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Gottle_of_Geer
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lindalou725
Guest
In response to JeffReedy:
:clapping: Way to Go. You explained so well HOW we evangelize. Like St. Francis of Assisi said “and when necessary,use words.”. I have always liked the knowlege that we are only responsible for sowing the seeds, God is the one who converts. It truly is a great joy to see the fruit of the seeds we sow.
“Let our faith be like the mustard seed, nourished by the waters of our baptism, that it may grow and flourish in the love of God our Father.”
Linda Smith, 02/02/02
This was a locution I recieved at the beginning of morning mass nearly 3 years ago. I wrote it down, and was amazed that the gospel that day was about the “mustard seed”. I considered that a signal grace and added it to the cover of my booklet of prayers.
Lindalou
:clapping: Way to Go. You explained so well HOW we evangelize. Like St. Francis of Assisi said “and when necessary,use words.”. I have always liked the knowlege that we are only responsible for sowing the seeds, God is the one who converts. It truly is a great joy to see the fruit of the seeds we sow.
“Let our faith be like the mustard seed, nourished by the waters of our baptism, that it may grow and flourish in the love of God our Father.”
Linda Smith, 02/02/02
This was a locution I recieved at the beginning of morning mass nearly 3 years ago. I wrote it down, and was amazed that the gospel that day was about the “mustard seed”. I considered that a signal grace and added it to the cover of my booklet of prayers.
Lindalou
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PaulDupre
Guest
That’s beautiful, Linda, and so true.
Paul
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lindalou725
Guest
ExCatholic: you will be greatly disappointed waiting for a rapture that will not happen:
Matt 24:29-31 “Immediately AFTER the tribulation…they will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds… he will send out his angels with a trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect.”
1 Cor 15:51-52 “we shall not all fall asleep, but WE WILL ALL BE CHANGED… AT THE LAST TRUMPET. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible.”
1 Thess 4:15-17 “COMING OF THE LORD…with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God… THEN WE WHO ARE STILL ALIVE…will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.”
2 Thess 2:1,3,8 “with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling with him…Let no one deceive you in any way. FOR UNLESS THE APOSTASY COMES FIRST AND THE LAWLESS ONE IS REVEALED…WHOM THE LORD (Jesus) will kill with the breath of his mouth and render powerless by the manifestation of his coming.”
Lindalou
Matt 24:29-31 “Immediately AFTER the tribulation…they will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds… he will send out his angels with a trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect.”
1 Cor 15:51-52 “we shall not all fall asleep, but WE WILL ALL BE CHANGED… AT THE LAST TRUMPET. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible.”
1 Thess 4:15-17 “COMING OF THE LORD…with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God… THEN WE WHO ARE STILL ALIVE…will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.”
2 Thess 2:1,3,8 “with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling with him…Let no one deceive you in any way. FOR UNLESS THE APOSTASY COMES FIRST AND THE LAWLESS ONE IS REVEALED…WHOM THE LORD (Jesus) will kill with the breath of his mouth and render powerless by the manifestation of his coming.”
Lindalou
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excatholic
Guest
Jimmy the Council of trent does condemn me to hell for not believing in transubstantiation.
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jimmy
Guest
Actually I don’t think they condemn you to hell but they do anathematize you.
It is completely founded though, Since Christ said in John 6
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Philthy
Guest
ExCatholic just give it up. This entire thread is stupid and you are entirely to blame. The John 14:6 quote doesn’t prove AT ALL what you want it to. It simply says that no one goes to the Father except through Christ - doesn’t say you have to KNOW it’s happening that way. Doesn’t even say it has to happen in this life. You’ve simply inserted your own beliefs and slandered a Cardinal with this weak attempt at discrediting the Church. How much time did you waste pulling this nonsense up? Rediculous…You should be ashamed, but your pride has you slashing out instead. Honestly…
Phil
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MariaG
Guest
The Catholic position is somewhat like this analogy. A person gets in a car wreck, is knocked unconscious and is rushed to the hospital for emergency surgery. The person never gets to meet the surgeon beforehand, yet the surgeon still is able to save the person’s life. Protestants think only those who meet the surgeon first will be saved condemning to death all who never had a chance to meet the surgeon. Catholics try not to impose our finite understanding upon our infinite God.
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trogiah
Guest
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
I believe this is true. But what does it mean to go through Jesus to get to the Father.
Do I go through Jesus to get to the Father by saying “I believe in Jesus.”?
Do I go through Jesus to get to the Father by partaking in the Eucharist with full belief in trans-substantiation (sp?)?
What did Jesus say about this?
He said this:
**A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.
Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
So by their fruits you will know them.**
He also said this:
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
Another time he asked this question:
** “What is your opinion? A man had two sons. He came to the first and said, ‘Son, go out and work in the vineyard today.’
He said in reply, ‘I will not,’ but afterwards he changed his mind and went.
The man came to the other son and gave the same order. He said in reply, ‘Yes, sir,’ but did not go.Which of the two did his father’s will?” They answered, “The first.” Jesus said to them, "Amen, I say to you, tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God before you.
**
Jesus said many things that can be clearly interpreted to mean those who follow him are those who live lives in touch with God’s kingdom. Those who don’t live lives in touch with God’s kingdom are not following Jesus.
We go through Jesus to get to the father by living lives in touch with God’s kingom. Any person anywhere in the world, whether or not they have ever heard the name of Jesus, goes through Jesus to get to the Father by living a life in touch with God’s kingdom.
Jesus also said this:
** "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You lock the kingdom of heaven before human beings. You do not enter yourselves, nor do you allow entrance to those trying to enter.
