Catholic Bishops against Arizona legislation

[Malkin71]

Huh? This makes no sense.

All those crimes are commited by legals and citizens as well.

How many Bishops encourage Latin or the EF? How many Bishops have Masses in Spanish?

How many crimes have been created by repeat offenders? They get deported and come back and still commit crimes?

 

[Malkin71]

That’s a little rash, no?

The refusal of the government paying the full share of Medicare and Medicaid is, I would argue, more serious than 10 million illegal immigrants.

Just a thought.

Best,
fish90

What is the Religion of the Illegals? The percentage is Roman Catholic. The problem is that they fall away from the Church and go to another denomanition. There was a report on this recently.

 

[Malkin71]

This law seems to be on the harsh side. I am a very Conservative person, politically and personally, but the answer to the problem is not a Salem Witch hunt. This law may break apart families, set neighbors against eachother, and pit the police against anyone of brown color. I know we need an immigration reform of some type, but going out after all the Hispanics is not the proper way of doing so. Sanctions need to be placed on bussiness that hire the illegal immigrants, so that there will be no reason for the illegals to come over in the first place. That is where we should begin to enact reform, not on the people. The country must treat the problem, business taking advantage of immigrants, and not the symptom, the immigrants themselves. Without treating the problem, any law passed to combat illegal immigration is akin to a bandage placed on a large wound. It may stop the bleeding for awhile, but it can not close the wound itself. That is when the stitches must be used to close the wound. We just need to remember that we are Christians first, and U.S. citizens secondly. For what we do to the least of our neighbors, we do to Christ.

Not all hispanics are illegals. How many people are waiting and are are doing what is right and obeying the laws and fill out the forms. We are told to obey the laws by Our Lord as well. What is wrong by doing it right. There are alot of immigrents who came here LEAGALY and do not like the ILLEGALS and what they do.

 

[Malkin71]

You seem to be suffereing from the most common delusion among American Catholics.
You are suggesting that the bishops should act like elected representatives.

Elected politicians are to speak FOR their constituents.
They are to represent citizens.

BISHOPS are to speak TO those under their authority.
BISHOPS are to teach the teachings of the Church.

Apples.
Oranges.

How many Bishops stray from Church teachings?

Mother Angelicia and Cardnial Mahoney come to mind?

 

[catharina]

What is the Religion of the Illegals? The percentage is Roman Catholic. The problem is that they fall away from the Church and go to another denomanition. There was a report on this recently.

Do you consider this post of yours to hold any credibility?
"There was a report on this recently.

HUH?

 

[catharina]

How many Bishops stray from Church teachings?

Mother Angelicia and Cardnial Mahoney come to mind?

Cardinal Mahony is a Bishop.
He strays from Church Teaching, according to you.
Mother Angelica is a BISHOP??? Only according to you!

Continue with your fanciful ranting.
It holds no interest for me … it holds no logic, no reasoning, no TRUTH.

 

[Jermosh]

Not all hispanics are illegals. How many people are waiting and are are doing what is right and obeying the laws and fill out the forms. We are told to obey the laws by Our Lord as well. What is wrong by doing it right. There are alot of immigrents who came here LEAGALY and do not like the ILLEGALS and what they do.

This is a great point to why this law is horrid. Hispanics who have been part of the Arizona land who have families linking back before the US territory, are now subject to show there ID at the whim of a police officer. That’s from Nazism 101.

 

[canadianguy1143]

Brief quote re Pope John Paul II:

74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:f6t5uafrZhcJ:www.catholicculture.org/commentary/articles.cfm%3Fid%3D121+threshhold+of+hope,+buddhist+practices,+catholic+teachings&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Pope urges clemency for illegal immigrants
AP Online | October 9, 1998 | Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. This material is published under license from the Associated Press. All inquiries regarding rights should be directed to the Associated Press. (Hide copyright information) Copyright

AP Online
10-09-1998
VATICAN CITY (AP) _
**Pope John Paul II on Friday urged a world amnesty for illegal immigrants in the year 2000, denouncing what he said was growing xenophobia.

Almost everywhere today there is a tendency to close the frontiers and return to rigorous controls,'' he told participants at a world congress on the issue at the Vatican. Migration is spoken of more than before and always in more alarmist tones.’’ **

There is nothing new about Bishops pleading for mercy for illegal immigrants.
There is nothing new about some folks **hating **that action by Bishops.

Judge not less ye be judged.

