Catholic Belief Regarding the Judgement of a Jew

[VivaCristoRey27]

God Bless

I should have been more clear. This discussion concerns the Limbo of the Fathers, not the Limbo of the Infants.

Limbo of the Fathers (that the just before Christ did not go to Heaven but to sheol or hades, Abraham’s Bosom or Paradise) is Catholic dogma.

Limbo of the Infants (that those who die with Original Sin on their souls but without having committed a sin, such as unbaptized children) is not Catholic dogma but simply a perennial and well-established teaching. It has recently become unfashionable to express a belief in the Limbo of the Infants but it is still the teaching of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church and is eminently reasonable.

So thus, you can be Catholic and deny the existence of the Limbo of the Infants but you cannot be Catholic and deny the existence of the Limbo of the Fathers. It is Catholic dogma and it is clearly discussed in Scripture.

There are five states in the afterlife:
Heaven
Purgatory
Limbo of the Fathers
Limbo of the Infants
Hell of the Damned

When Christ “descended into Hell”, as the Apostles’ Creed states, He descended to the Limbo of the Fathers to “preach to the spirits that were in prison”, as St. Peter states. Christ made it clear that Heaven was not opened until His Ascension. Thus, Moses and Elijah were not in Heaven before the Ascension.

Christ also did not have a glorified body until after the Resurrection. Yet He also shone in glory. Thus this verse does not disprove the dogma of the Limbo of the Fathers.

I am curious though, are you Roman Catholic or “Anglo-Catholic” or something, because you are quoting from a Protestant Bible (KJV) and saying that Church teaching isn’t in line with Scripture.

 

[Insight]

I should have been more clear. This discussion concerns the Limbo of the Fathers, not the Limbo of the Infants.

I’m not so sure how stable of an idea it is anyhow, in 2005 the Vatican was considering disposing the Limbo concept:

“This month, 30 top theologians from around the world met at the Vatican to discuss, among other quandaries, the problem of what happens to babies who die without baptism. They do not like the word for it, but what they were really doing, as theological advisers to Pope Benedict XVI, was finally disposing of limbo - a concept that was never official church doctrine but has been an enduring medieval theory of a blissful state among the departed, somehow different from both heaven and hell.”

nytimes.com/2005/12/27/international/europe/27cnd-limbo.html

God Bless

 

[Insight]

I am curious though, are you Roman Catholic or “Anglo-Catholic” or something, because you are quoting from a Protestant Bible (KJV) and saying that Church teaching isn’t in line with Scripture.

Roman Catholic and I’m very proud of my daughter who was selected to meet the Pope out of hundreds of students to represent the Diocese of Rockville Center Catholic School System in 2008. I am also privileged that my Dad (now retired) who was in upper management of JFK Airport had the opportunity to speak with Pope Benedict XVI in Hangar 19, in His native tongue; German. I’m also very proud of my son who served at St. Patrick’s Cathedral Mass in Manhattan on June 9th, 2011 under the Rector Monsignor Robert T. Ritchie. My daughter was also selected as one of the students to represent the Diocese for World Youth Day in Spain this August, and I’m going with her.

God Bless

 

[VivaCristoRey27]

I’m not so sure how stable of an idea it is anyhow, in 2005 the Vatican was considering disposing the Limbo concept:

“This month, 30 top theologians from around the world met at the Vatican to discuss, among other quandaries, the problem of what happens to babies who die without baptism. They do not like the word for it, but what they were really doing, as theological advisers to Pope Benedict XVI, was finally disposing of limbo - a concept that was never official church doctrine but has been an enduring medieval theory of a blissful state among the departed, somehow different from both heaven and hell.”

nytimes.com/2005/12/27/international/europe/27cnd-limbo.html

God Bless

That regards the Limbo of the Infants, not the Limbo of the Fathers – two different doctrines. The Limbo of the Fathers is dogma, the Limbo of the Infants is not. It is true that some theologians did agree that it is orthodox to deny the Limbo of the Infants and to believe that unbaptized infants are taken to Heaven.

But that is a different topic for a different thread. The issue here regards the Limbo of the Fathers, which is dogma.

 

[VivaCristoRey27]

Roman Catholic and I’m very proud of my daughter who was selected to meet the Pope out of hundreds of students to represent the Diocese of Rockville Center Catholic School System in 2008. I am also privileged that my Dad (now retired) who was in upper management of JFK Airport had the opportunity to speak with Pope Benedict XVI in Hangar 19, in His native tongue; German. I’m also very proud of my son who served at St. Patrick’s Cathedral Mass in Manhattan on June 9th, 2011 under the Rector Monsignor Robert T. Ritchie. My daughter was also selected as one of the students to represent the Diocese for World Youth Day in Spain this August, and I’m going with her.

