T
twb1621
Guest
The thread will speak for itself.
In our prayers…
- Status
In our prayers…
S
St_Aloysius_1
Guest
Your sola scriptura relatives are probably wrong more often than right in their interpretation of the Word. Bible only poeple usually start with a wrongheaded premise - it’s wrong to pray to saints - and then find selective, incomplete or out of context passages to prove their point.
Saints in heaven have eternal life through Jesus Christ, so you are not praying to the dead. They have acheived the salvation we all hope to. Tell them, too, that prayer and worship are two different things and that Catholics reserve their worship for God alone. Asking the departed saints who have gained eternal life to intercede through prayer for you is no different than asking a friend or congregation to do the same thing.
I say you should clear up the point about praying to the dead. You are praying to souls who have eternal life with Jesus. Then ask them what the objection is. Should we never ask anyone to pray for us? Is that the conclusion?
Saints in heaven have eternal life through Jesus Christ, so you are not praying to the dead. They have acheived the salvation we all hope to. Tell them, too, that prayer and worship are two different things and that Catholics reserve their worship for God alone. Asking the departed saints who have gained eternal life to intercede through prayer for you is no different than asking a friend or congregation to do the same thing.
I say you should clear up the point about praying to the dead. You are praying to souls who have eternal life with Jesus. Then ask them what the objection is. Should we never ask anyone to pray for us? Is that the conclusion?
D
Dan_Parker
Guest
What I have seen here is that Catholics believe it is necessary to pray to those who have not yet been resurrected to life and then assume that this is correct unless there is a passage that says “Don’t pray to the Saints!”. That is an argument from silence.
What we do have are specific instructions as to how to pray and also Scriptural examples of how to pray.
NAB Matthew 6:9 "This is how you are to pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread; 12 and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors;
There is no example in scripture of a Christian praying to a Saint, but there are plenty examples of Christians praying to the Father in the name of Jesus. (John 14:6,14)
The question as to whether or not we should have anyone to pray for us is answered in the bible. It is yes. We are told to pray for others and there are examples of Christians praying for other Christians.
That begs the question and it is confusing to me how you would consider this as proof that Christians are to pray TO other Christians, whether they are bodiless souls or alive on earth.
Let me ask you this for I do not know the answer: Do you pray to living Christians on the earth and if no, why not?
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
The Catholic Church does not teach that "it is necessary to pray to those who have not yet been resurrected to life (the dead).
We can if we want to, but we are not required to do so. My NWT reads as follows:
26 But concerning the dead, that they are raised up, did YOU not read in the book of Moses, in the account about the thornbush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob’? 27 He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living. YOU are much mistaken.”
We can pray to the saints who are alive with God in heaven.
D
Dan_Parker
Guest
Yes, for to him, all are alive:
NJB Luke 20:38 Now he is God, not of the dead, but of the living; for **to him **everyone is alive.’
That is not the same as saying that they are already alive. If that does not convince you then look at the context. Jesus was using the fact that God is a God of the living because they all live “to him” as proof of the future resurrection.
NAB Luke 20:37 **That the dead will rise **even Moses made known in the passage about the bush, when he called ‘Lord’ the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; 38 and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."
The hope for these is the resurrection, not an immortal soul. After all, if ALL humans have immortal souls then no-one is really dead (at least the wicked are no more dead than those of whom Jesus speaks here!).
Can you pray to Christians who are on the earth and have not yet died? See the subject of this post which asked the question of Catholics:
**
Do you pray to living Christians on the earth and if no, why not?**
K
kepha1
Guest
In this age of information, it amazes me that ministers can have such hardened and rebellious hearts as to be so IGNORANT of what Catholics mean by the Communion of Saints, not communion of dead people. He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living. Protestantism has severed heaven from earth. The family of God is one family, on earth with those in heaven. Protestantism attempts to reduced the family of God into a broken home. God does not have a different and separate love for those in heaven with those on earth. No amount of bible verses seems to make any difference, partly because the Tradition of the Communion of Saints as a doctrine developed AFTER the Epistles were enscripturated, and very convenient to dismiss the Jewish understanding of the afterlife, AND IT WAS NOT PROTESTANT.