The above link is curious considering what the Catechism of the CATHOLIC CHURCH says:

2241 The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.

**Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens. **

Also I found this in the Catechism as well:

2442 It is not the role of the Pastors of the Church to intervene directly in the political structuring and organization of social life. This task is part of the vocation of the lay faithful, acting on their own initiative with their fellow citizens. Social action can assume various concrete forms. It should always have the common good in view and be in conformity with the message of the Gospel and the teaching of the Church. It is the role of the laity “to animate temporal realities with Christian commitment, by which they show that they are witnesses and agents of peace and justice.”

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Lots of focus here on illegal Hispanics. And obviously because it constitutes the greatest number of illegals. But you’d be surprised how many illegal Irish there are in Boston, New York, Chicago, San Francisco, and LA. Somehow I doubt they’re going to be asked for their paperwork…

 

[catharina]

Lots of focus here on illegal Hispanics. And obviously because it constitutes the greatest number of illegals. But you’d be surprised how many illegal Irish there are in Boston, New York, Chicago, San Francisco, and LA. Somehow I doubt they’re going to be asked for their paperwork…

Excellent point.
Even in Arizona they would not be asked for documents.
Yet the law in Arizona is not racial profiling?

Sure.

 

[catharina]

Judge not less ye be judged.

The above link is curious considering what the Catechism of the CATHOLIC CHURCH says:

2241 The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.

**Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens. **

**You should have continued from here:

2242 The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s."48 “We must obey God rather than men”:49

When citizens are under the oppression of a public authority which oversteps its competence, they should still not refuse to give or to do what is objectively demanded of them by the common good; but it is legitimate for them to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens against the abuse of this authority within the limits of the natural law and the Law of the Gospel.50 **

2243 Armed resistance to oppression by political authority is not legitimate, unless all the following conditions are met: 1) there is certain, grave, and prolonged violation of fundamental rights; 2) all other means of redress have been exhausted; 3) such resistance will not provoke worse disorders; 4) there is well-founded hope of success; and 5) it is impossible reasonably to foresee any better solution.

The political community and the Church

2244 Every institution is inspired, at least implicitly, by a vision of man and his destiny, from which it derives the point of reference for its judgment, its hierarchy of values, its line of conduct. Most societies have formed their institutions in the recognition of a certain preeminence of man over things. Only the divinely revealed religion has clearly recognized man’s origin and destiny in God, the Creator and Redeemer. The Church invites political authorities to measure their judgments and decisions against this inspired truth about God and man:

Societies not recognizing this vision or rejecting it in the name of their independence from God are brought to seek their criteria and goal in themselves or to borrow them from some ideology. Since they do not admit that one can defend an objective criterion of good and evil, they arrogate to themselves an explicit or implicit totalitarian power over man and his destiny, as history shows.51

2245 The Church, because of her commission and competence, is not to be confused in any way with the political community. She is both the sign and the safeguard of the transcendent character of the human person. "The Church respects and encourages the political freedom and responsibility of the citizen."52

2246 It is a part of the Church’s mission "to pass moral judgments even in matters related to politics, whenever the fundamental rights of man or the salvation of souls requires it. The means, the only means, she may use are those which are in accord with the Gospel and the welfare of all men according to the diversity of times and circumstances."53

Why did you skip all of the above as you ‘built your case’

Also I found this in the Catechism as well:

2442 It is not the role of the Pastors of the Church to intervene directly in the political structuring and organization of social life. This task is part of the vocation of the lay faithful, acting on their own initiative with their fellow citizens. Social action can assume various concrete forms. It should always have the common good in view and be in conformity with the message of the Gospel and the teaching of the Church. It is the role of the laity “to animate temporal realities with Christian commitment, by which they show that they are witnesses and agents of peace and justice.”

 

[AnotherVoice]

You seem to be suffereing from the most common delusion among American Catholics.
You are suggesting that the bishops should act like elected representatives.

Elected politicians are to speak FOR their constituents.
They are to represent citizens.

BISHOPS are to speak TO those under their authority.
BISHOPS are to teach the teachings of the Church.

Apples.
Oranges.

Perhaps I am functioning under a delusion; I had hoped that the bishops would be instrumental in formulating a solution to a very serious problem. I wonder if they view their job in the terms that you describe.

Whether a person is elected or appointed to a position of high rank should not change their perspective on the common good. If, as you imply, the bishops are not speaking “for” the good of all of their constituents; then I feel their outlook to be flawed.

