic.

Prayers for the dead:
Tobit 12:12
2 Maccabees 12:39-45
1 Corinthians 15:29
2 Timothy 1:16-18

“Dead” saints are aware of earthly affairs:
Matthew 22:30
Luke 15:10
1 Corinthians 4:9
Hebrews 12:1

“Dead” saints intercede for those on earth:
Jeremiah 15:1
2 Maccabees 15:14
Revelation 6:9-10

Saints are intermediaries and present our prayers to God:
Revelation 5:8

“Dead” saints appear on earth to interact with men:
1 Samuel 28:12-15 with Sirach 46:20
2 Maccabees 15:13-16
Matthew 17:1-3 and 27:50-53
Revelation 11:3

Guardian Angels:
Psalm 34:7 and 91:11
Matthew 18:10
Acts 12:15
Hebrews 1:14

Angels are aware of our thoughts:
Luke 15:10
1 Corinthians 4:9

Angels participate in the giving of God’s grace:
Revelation 1:4

Angels are intermediaries and present our prayers to God:
Tobit 12;12-15
Revelation 8:3-4 (cf. 5:8)

 

[Tomster]

Could you perhaps expound on them a bit. I looked them over and while I did see some such as the prayers of the saints going to the throne, that is exactly where I would expect them to go. Were are the verses that say dead saints can hear live humans or that live humans should pray to dead saints?

Dan,

Let us consider Revelation 6:9-10 next:

"I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, 'O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth? ’ "

Here the martyrs are uttering what are known as “imprecatory prayers.” These are not so much vengeful as they are a plea for, and recognition of, God’s role as the wrathful Judge who will rescue and vindicate the righteous, either in this life or the next. Examples can be found particularly in the Psalms (35, 59, 69, 79, 109, 139) and in Jeremiah (11:18 ff., 15-15 ff., 18:19 ff., 20-11 ff.).

An angel offers up a very similar prayer in Zechariah 1:12. Jesus mentions a type of this prayer in Matthew 26:53, in which he states that he could have prayed to the Father and received legions of of angels to prevent his arrest, had it been the Father’s will. The idea is the same: prayer for judgment to be wrought upon the enemies of God. At the same time, imprecatory prayers often are intercessions on behalf of the righteous, as in this passage.

Therefore, unarguably, dead saints are praying for Christians on earth. If they can intercede for us, why should we not ask for their prayers? Clearly, they are aware of what is happening on earth, as indicated in this passage and, for instance, Hebrews 12:1. They are more alive, unfathomably more righteous, and obviously closer to God than we are. Omniscience is not required for them to hear our prayers, as is often charged. Rather, we have reason to believe that they are out of time, and therefore not subject to its constraints. We ought ot ask for their prayers just as we would ask for the intercession of a fellow Christian on earth, and, if James 5:16 is true, their prayers will have incomparably more effect.

 

[Tomster]

You want scriptural authority for praying to the saints? Try Hebrews 12:1: This is the verse that follows immediately after Chapter 11, which describes the pantheon of O.T. saints. These people are watching us, cheering us on. So why shouldn’t we pray to them? However, it that is not enough, skip down to Hebrews 12:22-24: We are already members of the heavenly assembly, brothers in Christ to angels and saints alike. If that is not scriptural authority for praying to the saints, I don’t know what would be.

Thanks Zenas.

I hope you take this remark in a charitable way as I do not mean to present it in a negative, confrontational way.

Maybe instead of using the word “pantheon” of O.T. saints we should use the word “multitude” of O.T. saints. The word pantheon means “a place of many gods.”

I agree whole heartedly with the commentary you provided.

Tomster

 

[Dan_Parker]

Dan,

Let us consider Revelation 6:9-10 next:

"I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, 'O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and **avenge our **blood on those who dwell upon the earth? ’ "

Here the martyrs are uttering what are known as “imprecatory prayers.” These are not so much vengeful as they are a plea for, and recognition of, God’s role as the wrathful Judge who will rescue and vindicate the righteous, either in this life or the next. Examples can be found particularly in the Psalms (35, 59, 69, 79, 109, 139) and in Jeremiah (11:18 ff., 15-15 ff., 18:19 ff., 20-11 ff.).

