Catholic Belief Regarding the Judgement of a Jew

[meltzerboy]

You are welcome. It is important to me to be as rational as possible in these sorts of discussions. The Catholic Faith indeed is the only truly reasonable religion, I hope to give evidence of that.

The Church denies no one access to Heaven, people either gain or reject Heaven based on their actions. It is the purpose of the Church to get people to Heaven, not to keep them out. Even God does not deny people access to Heaven, people deny themselves access to Heaven by their actions or inactions. Nothing unholy can be in the full, unveiled Presence of God who is Holy, it is torture. That is why the sinner flies from Judgment to Hell or Purgatory. An eternity is Hell is less painful for a soul in the state of mortal sin than a single second in the Presence of God.

So, no one is being denied access to Heaven. People either accept or reject God.

One doesn’t have to be a brilliant theologian like St. Thomas Aquinas to acquire Heaven, no. You don’t have to know all the doctrines of the Church and it is impossible to practice all the different devotions, that is why you find a devotion and stick with it.

But you cannot reject a dogma of the Church and be saved. That is called “heresy” and it is a mortal sin.

This is indeed the Church teaching, as it has been for 2000 years.

A couple of other points. I didn’t say one must KNOW all the doctrines, practices, and customs of the Church; I said one does not have to BELIEVE in all the doctrines, practices, and customs of the Church. In other words, according to what one knows, one does not have to believe everything, especially regarding practices and customs. Lack of belief in these instances may amount to venial–not mortal–sins, or perhaps no sin at all. Even with respect to certain doctrines, one may have occasional internal doubts but follow the doctrines anyway. I think that is all which is needed. Dogma is another story: my understanding is one must firmly and sincerely believe the essential tenets of the religion, rather than “sort of” believing them. Even here, though, Catholics–as people of other faiths–may have their periods or moments of doubt. In these instances, don’t you think G-d gives some “credit” for people’s intentions and efforts toward improvement, as well as their actual performance? Not to mention the fact that Catholicism has the beautiful Sacrament of Confession, so that people can strive to become more holy and god-like, and not be lost in mortal sin.

You also state that an eternity in Hell is less painful for someone in a state of mortal sin than a single instant in the Presence of G-d would be for that person. Does this suggest that G-d is actually being more MERCIFUL by enabling a sinner to choose Hell rather than having them spend an eternity in His presence, which for such a person would be torture? This is interesting from a theological perspective. I wonder, however, whether it conforms to Church doctrine.

 

[valentino]

What does the Catholic Church believe about the Judgement of an observant Jew? Does a Jew have to believe that Jesus was the Messiah to enter heaven?

I believe the Church believes that all Jews will become saved at the end of the world and will except Jesus.I believe a Jew will be tried like anybody else.No one knows how God will judge anybody because only God knows a man’s heart.But God wishes that everyone knows Christ and enters the CC.When you say observant I don’t know what that entails.if he commits mortal sin he faces death and hell like anyone else.Do observant Jews believe Abortion is ok?Abortion is the murder of a life that God created.Its a mortal sin to have an abortion,preform an abortion,or advise someone to have an abortion.

 

[meltzerboy]

I believe the Church believes that all Jews will become saved at the end of the world and will except Jesus.I believe a Jew will be tried like anybody else.No one knows how God will judge anybody because only God knows a man’s heart.But God wishes that everyone knows Christ and enters the CC.When you say observant I don’t know what that entails.if he commits mortal sin he faces death and hell like anyone else.Do observant Jews believe Abortion is ok?Abortion is the murder of a life that God created.Its a mortal sin to have an abortion,preform an abortion,or advise someone to have an abortion.

FYI, valentino, Torah (Orthodox) Jews believe that abortion is required (not merely permitted) in one specific case: when the mother would die without aborting the unborn child. Otherwise abortion is not OK. (There are also leniencies for incest and rape: some Torah Jews say yes; others say no in these cases.) Conservative and Reform Jews have different ideas concerning abortion. But the word “observant” itself is a tricky one, for one can be an observant Conservative Jew or an observant Reform Jew, as well as an observant Orthodox (Torah) Jew. For some of the latter, however, not only are the former non-observant, but they are also heretics.

 

[VivaCristoRey27]

A couple of other points. I didn’t say one must KNOW all the doctrines, practices, and customs of the Church; I said one does not have to BELIEVE in all the doctrines, practices, and customs of the Church. In other words, according to what one knows, one does not have to believe everything, especially regarding practices and customs. Lack of belief in these instances may amount to venial–not mortal–sins, or perhaps no sin at all.

What does it mean to lack a belief in a practice or custom?

Even with respect to certain doctrines, one may have occasional internal doubts but follow the doctrines anyway. I think that is all which is needed. Dogma is another story: my understanding is one must firmly and sincerely believe the essential tenets of the religion, rather than “sort of” believing them. Even here, though, Catholics–as people of other faiths–may have their periods or moments of doubt. In these instances, don’t you think G-d gives some “credit” for people’s intentions and efforts toward improvement, as well as their actual performance? Not to mention the fact that Catholicism has the beautiful Sacrament of Confession, so that people can strive to become more holy and god-like, and not be lost in mortal sin.