D
Don9of11
Guest
Dan, I have been following this thread for some time now and I have comment only a couple of times. I am interested in how you interpret Matt 27: 51-53? How do you account for those saints who were raised?
I had a similar debate with my nephew who is a fallen away catholic and after discussing our debate with the deacon at church no amount of bible verses will change his thinking. In fact it is impossible to have a meaningful exchange because he like you are not seeking the truth but instead debating the literal sense of the scriptures and totally ignoring the fuller sense of the Bible. What is God trying to teach us about the passage? It is the Holy Spirit working through me and others who will bring you to the truth.
I had a similar debate with my nephew who is a fallen away catholic and after discussing our debate with the deacon at church no amount of bible verses will change his thinking. In fact it is impossible to have a meaningful exchange because he like you are not seeking the truth but instead debating the literal sense of the scriptures and totally ignoring the fuller sense of the Bible. What is God trying to teach us about the passage? It is the Holy Spirit working through me and others who will bring you to the truth.
T
twb1621
Guest
No one says you can’t pray to God, No one says you can’t pray to Christ, our Lord. In fact the entire Catholic mass is composed of scriptural verses praying to God and the center point of the Eucharistic celebration which every one is entitled to receive in a worthly state. Is it true that the JW follow the premise that those who claim their own self-righteousness receive at an annual “passover meal” and in so doing claim themselves as one of what you refer to as the “chosen 144,000” and they disfellowship others through public judgement not allowing their families to even have anything to do with them or risk being judged and disfellowshiped themselves? This would indicate a direct opposition to scripture were in comparison praying to saints is supported by scripture as seen earlier in this thread.
Now, I’ve included scripture even in the OT that shows praying to saints is not objectionable and even shown where God has sent the saints to intervene for us, AND to join us in prayer. Your response was " why are on referring so much to the Old Testiment?"
You can verify this by going over the thread but you wont. You’ll write it off again rather than refer to scripture that contradicts what you are trying to promote.
D
Dan_Parker
Guest
Well, I don’t think I have ever been insulted while being asked for help
In any event the word used in Mt 27:51-53 is EIGEIRW which means raised and not resurrect which is ANASTHSW. The interpretation that an earthquake raised these corpses out of the ground is just as “literal” as any other explanation. Here are some factors, off the top of my head, that militate against this being a resurrection.- Bible writers teach that the resurrection is at the second coming.
- The resurrection is to be accomplished by the voice of the Son, not an earthquake.
- When Paul argues for the resurrection he uses as proof that many saw Jesus after he was killed, not that many people saw the dead from this passage.
T
twb1621
Guest
Then explain the intervention of the sainst Dan. If you can’t credibly explain it your interpretations are distorted and in turn you are distorting the word of God.Well, I don’t think I have ever been insulted while being asked for help
- Bible writers teach that the resurrection is at the second coming.
- The resurrection is to be accomplished by the voice of the Son, not an earthquake.
- When Paul argues for the resurrection he uses as proof that many saw Jesus after he was killed, not that many people saw the dead from this passage.
T
Tomster
Guest
Dan,
That it is lawfull to pray FOR each other is admitted by all. St. Paul in his epistle to the Romans says: “Now I beseech you brethren, for the Lord’s Jesus Christ sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that you strive together with me in your prayers to God for me.” (Romans 15:30)
Catholics believe that we can pray for each other while we are yet alive, and also that we can pray to the saints and that they are able to intercede in our behalf, and assist us by their prayers before the throne of God. JW’s deny that the saints in heaven can intercede for us. Let us, again, see what the Bible says. I will take nothing for granted but will give, again, plenty of proof from the Word of God. St. John, in the book of Revelation describes the saints before the throne of God praying for their earthly brethren, “And when he had taken the Book, the four beasts, and the four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odors which are the prayers of the saints.” (Revelation 5:8)
In the Book of Maccabees, we read how Judas Maccabees before he engaged in battle with Nicanor had a vision in which he saw Onias the high priest and Jeremiah the prophet: Onias prayed with outstrectched arms for the people of God and pointing to Jeremiah he said to Judas Maccabeus. “This is a lover his brethren, and the people of Israel. This is he that prayeth much for the people and for all the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God” (Mac. 15:14)
Now Jeremiah and Onias were long since dead at that time that this vision took place, and yet they are represented as being interested in their brethren and praying for their success in battle.
