Catholic answers please; how do I know if I CAN pray to saints!?

[tmac1956]

Yes, that makes sense to me. It also makes sense to me that asking for intercession from a saint is like asking a friend to pray for you. That’s how it was explained to me…that since we have eternal life, that it’s okay to ask a friend in Heaven to pray for you like you would a friend on Earth.

But alas, my “sola scriptura” relatives beg to differ…

Perhaps you should ask your relatives where scripture states that it is the only source of authority regarding the faith. They cannot because it does not. If everything must come directly from scripture then why isn’t that command found in scripture itself?

Coming from a Southern Baptist background, I think many Protestants equate the word “pray” with the word “worship.” That may be part of their problem as well.
God Bless!

 

[Dan_Parker]

Yes, that makes sense to me. It also makes sense to me that asking for intercession from a saint is like asking a friend to pray for you. That’s how it was explained to me…that since we have eternal life, that it’s okay to ask a friend in Heaven to pray for you like you would a friend on Earth.

But alas, my “sola scriptura” relatives beg to differ…

One can pray to one, but how does one know they can hear you? According to the ancient Hebrews who were inspired to write the Psalms and other passages, the dead are not ablle to praise Yahewh.

NAB Psalm 115:17 (1 )The dead do not praise the LORD, all those gone down into silence.
NJB Psalm 115:17 The dead cannot praise Yahweh, those who sink into silence,

That being the case, how can they help you?

 

[SD_Catholic]

One can pray to one, but how does one know they can hear you? According to the ancient Hebrews who were inspired to write the Psalms and other passages, the dead are not ablle to praise Yahewh.

NAB Psalm 115:17 (1 )The dead do not praise the LORD, all those gone down into silence.
NJB Psalm 115:17 The dead cannot praise Yahweh, those who sink into silence,

That being the case, how can they help you?

They can’t because they’re dead! They did not listen to God. Did you purposely leave out verse 18, which talks about those who are faithful to God will praise Him now and forever? The saints are not dead… you’ve been shown where Scripture states those in heaven with God are alive… these would be the saints we ask to pray for us… Those dead, are dead in Christ, they have no life in them… They are not saints. We don’t ask the dead to pray for us… this seems to be a great stumbling block in your understanding of how Catholics view the Church family.

SD

 

[sbrueck]

My local book stores (chirstian ones anyway) are Anglican and do not have even a Catholic bible in them!

you can get many cath. books in regular book stores, like Barnes and Nobles, or on Amazon, EWTN web site, catholic websites…
You are seeking the truth, thats wonderful, go for it !!!“seek and you will find”, I love you!

 

[Dan_Parker]

They can’t because they’re dead! They did not listen to God. Did you purposely leave out verse 18, which talks about those who are faithful to God will praise Him now and forever? The saints are not dead… you’ve been shown where Scripture states those in heaven with God are alive… these would be the saints we ask to pray for us… Those dead, are dead in Christ, they have no life in them… They are not saints. We don’t ask the dead to pray for us… this seems to be a great stumbling block in your understanding of how Catholics view the Church family.

SD

That was my point. The dead cannot praise God. No one can until they are resurrected. That is why I made the point that praying to a dead saint would do no good. Do Catholics teach that the resurrection has already occurred? I did not think they did. Please advise me on that.

 

[SD_Catholic]

That was my point. The dead cannot praise God. No one can until they are resurrected. That is why I made the point that praying to a dead saint would do no good. Do Catholics teach that the resurrection has already occurred? I did not think they did. Please advise me on that.

Christ’s resurrection yes.

We do not pray to the dead body (perhaps in front of but not to)… which does die. The soul of that saint is what lives with Christ in heaven and never dies (our body is an earthly vessel for our soul). Our bodies (hoping we make it to heaven) will be resurrected on the last day when Christ comes again in all his glory. Our human bodies and weaknesses is what limits us on earth… It is beyond our comprehension what a perfected soul in heaven will have the abilities to do. We as Catholics have no doubt that a perfected soul hearing our prayers is one of those abilites.

SD

 

[twb1621]

Thanks for the explanation. However I don’t see any passage that says that those resurrected to heaven have the capability of hearing many simultaneous prayers from places all over the earth, whether vocal or non vocalized.