Yes, but if we are discussing the salvation of non-Catholics, they do not have benefit of the Sacraments, apart from baptism and marriage. If they commit a mortal sin (as essentially everyone over the age of reason has), there is no definitive way to be forgiven as with the Sacrament of Confession. It essentially requires a miracle of grace in order to have perfect contrition for sins at the moment of death, especially when one’s life has not been a preparation for death, or the grace to have a priest available and a contrite spirit.

You also state that an eternity in Hell is less painful for someone in a state of mortal sin than a single instant in the Presence of G-d would be for that person. Does this suggest that G-d is actually being more MERCIFUL by enabling a sinner to choose Hell rather than having them spend an eternity in His presence, which for such a person would be torture? This is interesting from a theological perspective. I wonder, however, whether it conforms to Church doctrine.

It is a common Western teaching (I believe the common Eastern teaching is that Hell is the same “place” as Heaven – that is, being in God’s Presence which is glory to the saints and torment for the reprobate).

God is present everywhere, including Hell, as the Psalmist says:
Ps 138:7-8:

Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy face? If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I descend into hell, thou art present.

However, He has the ability to veil His glory, just as He does on earth (letting through a single ray was dramatic enough to make Moses’ face glow after coming down from the mountain and Christ shining in glory at the Transfiguration). So God is present in hell, but not sensibly present to the damned. It is a sort of mercy. God gives people what they want – those who want Him to the exclusion of all created goods will find Him, those who reject God in favor of some created good will be abandoned by Him in Hell. God holds everything in existence, even those in Hell for it is better to exist than to not exist, even if it is existence in Hell.

 

[meltzerboy]

What does it mean to lack a belief in a practice or custom?

Yes, but if we are discussing the salvation of non-Catholics, they do not have benefit of the Sacraments, apart from baptism and marriage. If they commit a mortal sin (as essentially everyone over the age of reason has), there is no definitive way to be forgiven as with the Sacrament of Confession. It essentially requires a miracle of grace in order to have perfect contrition for sins at the moment of death, especially when one’s life has not been a preparation for death, or the grace to have a priest available and a contrite spirit.

It is a common Western teaching (I believe the common Eastern teaching is that Hell is the same “place” as Heaven – that is, being in God’s Presence which is glory to the saints and torment for the reprobate).

God is present everywhere, including Hell, as the Psalmist says:

However, He has the ability to veil His glory, just as He does on earth (letting through a single ray was dramatic enough to make Moses’ face glow after coming down from the mountain and Christ shining in glory at the Transfiguration). So God is present in hell, but not sensibly present to the damned. It is a sort of mercy. God gives people what they want – those who want Him to the exclusion of all created goods will find Him, those who reject God in favor of some created good will be abandoned by Him in Hell. God holds everything in existence, even those in Hell for it is better to exist than to not exist, even if it is existence in Hell.

Lack of belief in a practice or custom means willfully not participating in it because one does not think it is of any significant or inherent value. I’m sure you’re aware there is a hierarchy of beliefs in Catholicism, and that dogma is the most essential, while practice and custom are least essential.

Is it better to exist in Hell than to cease to exist? I wonder which state (or non-state) is more merciful. I’m trying to pin you down regarding whether G-d is in fact being merciful by giving sinners what they want, since (as you said) allowing them to go to Heaven for eternity–or even for an instant–would be painful for them. Or is G-d indeed meting out justice by punishing sinners for the choice they made in life? Possibly both justice and mercy for sinners, as well as for those absolved of their sins? Is there official Catholic teaching on this matter?

 

[Insight]

Is it better to exist in Hell than to cease to exist? I wonder which state (or non-state) is more merciful.

It is better to have never existed: “For the Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born" (Mark 14:21).

G-d Bless

 

[LOCO]

That is not exactly what he wrote.

To wit,

The vast majority of Jews cannot see the Truth because the veil is over their hearts.

Thus the Holy Father believes (referring to past writers) that it is essentially a waste of time trying to convert Jews in large numbers (individual conversions still occur, of course) and indeed past attempts have been terribly unsuccessful. After the debacle with the conversos of Spain, it has seemed that mass conversions of the Jews really is indeed not going to happen until the return of Henoch and Elias – the two witnesses spoke of in the Book of the Apocalypse.

Hi Viva,

Here is what he wrote

“Catholics should not seek the incorporation of the Jewish people into the Church.”

“Israel is in the hands of God, who will save it ‘as a whole’ at the proper time, when the number of Gentiles is full,” the pope writes. He says that Christians should “wait for the time fixed for this by God” rather than attempting to convert the Jewish people.

While the Pope affirms that salvation only comes through Jesus Christ, he argues that the mission of the Church is primarily to the Gentiles, and cites the belief of St. Bernard that God will bring Jews into the fold at a time “that cannot be anticipated.”