We read in the Gospel of St. Luke 16:27 how even Dives prayed that a messenger should be sent to his friends to warn them against hell, and if Dives who was in hell was so interested in the welfare of his friends, who can suppose that the saints cannot intercede on our behalf?
Again, if the devil goes about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8) is it possible that that the good angels can do nothing to protect us from peril? These passages from the Bible ought to satisfy any reasonable person that the saints in heaven can, and do intercede fro their brethren on earth.
That the belief of Catholics at present was the belief of the early Church can be fully borne out by extracts from the writings of the Early Church Fathers from the 2nd through the 5th centuries long before the JW’s ever came into existence.
Once again, I hope this helps in your discernment process in trying to figure out what the Bible teaches on this matter. :tiphat:
T
Tomster
Guest
T
Tomster
Guest
Dan,
Check this out:
catholic.com/library/More_Stumpers_for_Jehovah_Wit.asp
Don’t forget to read the very first line of this tract and click on to another tract.
Hope this helps. :tiphat:
D
Dan_Parker
Guest
Tomster:
Dan,
That it is lawfull to pray FOR each other is admitted by all. St. Paul in his epistle to the Romans says: “Now I beseech you brethren, for the Lord’s Jesus Christ sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that you strive together with me in your prayers to God for me.” (Romans 15:30)
Dan:
I agree we can and should pray for each other. I am not quite sure why Catholics keep bringing this up in the context of whether Christians should pray to one another.
Tomster
Catholics believe that we can pray for each other while we are yet alive, and also that we can pray to the saints and that they are able to intercede in our behalf,
Dan:
The part that starts with and also is the part to which I object. It is almost as if your argument takes one truth and then trys to piggy back something else onto it in order to justify it. What does praying for each other have to do with praying to each other?
Tomster:
and assist us by their prayers before the throne of God. JW’s deny that the saints in heaven can intercede for us.
Dan:
Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that there is one intercessor and Hebrews describes this person and his attributes. Look at what is necessary to fulfill the role of intercessor and then show me a Saint that fits that description:
NJB Hebrews 7:23 Further, the former priests were many in number, because death put an end to each one of them; 24 but this one, because he remains for ever, has a perpetual priesthood. 25 It follows, then, that his power to save those who come to God through him is absolute, since he lives for ever to intercede for them. 26 Such is the high priest that met our need, holy, innocent and uncontaminated, set apart from sinners, and raised up above the heavens; 27 he has no need to offer sacrifices every day, as the high priests do, first for their own sins and only then for those of the people; this he did once and for all by offering himself. 28 The Law appoints high priests who are men subject to weakness; but the promise on oath, which came after the Law, appointed the Son who is made perfect for ever.
Note that there are two things that are necessary for the intercessor. To live forever. Granted Saints will also live forever, but even by your own admission they have not yet been resurrected. However the Son is raised up above the heavens. In addition he qualifies for this because he **once and for all offered himself **(as a sacrifice).
What Saint meets these requirements for being our intercessor?
Tomster:
Let us, again, see what the Bible says. I will take nothing for granted but will give, again, plenty of proof from the Word of God. St. John, in the book of Revelation describes the saints before the throne of God praying for their earthly brethren, “And when he had taken the Book, the four beasts, and the four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odors which are the prayers of the saints.” (Revelation 5:8)
Dan:
You have identified the existence of saints praying before the throne. They are praying to God (ie before the throne). What you have done is to show that we should pray to God. What you need is something that says to pray to Saints.