Scripture is the LIVING Word of God and as such should never be read as a “book”. Beyond the written word is the life that it expresses. The fact that there are those verses throughout scripture that show us the saints, upon our (those in need of intervention) prayers have at times appeared and intervened not only to deliver messages but in some cases visually if not physically intervene or delivered God’s word or what have you shows they have the ability to respond and intercede as God wills. also verses that show saints or prophets have joined the living in prayer as we see in scripture. It has no bearing how many prayers they here at one time, how they filter them or what geographic region the prayers come from as we also don’t know how that works with God either. Does God “hear” every prayer at one time or does he have some way of filtering them so they make sense to Him? Or does God not hear them at all but rather sense the need we have for Him to hear us because we are of Him in spirit? The same for the saints. The human body consists of many nerve endings all extending from our brain that allow us to sense touch or pleasure or pain anywhere on our body at once. Does God and the saints have a comparable but spiritual sense to understand us as co-spirits of our Creator? To believe in scripture as the inspired word of God means we must also accept the saints exist in heaven, can be sent or respond and understand us and serve as messengers of God so there is obvious communication and communication goes both ways, not one so in some sense we do not know but through faith must accept. It is insignificant to us how it works as long as we have faith. They are obviously in communication with God and have responded in scripture to the prayers of man and there are shown occasions that man has prayed to them whether prophets or the faithful instructing them to worship God for whatever reason. We are beyond limited in our ability to understand these things so to concentrate on that aspect is useless as long as we know they DO have the ability and do serve as messengers of God as scripture tells us.

I also don’t see any passage that directs humans to pray to dead saints.

You are not reading what has been presented to you properly. Are those saints in the verses I presented you “dead” or living souls sent by God? Even visions are a method God Himself has told us through scripture He would use to communicate with us. You also do not see many other things like how did Jesus get out of the tomb? Did He roll the stone back Himself or did He have angels or saints move it for Him or whatever.

 

[twb1621]

One can pray to one, but how does one know they can hear you? According to the ancient Hebrews who were inspired to write the Psalms and other passages, the dead are not ablle to praise Yahewh.
NAB Psalm 115:17 (1 )The dead do not praise the LORD, all those gone down into silence.
NJB Psalm 115:17 The dead cannot praise Yahweh, those who sink into silence,
That being the case, how can they help you?

Psalm 115: 115 1 Not to us, O LORD, not to us, but to thy name give glory, for the sake of thy steadfast love and thy faithfulness!
2 Why should the nations say, “Where is their God?”
3 Our God is in the heavens; he does whatever he pleases.
4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men’s hands.
5 They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see.
6 They have ears, but do not hear; noses, but do not smell.
7 They have hands, but do not feel; feet, but do not walk; and they do not make a sound in their throat.
8 Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them.
9 O Israel, trust in the LORD! He is their help and their shield.
10 O house of Aaron, put your trust in the LORD! He is their help and their shield.
11 You who fear the LORD, trust in the LORD! He is their help and their shield.
12 The LORD has been mindful of us; he will bless us; he will bless the house of Israel; he will bless the house of Aaron;
13 he will bless those who fear the LORD, both small and great.
14 May the LORD give you increase, you and your children!
15 May you be blessed by the LORD, who made heaven and earth!
16 The heavens are the LORD’s heavens, but the earth he has given to the sons of men.
17 The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any that go down into silence.
18 But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD!

The verse you refer to speaks of the sons of man given to the earth as those who did not and do not praise the Lord and who are dead in spirit. Its not that they couldn’t praise God because they were dead, but rather because they did not praise God, they are dead.

 

[Tomster]

Dan,

I know you and I have different beliefs regarding the saints in heaven. Catholics believe they are not dead. As stated in a previous post, we believe they are more alive than either you or I because of their intimate union with Christ.

You continue to call them “dead.” So be it.

I have stated the Catholic belief.

Perhaps you can give us yours?

I think the time has now come, Dan, for you to give us your belief on this topic.

“Always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence.” - 1 Peter 3:15

 

[St_Aloysius_1]

Dan,

Jesus said all who die in Him have everlasting life, so Catholics are not praying to the dead when we speak to the saints. We are praying to those who have gained salvation and eternal life in heaven.

The rest of your questions are a matter of belief. You either have it or you don’t.

 

[Tomster]

Dan,

Jesus said all who die in Him have everlasting life, so Catholics are not praying to the dead when we speak to the saints. We are praying to those who have gained salvation and eternal life in heaven.

The rest of your questions are a matter of belief. You either have it or you don’t.

Thank you very much !

 

[twb1621]

That was my point. The dead cannot praise God. No one can until they are resurrected. That is why I made the point that praying to a dead saint would do no good. Do Catholics teach that the resurrection has already occurred? I did not think they did. Please advise me on that.