God Bless

Not that there are any major differences but why do you utilize a Protestant Bible then?

 

[Kaninchen]

I never heard you say that before, but I like it.

Your friend
Sufjon

It’s usually in the context of the necessity of being ‘saved’ (Question: from what? )

 

[Insight]

Not that there are any major differences but why do you utilize a Protestant Bible then?

No particular reason, when I look up Bible verses, one of the most convenient websites is:

BlueLetterBible.org

It’s just that the default is the KJV, but on the plus side, it allows the comparing of 16 different Bible versions with one click.

God Bless

 

[Insight]

It’s usually in the context of the necessity of being ‘saved’ (Question: from what? )

I went through the Catholic education system. At that time the teachers were nearly all Nuns. The ones who proclaimed that only Catholics can go to heaven always seemed angry and intolerant. I had my knuckles whacked plenty of times with a wood ruler for writing lefty.

We had one Nun who was really wonderful that everyone liked. She used to tell us this joke about a Jewish woman going to Heaven. St. Peter led her down a long hallway and was telling her about the different sections. He pointed out the section for the Baptists, they walked past another door to the Lutherans, past the door to the Methodists and then He stopped. He whispered: “This is the door to the Catholics. When you go passed this door you have to be very quiet”. The Jewish woman inquired: “Why do we have to be so quiet?” He replied: “Because they think they are the only ones up here”.

G-d Bless

 

[VivaCristoRey27]

I went through the Catholic education system. At that time the teachers were nearly all Nuns. The ones who proclaimed that only Catholics can go to heaven always seemed angry and intolerant. I had my knuckles whacked plenty of times with a wood ruler for writing lefty.

We had one Nun who was really wonderful that everyone liked. She used to tell us this joke about a Jewish woman going to Heaven. St. Peter led her down a long hallway and was telling her about the different sections. He pointed out the section for the Baptists, they walked past another door to the Lutherans, past the door to the Methodists and then He stopped. He whispered: “This is the door to the Catholics. When you go passed this door you have to be very quiet”. The Jewish woman inquired: “Why do we have to be so quiet?” He replied: “Because they think they are the only ones up here”.

G-d Bless

While the nuns who proclaimed the Catholic teaching might have seemed “angry and intolerant” and the one who proclaimed religious indifference seemed “really wonderful” and “everyone liked her”, these things do not really bear on the truth of the matter.

The truth of the matter is that there are no Baptists or Lutherans or Methodists or Jews (or Mormons or Muslims or Hare Krishnas) in Heaven. There are only Catholics.

Why is this? Well, what is the Catholic Faith? It is the true faith, taught by Christ. Other religions and Christian denominations are called false religions because they diverge from the truth. If Heaven is Heaven and those there see God, who is Truth Itself, how can they believe lies?

Now, someone who lives as a Jew or a Presbyterian all his life might repent and convert on his deathbed, God works miracles like that. But they don’t go to Heaven thinking that Jesus is not the Messiah or that the pope is the antichrist or go looking around Heaven for Lord Krishna or whatever. There are indeed only Catholics in Heaven for the bare fact that only the Catholic Faith is true and there can be no falsehood, confusion or deception in Heaven, or else Heaven is not Heaven and God is not God.

Christ died for the Catholic Church, it is the only ark of salvation.
Council of Florence:

It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

 

[jediliz]

I personally believe that Anne Frank, the young Jewish woman who wrote a diary while in hiding and then was found (and no one will probably know WHO gave them away), and sent to a concentration camp, is in Heaven. She was a martyr for God.

We have to remember that the Jews were the first to hear God’s word.

 

[Insight]

I personally believe that Anne Frank, the young Jewish woman who wrote a diary while in hiding and then was found (and no one will probably know WHO gave them away), and sent to a concentration camp, is in Heaven. She was a martyr for God.

We have to remember that the Jews were the first to hear God’s word.

Amen.

 

[Kaninchen]

I went through the Catholic education system. At that time the teachers were nearly all Nuns. The ones who proclaimed that only Catholics can go to heaven always seemed angry and intolerant. I had my knuckles whacked plenty of times with a wood ruler for writing lefty.

We had one Nun who was really wonderful that everyone liked. She used to tell us this joke about a Jewish woman going to Heaven. St. Peter led her down a long hallway and was telling her about the different sections. He pointed out the section for the Baptists, they walked past another door to the Lutherans, past the door to the Methodists and then He stopped. He whispered: “This is the door to the Catholics. When you go passed this door you have to be very quiet”. The Jewish woman inquired: “Why do we have to be so quiet?” He replied: “Because they think they are the only ones up here”.