Tomster:
In the Book of Maccabees, we read how Judas Maccabees before he engaged in battle with Nicanor had a vision in which he saw Onias the high priest and Jeremiah the prophet: Onias prayed with outstrectched arms for the people of God and pointing to Jeremiah he said to Judas Maccabeus. “This is a lover his brethren, and the people of Israel. This is he that prayeth much for the people and for all the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God” (Mac. 15:14)
Dan:
Praying for someone is not the same as praying to them. This argument is bait and switch
Tomster:
Now Jeremiah and Onias were long since dead at that time that this vision took place, and yet they are represented as being interested in their brethren and praying for their success in battle.
Dan:
No problem there. That is fine. But where does one human pray TO another human? Is that not what you are trying to prove?
Tomster:
We read in the Gospel of St. Luke 16:27 how even Dives prayed that a messenger should be sent to his friends to warn them against hell, and if Dives who was in hell was so interested in the welfare of his friends, who can suppose that the saints cannot intercede on our behalf?
Dan:
Once again there is no example of someone praying to someone else here at all.
Tomster:
Again, if the devil goes about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8) is it possible that that the good angels can do nothing to protect us from peril? These passages from the Bible ought to satisfy any reasonable person that the saints in heaven can, and do intercede fro their brethren on earth.
Dan:
I have no problem with the concept of a heavenly being assisting human beings. Angels did the same thing. Do you pray to angels? I was not aware that Catholics prayed to angels. Once again, no smoking gun here.
Tomster:
That the belief of Catholics at present was the belief of the early Church can be fully borne out by extracts from the writings of the Early Church Fathers from the 2nd through the 5th centuries long before the JW’s ever came into existence.
Once again, I hope this helps in your discernment process in trying to figure out what the Bible teaches on this matter. :tiphat:
Dan:
I have no problem figuring out what the bible really teaches on the matter. You have produced no verse that even remotely infers that a Christian prayed to a Christian or a Jew prayed to a Jew, etc.
Praying for each other is not the same as praying to each other.
You never answered this question:
Do you pray to living Christians on the earth and if no, why not?
Dan,
That it is lawfull to pray FOR each other is admitted by all. St. Paul in his epistle to the Romans says: “Now I beseech you brethren, for the Lord’s Jesus Christ sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that you strive together with me in your prayers to God for me.” (Romans 15:30)
Dan:
I agree we can and should pray for each other. I am not quite sure why Catholics keep bringing this up in the context of whether Christians should pray to one another.
Tomster
Catholics believe that we can pray for each other while we are yet alive, and also that we can pray to the saints and that they are able to intercede in our behalf,
Dan:
The part that starts with and also is the part to which I object. It is almost as if your argument takes one truth and then trys to piggy back something else onto it in order to justify it. What does praying for each other have to do with praying to each other?
Tomster:
and assist us by their prayers before the throne of God. JW’s deny that the saints in heaven can intercede for us.
Dan:
Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that there is one intercessor and Hebrews describes this person and his attributes. Look at what is necessary to fulfill the role of intercessor and then show me a Saint that fits that description:
NJB Hebrews 7:23 Further, the former priests were many in number, because death put an end to each one of them; 24 but this one, because he remains for ever, has a perpetual priesthood. 25 It follows, then, that his power to save those who come to God through him is absolute, since he lives for ever to intercede for them. 26 Such is the high priest that met our need, holy, innocent and uncontaminated, set apart from sinners, and raised up above the heavens; 27 he has no need to offer sacrifices every day, as the high priests do, first for their own sins and only then for those of the people; this he did once and for all by offering himself. 28 The Law appoints high priests who are men subject to weakness; but the promise on oath, which came after the Law, appointed the Son who is made perfect for ever.
Note that there are two things that are necessary for the intercessor. To live forever. Granted Saints will also live forever, but even by your own admission they have not yet been resurrected. However the Son is raised up above the heavens. In addition he qualifies for this because he **once and for all offered himself **(as a sacrifice).
What Saint meets these requirements for being our intercessor?