I realize JW believe the dead are dead until the resurrection with the body, but the JW do not take into account the OT scripture that it conflicts with and there is a great deal. Think of how you would justify the existence of prophets and saints in heaven when we know they died mortally at one point but exist as eternally living souls just as the angels, as attested to in scripture? You must consider the soul does not die and scripture shows us the soul does not remain in the grave, but does for the holy receive the grace of God and the gift of heaven. The resurrection with the body does not require the souls of the holy to remain within any constraints.

You might also research the prophecies provided us in the Old Testament by the inspired word of God our Father of the coming of the Messiah and the conception, life, death and resurrection of Christ, if you haven’t done so.

 

[Tomster]

Dan,

You might want to take a look at this:

catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

 

[Dan_Parker]

Dan,

Jesus said all who die in Him have everlasting life, so Catholics are not praying to the dead when we speak to the saints. We are praying to those who have gained salvation and eternal life in heaven.

The rest of your questions are a matter of belief. You either have it or you don’t.

I would challenge you to present your passage so we can look at it in context. “Having” eternal life when one dies because of having died faithfully and having the prospect of a resurrection does not indicate that one never dies in the first place.

 

[Dan_Parker]

Dan,

You might want to take a look at this:

catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

I had not read this, but now I see where someone on this list got their argument. From the link:
Can They Hear Us?

One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

My reply was to point out that these prayers are to avenge “our blood” and not on behalf of those on the earth.

NAB Revelation 6:10 They cried out in a loud voice, “How long will it be, holy and true master, before you sit in judgment and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?”

 

[Dan_Parker]

twb162
I realize JW believe the dead are dead until the resurrection with the body, but the JW do not take into account the OT scripture that it conflicts with and there is a great deal.

Dan:
At the end of the bible we are given more detail that at the beginning, don’t you agree?
NJB Revelation 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over; this is the first resurrection.

What OT scripture denies that the resurrection is what causes the dead one to live again?

**
twb1621**
Think of how you would justify the existence of prophets and saints in heaven when we know they died mortally at one point but exist as eternally living souls just as the angels, as attested to in scripture? You must consider the soul does not die

Dan:
I could consider that the soul does not die briefly until I read in both the OT and NT that it does die.

• DRA Ezekiel 18:4 Behold all souls are mine: as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, the same shall die.
• DRA Numbers 23:10 Who can count the dust of Jacob, and know the number of the stock of Israel? Let my soul die the death of the just, and my last end be like to them.
• DRA Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea. And there came blood as it were of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

 

[PapaSquash]

Thanks, I agree with some of what you wrote but it still does not help me understand how someone in heaven can hear many remote prayers simultaneously which are vocalized, let alone those that are not.

I don’t have a problem with asking someone to pray for another person, for that is biblical. My problem is what bible writer teaches that a resurrected person on earth can read minds and/or that they have the powers I outline in my first paragraph.

Dan

The ACTUAL bible writer, the Holy Spirit, teaches this through his church.

And, once a saint is in heaven, “remote” and “simultaneous” don’t apply.

We’re talking about Christianity here. The existence of supernatural things that we don’t understand perfectly are a given. If you want the Borg, watch TV.

If you want to be able to place demands on God that he explain things to you, or answer to you; then I advise you to look around carefully to make sure you’re sitting on the sideline you want to be on when the final bell rings.

 

[twb1621]

twb162
I realize JW believe the dead are dead until the resurrection with the body, but the JW do not take into account the OT scripture that it conflicts with and there is a great deal.

First lets state a fact that scripture DOES NOT contradict itself in any way. So every verse regardless of whether I or you present it, must coincide with each other. Now, in this regard, it doesn’t matter where in scripture any verse appears, it will not conflict. It cannot. It is the word of God. So as long as we realize this, we have a place to begin and a foundation to build on.

Now I suggest you take the verses I presented you previously and those you presented to others that I offered responses to start with. Reconsider those and I will add my response to the above for your consideration also.

twb162
I realize JW believe the dead are dead until the resurrection with the body, but the JW do not take into account the OT scripture that it conflicts with and there is a great deal.

Dan:
At the end of the bible we are given more detail that at the beginning, don’t you agree?

I also realize the JW centers on Revelations, but where a verse falls is only determined by the placement of that book in the Bible and that was determined by the Catholic Church at the time the books were selected based on their authenticity among other things. Where a verse is does not affect its authority as the inspired word of God.
NJB Revelation 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over; this is the first resurrection.
What OT scripture denies that the resurrection is what causes the dead one to live again?

The soul is not dead but rejoined with the body. The body certainly is dead. But What OT scripture claims that the soul ever dies and comes back to its life at any time other than those condemned? The resurrection is what causes the dead one to live again?