 

[AnotherVoice]

Lots of focus here on illegal Hispanics. And obviously because it constitutes the greatest number of illegals. But you’d be surprised how many illegal Irish there are in Boston, New York, Chicago, San Francisco, and LA. Somehow I doubt they’re going to be asked for their paperwork…

Do you hsve a source for this surprise?

 

[catharina]

Perhaps I am functioning under a delusion; I had hoped that the bishops would be instrumental in formulating a solution to a very serious problem. I wonder if they view their job in the terms that you describe.

Whether a person is elected or appointed to a position of high rank should not change their perspective on the common good. If, as you imply, the bishops are not speaking “for” the good of all of their constituents; then I feel their outlook to be flawed.

I’m certain that Bishops know they have authority over us.
I’m amazed that you seem to be unaware of that fact.

They are NOT our representaives.
They are our TEACHERS.

Your imaginary view of their actual graced tasks is irrelevant.

 

[canadianguy1143]

You should have continued from here:

2242 The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s."48 “We must obey God rather than men”:49

When citizens are under the oppression of a public authority which oversteps its competence, they should still not refuse to give or to do what is objectively demanded of them by the common good; but it is legitimate for them to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens against the abuse of this authority within the limits of the natural law and the Law of the Gospel.50

2243 Armed resistance to oppression by political authority is not legitimate, unless all the following conditions are met: 1) there is certain, grave, and prolonged violation of fundamental rights; 2) all other means of redress have been exhausted; 3) such resistance will not provoke worse disorders; 4) there is well-founded hope of success; and 5) it is impossible reasonably to foresee any better solution.

The political community and the Church

2244 Every institution is inspired, at least implicitly, by a vision of man and his destiny, from which it derives the point of reference for its judgment, its hierarchy of values, its line of conduct. Most societies have formed their institutions in the recognition of a certain preeminence of man over things. Only the divinely revealed religion has clearly recognized man’s origin and destiny in God, the Creator and Redeemer. The Church invites political authorities to measure their judgments and decisions against this inspired truth about God and man:

Societies not recognizing this vision or rejecting it in the name of their independence from God are brought to seek their criteria and goal in themselves or to borrow them from some ideology. Since they do not admit that one can defend an objective criterion of good and evil, they arrogate to themselves an explicit or implicit totalitarian power over man and his destiny, as history shows.51

2245 The Church, because of her commission and competence, is not to be confused in any way with the political community. She is both the sign and the safeguard of the transcendent character of the human person. "The Church respects and encourages the political freedom and responsibility of the citizen."52

2246 It is a part of the Church’s mission "to pass moral judgments even in matters related to politics, whenever the fundamental rights of man or the salvation of souls requires it. The means, the only means, she may use are those which are in accord with the Gospel and the welfare of all men according to the diversity of times and circumstances."53

Why did you skip all of the above as you ‘built your case’

I didn’t skip over it as the Catechism is quite large and in depth. Since I am Canadian, I don’t have a personal perspective on this.

What about this law offends you most? Is it because of racial profiling?

 

[catharina]

I didn’t skip over it as the Catechism is quite large and in depth. Since I am Canadian, I don’t have a personal perspective on this.

What about this law offends you most? Is it because of racial profiling?

It’s the overriding lack of charity that offends, especially since
it’s clearly coupled with and dependent on racial profiling.

It’s odious.

 

[canadianguy1143]

It’s the overriding lack of charity that offends, especially since
it’s clearly coupled with and dependent on racial profiling.

It’s odious.

I can see how to some that racial profiling would be offensive, but doesn’t the government have a responsibility to ensure that immigration be done legally?

 

[catharina]

I can see how to some that racial profiling would be offensive, but doesn’t the government have a responsibility to ensure that immigration be done legally?

When government passes laws that rings the bell of memory
to " let’s round up the Jews," the govt has stepped over a line.

 

[AnotherVoice]

I’m certain that Bishops know they have authority over us.
I’m amazed that you seem to be unaware of that fact.

They are NOT our representaives.
They are our TEACHERS.

Your imaginary view of their actual graced tasks is irrelevant.

You forgot to mention that the Bishops only have authority in matters of the faith.

We certainly have differing opinions regarding relevance.

 

[Malkin71]

Do you consider this post of yours to hold any credibility?
"There was a report on this recently.

HUH?

hispanic5.com/more_hispanics_leaving_catholicism_for_evangelical_protestantism.htm

Read for yourself.