The Pope acknowledges that efforts by Christians to convert Jews have caused severe problems over the centuries. Although he does not propose to place limits on evangelization, or discourage individual conversions, he does say that Christians should not target Jews specifically for conversion.
"

 

[Insight]

“Catholics should not seek the incorporation of the Jewish people into the Church.”

“Israel is in the hands of God, who will save it ‘as a whole’ at the proper time, when the number of Gentiles is full,” the pope writes. He says that Christians should “wait for the time fixed for this by God” rather than attempting to convert the Jewish people.

While the Pope affirms that salvation only comes through Jesus Christ, he argues that the mission of the Church is primarily to the Gentiles, and cites the belief of St. Bernard that God will bring Jews into the fold at a time “that cannot be anticipated.”

The Pope acknowledges that efforts by Christians to convert Jews have caused severe problems over the centuries. Although he does not propose to place limits on evangelization, or discourage individual conversions, he does say that Christians should not target Jews specifically for conversion."

I guess that kind of sums up this thread. “The Code of Canon Law - Book II, Part II, Section I, Chapter I, Article I - gives the Pope full and supreme power over all levels of the Church and free use to exercise this power. Canon law clearly requires that this Papal order be embraced with unconditional acceptance and submission.

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P16.HTM

First Vatican Council, Session IV, Chp. IV, p.IX: “So, then, if anyone says that the Roman Pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the Church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the Churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful: let him be anathema.”

dailycatholic.org/history/20ecume3.htm

Catechism of the Catholic Church, 883 - “The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter’s successor, as its head.”

carm.org/ccc-862-883-896-939

God Bless

 

[valentino]

MetzerBoY: On the case that a mother would die if an abortion were not preformed IMO I believe the church’s stance is that it can’t be proved that a woman would die if she did not have an abortion.Are you sure that this kind of case has ever happened?Other wise concerning rape or incest it is still morally wrong to have an abortion.Even though those are terrible crimes the human person in the womb still has the right to be born.Those offenders must be punished if caught.Also society or the CC must be allowed to help thatt person who has to carry that fetus to term and also help in adoption if she is unable or doesn’t want to care for the baby.The CC has orgs.which help the mother and child until they can live on their own.

 

[valentino]

VistacristoRey27: there is the upper part of Hell to which CHrist descended.Its not the part where the damned are.referring to another of your posts “it better that they never existed”.You do agree that the souls in hell wish they were never created,right?

 

[fms]

It’s usually in the context of the necessity of being ‘saved’ (Question: from what? )

Aloha from Hawaii Kaninchen, it has been a while.

Question: There are numerous references in the Hebrew Bible about salvation. How do you understand these?

For example:

Ps27:1 Yahweh is my light and my salvation, whom need I fear?

 

[Kaninchen]

Aloha from Hawaii Kaninchen, it has been a while.

Question: There are numerous references in the Hebrew Bible about salvation. How do you understand these?

For example:

Ps27:1 Yahweh is my light and my salvation, whom need I fear?

From very real and immediate things.

 

[valentino]

FYI, valentino, Torah (Orthodox) Jews believe that abortion is required (not merely permitted) in one specific case: when the mother would die without aborting the unborn child. Otherwise abortion is not OK. (There are also leniencies for incest and rape: some Torah Jews say yes; others say no in these cases.) Conservative and Reform Jews have different ideas concerning abortion. But the word “observant” itself is a tricky one, for one can be an observant Conservative Jew or an observant Reform Jew, as well as an observant Orthodox (Torah) Jew. For some of the latter, however, not only are the former non-observant, but they are also heretics.

thanks.Not that this of great concern to me but why is there leniencies for rape.Now incest may be looked at a little different considering the fact that a child may be likely to be deformed or retarded or something.But that is for another discussion.

 

[fms]

From very real and immediate things.

Do you consider sin real and immediate?

 

[Kaninchen]

Do you consider sin real and immediate?

Rather a ‘who does what to whom?’ question.

 

[meltzerboy]

thanks.Not that this of great concern to me but why is there leniencies for rape.Now incest may be looked at a little different considering the fact that a child may be likely to be deformed or retarded or something.But that is for another discussion.

The leniency for rape concerns the physical and psychological health of the mother (which are intertwined), which may be endangered by carrying the unborn child to term and afterwards. Many Torah Jews take this into account; some may not.

 

[fms]

Rather a ‘who does what to whom?’ question.

Like:

Ex23:33: They must not live in your country or they will make you sin against me; you would come to worship their gods, and that would be a snare for you indeed!

 

[Kaninchen]

Like:

No, more like: ‘a bunch of people who are murderous - sin - are at the door, save me!’

 

[fms]

No, more like: ‘a bunch of people who are murderous - sin - are at the door, save me!’

You are skirting the question…

 

[Kaninchen]

You are skirting the question…

Not in the slightest.