Revelation 20; 1 1 Then I saw an angel come down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the abyss 2 and a heavy chain. 2 He seized the dragon, the ancient serpent, which is the Devil or Satan, 3 and tied it up for a thousand years 3 and threw it into the abyss, which he locked over it and sealed, so that it could no longer lead the nations astray until the thousand years are completed. After this, it is to be released for a short time. 4 Then I saw thrones; those who sat on them were entrusted with judgment. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image nor had accepted its mark 4 on their foreheads (the mark on their foreheads being a corrupt or sinful mind). They came to life and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead (those sinful kept away as with the beast) did not come to life until the thousand years were over. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed 5 and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over these; they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for (the) thousand years.
This is not in conflict at all with any of the previously presented verses showing the living souls of the holy in heaven. Again, the soul rejoins the body when the body returns at the resurrection.

continued next post.

 

[twb1621]

continued from previous post…

---

twb162
I realize JW believe the dead are dead until the resurrection with the body, but the JW do not take into account the OT scripture that it conflicts with and there is a great deal.

twb1621
Think of how you would justify the existence of prophets and saints in heaven when we know they died mortally at one point but exist as eternally living souls just as the angels, as attested to in scripture? You must consider the soul does not die

Dan:
I could consider that the soul does not die briefly until I read in both the OT and NT that it does die.
· DRA Ezekiel 18:4 Behold all souls are mine: as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, the same shall die.

Why did you switch Bible versions?

NAB Ezekiel 18; 4 For all lives are mine; the life of the father is like the life of the son, both are mine; only the one who sins shall die.
***Latin Vulgate ******Ezekiel 18;***4 Behold all souls are mine: as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, the same shall die. 5 And if a man be just, and do judgment and justice, 6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel: and hath not defiled his neighbour’s wife, nor come near to a menstruous woman: 7 And hath not wronged any man: but hath restored the pledge to the debtor, hath taken nothing away by violence: hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment: 8 Hath not lent upon usury, nor taken any increase: hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, and hath executed true judgment between man and man: 9 Hath walked in my commandments, and kept my judgments, to do truth: ***he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God. ***

All sinful die. That has nothing in opposition to the holy or faithful going to heaven with the Father.

continued next post…

 

[twb1621]

continued from previous post.

twb162
I realize JW believe the dead are dead until the resurrection with the body, but the JW do not take into account the OT scripture that it conflicts with and there is a great deal.

DRA Numbers 23:10 Who can count the dust of Jacob, and know the number of the stock of Israel? Let my soul die the death of the just, and my last end be like to them.
Numbers 23: 8 How can I curse whom God has not cursed? How denounce whom the LORD has not denounced? 9 2 For from the top of the crags I see him, from the heights I behold him. Here is a people that lives apart and does not reckon itself among the nations. 10 3 Who has ever counted the dust of Jacob, or numbered Israel’s wind-borne particles? May I die the death of the just, may my descendants be as many as theirs! 11 “What have you done to me?” cried Balak to Balaam. “It was to curse my foes that I brought you here; instead, you have even blessed them.”
Israel, as the chosen people of God, occupied a unique place among the nations, from which they kept themselves aloof. “The dust of Jacob” or “Israel’s wind-borne particles” means the Israelites will be as numerous as dust in a desert sandstorm. “May I die the death of the just, may my descendants be as many as theirs!" A idea by which Balaam swears he is speaking the truth; he sees the reward of virtue in having numerous descendants.
But it Does not pertain to what we are referring to.

DRA Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea. And there came blood as it were of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
1-21] These seven bowls, like the seven seals (⇒ Rev 6:1-17; ⇒ 8:1) and the seven trumpets (⇒ Rev 8:2-⇒ 9:21; ⇒ 11:15-19), bring on a succession of disasters modeled in part on the plagues of Egypt (Exodus 7-12). See the note on ⇒ Rev 6:12-14.
[2] Like the sixth Egyptian plague (⇒ Exodus 9:8-11).
[3-4] Like the first Egyptian plague (⇒ Exodus 7:20-21). The same woe followed the blowing of the second trumpet (⇒ Rev 8:8-9).

NAB CH16; 3 3 The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea. The sea turned to blood like that from a corpse; every creature living in the sea died.
Latin vulgate CH 16; 3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea, and there came blood as it were of a dead man; ***and every living soul died in the sea. ***
What lives in the sea? Not man, but sea creatures. Now we know they do not have souls so that tells us it is figurative and referring to “every single Creature”.