Tomster:
Let us, again, see what the Bible says. I will take nothing for granted but will give, again, plenty of proof from the Word of God. St. John, in the book of Revelation describes the saints before the throne of God praying for their earthly brethren, “And when he had taken the Book, the four beasts, and the four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odors which are the prayers of the saints.” (Revelation 5:8)
Dan:
You have identified the existence of saints praying before the throne. They are praying to God (ie before the throne). What you have done is to show that we should pray to God. What you need is something that says to pray to Saints.
Tomster:
In the Book of Maccabees, we read how Judas Maccabees before he engaged in battle with Nicanor had a vision in which he saw Onias the high priest and Jeremiah the prophet: Onias prayed with outstrectched arms for the people of God and pointing to Jeremiah he said to Judas Maccabeus. “This is a lover his brethren, and the people of Israel. This is he that prayeth much for the people and for all the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God” (Mac. 15:14)
Dan:
Praying for someone is not the same as praying to them. This argument is bait and switch
Tomster:
Now Jeremiah and Onias were long since dead at that time that this vision took place, and yet they are represented as being interested in their brethren and praying for their success in battle.
Dan:
No problem there. That is fine. But where does one human pray TO another human? Is that not what you are trying to prove?
Tomster:
We read in the Gospel of St. Luke 16:27 how even Dives prayed that a messenger should be sent to his friends to warn them against hell, and if Dives who was in hell was so interested in the welfare of his friends, who can suppose that the saints cannot intercede on our behalf?
Dan:
Once again there is no example of someone praying to someone else here at all.
Tomster:
Again, if the devil goes about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8) is it possible that that the good angels can do nothing to protect us from peril? These passages from the Bible ought to satisfy any reasonable person that the saints in heaven can, and do intercede fro their brethren on earth.
Dan:
I have no problem with the concept of a heavenly being assisting human beings. Angels did the same thing. Do you pray to angels? I was not aware that Catholics prayed to angels. Once again, no smoking gun here.
Tomster:
That the belief of Catholics at present was the belief of the early Church can be fully borne out by extracts from the writings of the Early Church Fathers from the 2nd through the 5th centuries long before the JW’s ever came into existence.
Once again, I hope this helps in your discernment process in trying to figure out what the Bible teaches on this matter. :tiphat:
Dan:
I have no problem figuring out what the bible really teaches on the matter. You have produced no verse that even remotely infers that a Christian prayed to a Christian or a Jew prayed to a Jew, etc.
Praying for each other is not the same as praying to each other.
You never answered this question:
Do you pray to living Christians on the earth and if no, why not?
D
Dan_Parker
Guest
Of course it is. I quoted Jesus in the bible. I didn’t expect you to accept that premise
Do you pray to living Christians on the earth and if no, why not?
T
Tomster
Guest
The question has been answered. And the Our Father is one of the first prayers I offer to God in the morning. Puhleese!Of course it is. I quoted Jesus in the bible. I didn’t expect you to accept that premise
Do you pray to living Christians on the earth and if no, why not?
Did you check out the links? Post # 153 :hammering:
It isn’t looking very good for you at this point, Dan.
D
Dan_Parker
Guest
I have not seen it. Can you answer it here?
Do you pray to living Christians on the earth and if no, why not?
S
St_Aloysius_1
Guest
Catholics do not pray to other Christians. The saints we pray to are heavenly souls who have achieved salvation and are in heaven with Christ. That puts them in a far different place than those of here.
Remember, a prayer is a request. It is not worship. We are asking something of the saints, mainly, to pray for us to God, to Whom they are so close. We are forbidden to worship all, but God. We are not forbidden to pary.
Remember, a prayer is a request. It is not worship. We are asking something of the saints, mainly, to pray for us to God, to Whom they are so close. We are forbidden to worship all, but God. We are not forbidden to pary.
D
Dan_Parker
Guest
Thank you for that explanation. It is interesting that Evangelical Trinitarians attempt to prove we should worship Jesus because they interpret a few verses in the bible as prayers to Jesus. Would **all **Catholics agree that prayer is not worship?
D
distracted
Guest
- Status