An angel offers up a very similar prayer in Zechariah 1:12. Jesus mentions a type of this prayer in Matthew 26:53, in which he states that he could have prayed to the Father and received legions of of angels to prevent his arrest, had it been the Father’s will. The idea is the same: prayer for judgment to be wrought upon the enemies of God. At the same time, imprecatory prayers often are intercessions on behalf of the righteous, as in this passage.

Therefore, unarguably, dead saints are praying for Christians on earth. If they can intercede for us, why should we not ask for their prayers? Clearly, they are aware of what is happening on earth, as indicated in this passage and, for instance, Hebrews 12:1. They are more alive, unfathomably more righteous, and obviously closer to God than we are. Omniscience is not required for them to hear our prayers, as is often charged. Rather, we have reason to believe that they are out of time, and therefore not subject to its constraints. We ought ot ask for their prayers just as we would ask for the intercession of a fellow Christian on earth, and, if James 5:16 is true, their prayers will have incomparably more effect.

How can you say that the dead saints are praying for someone else when they ask for their own blood to be avenged?

In addition what I am looking for is support that live Christians pray to dead saints or that dead saints can hear their prayers. This passage provides neither.

In don’t have any problem with one human praying for another, as you have shown that is Scriptural.

 

[Tomster]

How can you say that the dead saints are praying for someone else when they ask for their own blood to be avenged?

In addition what I am looking for is support that live Christians pray to dead saints or that dead saints can hear their prayers. This passage provides neither.

In don’t have any problem with one human praying for another, as you have shown that is Scriptural.

Dan,

What I would suggest to you at this point in our discussion is for you to take the time and read all of the Scripture verses that have been provided for you. By doing so it may help clarify things for you.

 

[Dan_Parker]

Dan,

What I would suggest to you at this point in our discussion is for you to take the time and read all of the Scripture verses that have been provided for you. By doing so it may help clarify things for you.

I have done so. Just like the one in Revelation I don’t see any verse that remotely suggests that dead saints can hear live Christians, let alone that live Christians should pray to dead saints.

 

[Tomster]

I have done so. Just like the one in Revelation I don’t see any verse that remotely suggests that dead saints can hear live Christians, let alone that live Christians should pray to dead saints.

Well then, maybe a quick review of the nature of the Church, Christ’s Mystical Body, as Catholics believe, would be helpful.

 

[Dan_Parker]

Well then, maybe a quick review of the nature of the Church, Christ’s Mystical Body, as Catholics believe, would be helpful.

Someone gave me the Encyclical for the Mystical body but I did not see that it answered the question directly. In any event I would need evidence from the bible. I don’t deny Catholics teach this.

 

[Tomster]

Someone gave me the Encyclical for the Mystical body but I did not see that it answered the question directly. In any event I would need evidence from the bible. I don’t deny Catholics teach this.

Well then, perhaps in our discussion we should back up from the doctrine of intercessory prayer and examine the doctrine of the Communion of Saints?

 

[Dan_Parker]

Well then, perhaps in our discussion we should back up from the doctrine of intercessory prayer and examine the doctrine of the Communion of Saints?

Does that doctrine include bible writers who teach that “dead saints can hear live humans?”

 

[Tomster]

Does that doctrine include bible writers who teach that “dead saints can hear live humans?”

Dan,

I know you and I have different beliefs regarding the saints in heaven. Catholics believe they are not dead. As stated in a previous post, we believe they are more alive than either you or I because of their intimate union with Christ.

You continue to call them “dead.” So be it.

I have stated the Catholic belief.

Perhaps you can give us yours?

 

[ziapueblo]

In yesterdays Gospel reading, Luke 4:38-44, Jesus’ disciples interceded for the healing of St. Peter’s mother-in-law. Luke 4:38, “After he left the synagogue, he entered the house of Simon. Simon’s mother-in-law was afflicted with a severe fever, and they interceded with him about her.” Why cannot the saint in Heaven then intercede for us.