G-d Bless

We tend to the idea that non-Jews have an easier time (in terms of the World To Come) than Jews because less is expected.

 

[meltzerboy]

While the nuns who proclaimed the Catholic teaching might have seemed “angry and intolerant” and the one who proclaimed religious indifference seemed “really wonderful” and “everyone liked her”, these things do not really bear on the truth of the matter.

The truth of the matter is that there are no Baptists or Lutherans or Methodists or Jews (or Mormons or Muslims or Hare Krishnas) in Heaven. There are only Catholics.

Why is this? Well, what is the Catholic Faith? It is the true faith, taught by Christ. Other religions and Christian denominations are called false religions because they diverge from the truth. If Heaven is Heaven and those there see God, who is Truth Itself, how can they believe lies?

Now, someone who lives as a Jew or a Presbyterian all his life might repent and convert on his deathbed, God works miracles like that. But they don’t go to Heaven thinking that Jesus is not the Messiah or that the pope is the antichrist or go looking around Heaven for Lord Krishna or whatever. There are indeed only Catholics in Heaven for the bare fact that only the Catholic Faith is true and there can be no falsehood, confusion or deception in Heaven, or else Heaven is not Heaven and God is not God.

Christ died for the Catholic Church, it is the only ark of salvation.

I can understand why you might think there are no Jews, Muslims, Mormons, or Hindus in heaven (even though I emphatically disagree), since none of these groups believe in the divinity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. But now you are also denying Protestants: Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, etc. who do believe in the Trinity? I’m not Catholic but I’m almost certain this notion is against Church teaching.

 

[meltzerboy]

We tend to the idea that non-Jews have an easier time (in terms of the World To Come) than Jews because less is expected.

And that’s why I’m in the worst possible situation: denied salvation by many Christians, particularly certain Protestant denominations, as well as some Catholics. And admonished as a heretic, if not exactly denied salvation, by a substantial number of Orthodox Jews. What’s a Reform Jew to do?

 

[Kaninchen]

And that’s why I’m in the worst possible situation: denied salvation by many Christians, particularly certain Protestant denominations, as well as some Catholics. And admonished as a heretic, if not exactly denied salvation, by a substantial number of Orthodox Jews. What’s a Reform Jew to do?

I wasn’t aware that HaShem franchised out decision making.

As to ‘salvation’, salvation from what, exactly?

 

[meltzerboy]

I wasn’t aware that HaShem franchised out decision making.

As to ‘salvation’, salvation from what, exactly?

My statement was half tongue-in-cheek. You’re assuredly correct; only HaShem decides, not us. And, as you know, we’re not even supposed to speculate.

Right again. For Judaism, entrance to heaven is more appropriate than salvation.

 

[Hail_Linus]

What does the Catholic Church believe about the Judgement of an observant Jew? Does a Jew have to believe that Jesus was the Messiah to enter heaven?

• The Church is the ordinary way to salvation. It does not exclude extraordinary ways which would permit those outside the Church to be saved.
• A person who is outside the Church due to Invincible Ignorance is held to a lower standard than Catholics. This can be inferred from Matthew 12:31-32 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." If the Holy Spirit guides a person to the Church and they reject it then they will have a problem.
• It may be that it is more difficult for a Catholic to be saved. We are now in the position the Jews of the Old Testament were in. This can be inferred from Luke 12:48 “But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.” Look around at all of the confirmed Catholics constantly rejecting the truth. I tell you a devout Jew may in fact have an easier time with Salvation than many Bishops. For Bishops have been given much and much is expected and yet it appears many have not lived up to this expectation.

God decides these matters. As Eli said in 1 Samuel 3:18, “He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes.” God will indeed do what is good in his eyes, whatever that may be. We should pray that God have mercy on us and the whole world.

This question also reminds me of John 21 where Peter asks what is going to happen to John. In the present case we are asking what will happen to devout Jews. Similarly to John 21, I believe Jesus would probably say “If I will that persons outside the Church are saved, what is that to you? You are to follow Me.” In other words, be good Catholics, that is our responsibility.

 

[Sufjon]

As to ‘salvation’, salvation from what, exactly?

From the invented illness for which only the inventors have the cure. Hey - I learned that from you.

Yes, I’m gonna borrow that one all the time, and you can consider it a compliment!

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Hail_Linus]

As to ‘salvation’, salvation from what, exactly?

Sometimes I wish I had invincible ignorance too.

P.S.-Don’t get upset, I am just taking a friendly light jab just like you.

 

[Kaninchen]

Sometimes I wish I had invincible ignorance too.

P.S.-Don’t get upset, I am just taking a friendly light jab just like you.

I’m not upset, merely chatting about people trying to sell what we don’t need - and neither do they.