In Ephesians 3:14-15 we are called one family in Christ, in heaven and on earth. We are united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. That is what a covenant is, a union, not a contractual agreement. Our brothers and sisters in heaven are still part of that family. This family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.

In Romans 8:35-39, St. Paul writes that death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death. Did Jesus not converse with the “diseased” when he spoke with Moses and Elijah?

St. Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people in his letter to St. Timothy, 1 Timothy 2:1-4. So, since this is pleasing to God, and those that are in heaven are still part of the one family of Christ, Revelation 5:8 makes perfect sense. The prayers of the saints, on heaven and earth, are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven.

We also see in Revelation 6:9-11 that the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment. This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.

 

[Tomster]

In yesterdays Gospel reading, Luke 4:38-44, Jesus’ disciples interceded for the healing of St. Peter’s mother-in-law. Luke 4:38, “After he left the synagogue, he entered the house of Simon. Simon’s mother-in-law was afflicted with a severe fever, and they interceded with him about her.” Why cannot the saint in Heaven then intercede for us.

In Ephesians 3:14-15 we are called one family in Christ, in heaven and on earth. We are united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. That is what a covenant is, a union, not a contractual agreement. Our brothers and sisters in heaven are still part of that family. This family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.

In Romans 8:35-39, St. Paul writes that death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death. Did Jesus not converse with the “diseased” when he spoke with Moses and Elijah?

St. Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people in his letter to St. Timothy, 1 Timothy 2:1-4. So, since this is pleasing to God, and those that are in heaven are still part of the one family of Christ, Revelation 5:8 makes perfect sense. The prayers of the saints, on heaven and earth, are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven.

We also see in Revelation 6:9-11 that the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment. This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.

Amen !

 

[SD_Catholic]

Does that doctrine include bible writers who teach that “dead saints can hear live humans?”

I don’t know if this was given to you yet or not, but perhaps it will be of help. It doesn’t say that we should pray to saints (and no where will you find that exact quote in Scripture), but sometimes we have to use a bit of logical reasoning to help us understand… If we as saints are to judge the world and angels (obviously after our souls have been perfected in heaven), how could they also not know the inner hearts of those others… certainly not through their own power, but through God’s grace and will they evidentily have been given the power to know these things or they wouldn’t be able to judge them fairly… I think that makes it logically easy to believe that they could also hear our prayers.

1 Corinthians 6:2-3
“2
Do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world? If the world is to be judged by you, are you unqualified for the lowest law courts?
3
Do you not know that we will judge angels? Then why not everyday matters?”

SD

 

[twb1621]

How can you say that the dead saints are praying for someone else when they ask for their own blood to be avenged?

In addition what I am looking for is support that live Christians pray to dead saints or that dead saints can hear their prayers. This passage provides neither.

In don’t have any problem with one human praying for another, as you have shown that is Scriptural.

*The saints are not only eternal souls in Heaven, they are aware of what occurs in our lives, serve God as His messengers and servants, capable of interaction and intervention on our behalf as God wills. They do His will FOR US and in support of His faithful when in need. This certainly includes praying for us. *

*Luke CH20; 34 Jesus said to them, " 36 They can no longer die, for they are like angels; and they are the children of God because they are the ones who will rise. 9 37 That the dead will rise even Moses made known in the passage about the bush, when he called ‘Lord’ the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; 38 **and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive." ***

***"Mat 17:2 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. ***

Note; Moses, Elias and Jesus met, they were conversing with Him and it was witnessed by the apostles verifying the Saints contiue in existence and when God so wills, can communicate and capable of understanding our prayers and praying for us as the holy of our Lord.

***Luke CH 24; 4 While they were puzzling over this, behold, two men in dazzling garments appeared to them. ***

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Note; interaction

Psalms CH30 [29];** 4 [5] Sing praises to the LORD, O you his saints, and give thanks to his holy name.***

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Note; Directing prayer to the saints

*1 Corinthians CH14; 32 Indeed, the spirits of prophets are under the prophets’ control, 33 since he is not the God of disorder but of peace. *
Note; self explanatory.

Onias saw the deceased prophet Jeremiah praying for Israel:
“What he saw was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews. Then in the same fashion another appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority. And Onias spoke, saying, This is a man who loves the family of Israel and prays much for the people and the holy city––Jeremiah, the prophet of God. Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed him thus: Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries”*** (2 Macc. 15:12-16). ***

Psalms CH34; 7 The angel of the LORD encamps around those who fear him, and delivers them. 8 O taste and see that the LORD is good! Happy is the man who takes refuge in him! 9** O fear the LORD, you his saints, for those who fear him have no want!*

Note; The holy enter heaven joining the angels, which is support for them being “alive” as eternal souls. Therefore as shown throughout scripture, the holy can respond through prayer, as messengers of God and through God’s design as He so wills. Refer to the referenced scripture as an example. They are aware and capable of praying for us no less so than if we ask anyone else. Although they have the edge of being Holy in compared to those still on this earthly pilgrimage.

continued next post…

 

[twb1621]

How can you say that the dead saints are praying for someone else when they ask for their own blood to be avenged?

In addition what I am looking for is support that live Christians pray to dead saints or that dead saints can hear their prayers. This passage provides neither.

In don’t have any problem with one human praying for another, as you have shown that is Scriptural.

continued from previous post…

***(St. Luke 20:36 38)Christ declared that the just dead are “equal to angels” for God “is God not of the dead, but of the living; for to him all of them are alive” ***

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Hebrews Ch12; 1 “ideoque et nos tantam habentes (name removed by moderator)ositam nubem testium deponentes omne pondus et circumstans nos peccatum per patientiam curramus propositum nobis certamen.”

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Hebrews Ch12; 1 And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us
**nubem **= to seeing / testium = witness.

The combination refers to visually witness. It pertains to witnessing as in seeing. Also, to witness is not in any way limited in meaning to those who testify and in this regard, no where is it referred to as such.

Note; Old Testament saints are called “a great cloud of witnesses” that surround the believers in Christ. Hence, it follows that both angels and humans in heaven are aware of what is happening on earth.

With charity and humility in the love of God we are brought the closest to Him. Our souls do not die, they are eternal and begin their eternal life after mortal death. Those worthy or once purified through the grace of God enter the kingdom of heaven as is stressed throughout scripture. Once we have entered our eternal life we are no longer limited by our human mind.

So what we see all throughout scripture is our souls are alive and souls who are worthy go to heaven as in Holy ones or saints, and saints can hear and respond as so God wills.

 

[Dan_Parker]

continued from previous post…

***(St. Luke 20:36 38)Christ declared that the just dead are “equal to angels” for God “is God not of the dead, but of the living; for to him all of them are alive” ***

---

Hebrews Ch12; 1 “ideoque et nos tantam habentes (name removed by moderator)ositam nubem testium deponentes omne pondus et circumstans nos peccatum per patientiam curramus propositum nobis certamen.”

---

Hebrews Ch12; 1 And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us
**nubem **= to seeing / testium = witness.

The combination refers to visually witness. It pertains to witnessing as in seeing. Also, to witness is not in any way limited in meaning to those who testify and in this regard, no where is it referred to as such.

Note; Old Testament saints are called “a great cloud of witnesses” that surround the believers in Christ. Hence, it follows that both angels and humans in heaven are aware of what is happening on earth.

With charity and humility in the love of God we are brought the closest to Him. Our souls do not die, they are eternal and begin their eternal life after mortal death. Those worthy or once purified through the grace of God enter the kingdom of heaven as is stressed throughout scripture. Once we have entered our eternal life we are no longer limited by our human mind.

So what we see all throughout scripture is our souls are alive and souls who are worthy go to heaven as in Holy ones or saints, and saints can hear and respond as so God wills.

Thanks for the explanation. However I don’t see any passage that says that those resurrected to heaven have the capability of hearing many simultaneous prayers from places all over the earth, whether vocal or non vocalized. I also don’t see any passage that directs humans to pray to dead saints.