**
I think that verse should give clear warning to those who assume that just because they have the keys to the kingdom of heaven that they are guaranteed entrance to that kingdom. They only get into the kingdom if they walk the path that leads them to it. Having the keys in their pocket doesn’t walk the walk for them.
When the question comes up about people who have never heard of Jesus being saved or not, some of us are comforted by the “loophole” about baptism of desire. Those who live good lives can hope to be saved. The fact is that this “loophole” is in fact the only way in for any of us. If we don’t live lives in touch with God’s kingdom, it doesn’t matter what sacraments we have received or how many times we have proclaimed that we believe in Jesus.
“Jimmy the Council of trent does condemn me to hell for not believing in transubstantiation.”
Regarding condemnation. Jesus repeatedly stated what can earn a person condemnation. A person is condemned for failing to practice forgiveness. A person is judged in the same manner they judge others. Only God has the power to carry out condemnation.
The Council of Trent and any other council, pope, bishop, or saint do not have the power to do such a thing. Anyone claiming to do so is absurd.
whew!!
Had to get all that off my chest. I read this thread last night and went to bed feeling frustrated. Woke up this morning with what seemed like a clear answer.
peace
-Jim
I believe this is true. But what does it mean to go through Jesus to get to the Father.
Do I go through Jesus to get to the Father by saying “I believe in Jesus.”?
Do I go through Jesus to get to the Father by partaking in the Eucharist with full belief in trans-substantiation (sp?)?
What did Jesus say about this?
He said this:
**A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.
Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
So by their fruits you will know them.**
He also said this:
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
Another time he asked this question:
** “What is your opinion? A man had two sons. He came to the first and said, ‘Son, go out and work in the vineyard today.’
He said in reply, ‘I will not,’ but afterwards he changed his mind and went.
The man came to the other son and gave the same order. He said in reply, ‘Yes, sir,’ but did not go.Which of the two did his father’s will?” They answered, “The first.” Jesus said to them, "Amen, I say to you, tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God before you.
**
Jesus said many things that can be clearly interpreted to mean those who follow him are those who live lives in touch with God’s kingdom. Those who don’t live lives in touch with God’s kingdom are not following Jesus.
We go through Jesus to get to the father by living lives in touch with God’s kingom. Any person anywhere in the world, whether or not they have ever heard the name of Jesus, goes through Jesus to get to the Father by living a life in touch with God’s kingdom.
Jesus also said this:
** "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You lock the kingdom of heaven before human beings. You do not enter yourselves, nor do you allow entrance to those trying to enter.
**
I think that verse should give clear warning to those who assume that just because they have the keys to the kingdom of heaven that they are guaranteed entrance to that kingdom. They only get into the kingdom if they walk the path that leads them to it. Having the keys in their pocket doesn’t walk the walk for them.
When the question comes up about people who have never heard of Jesus being saved or not, some of us are comforted by the “loophole” about baptism of desire. Those who live good lives can hope to be saved. The fact is that this “loophole” is in fact the only way in for any of us. If we don’t live lives in touch with God’s kingdom, it doesn’t matter what sacraments we have received or how many times we have proclaimed that we believe in Jesus.
“Jimmy the Council of trent does condemn me to hell for not believing in transubstantiation.”
Regarding condemnation. Jesus repeatedly stated what can earn a person condemnation. A person is condemned for failing to practice forgiveness. A person is judged in the same manner they judge others. Only God has the power to carry out condemnation.
The Council of Trent and any other council, pope, bishop, or saint do not have the power to do such a thing. Anyone claiming to do so is absurd.
whew!!
Had to get all that off my chest. I read this thread last night and went to bed feeling frustrated. Woke up this morning with what seemed like a clear answer.
peace
-Jim
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j_arden
Guest
Lindalou -
You wrote, “this is a locution I recieved at morning mass.” What is a locution? Who did you recieve it from? I’m just curious as I’ve never encountered this term before. Also, are you Linda Smith, the author of your quote? I don’t mean to be dense, I’m just a little confused.
Peace,
JP
You wrote, “this is a locution I recieved at morning mass.” What is a locution? Who did you recieve it from? I’m just curious as I’ve never encountered this term before. Also, are you Linda Smith, the author of your quote? I don’t mean to be dense, I’m just a little confused.
Peace,
JP
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Greg_McPherran
Guest
Jesus also said: “Stop condemning and you will not be condemned.” **Luke 6:37 **
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edwinG
Guest
Hi,
I am using this post as it is the first post in this thread.
I feel that the cardinal is right for the wrong reasons. That makes him wrong as the truth is what is in your heart. The Holy Spirit has shown me that being right for the wrong reasons is unacceptable.
This cardinal seems to think people can be saved because of their works. This is never right.
However " Every knee will bend and every tongue will confess" is the reason people have the opportunity to live in God’s presence. So every slate will be cleaned, and every sin is cast away. Fire will make this possible. I do not want to find Jesus through this fire. This is hell. After hell, judgment and the kingdom of God or the lake of fire for eternity. This judgment is on their deeds or works. As the spirit is always available you will be judged on how well you followed the spirit. Or the law if you so chose.As all now believe muslim will stand beside agnostic beside Christian. Of course this will not happen until after the rapture when this event keeps us away from the melting heavens and earth and the formation of new ones.
Being a Christian now is to have joy and peace even in tribulation, through the power of the Holy Spirit. Only Christians are under the law of liberty(if they so choose to believe) and not the laws of men. Faith applies to those who believe, to the extent of their faith.Faith is not subject to the laws of the visible. ( earth etc) The law cannot find a Christian guilty, as we are under liberty in the Holy Spirit. We follow Him and in so doing are free and not subject to any laws except His will. And this gives Blessed lives. Most would call it luck. Finding a car park, not being late, finding a great special, all things in every situation. And the promise He has given to you as an individual. Do you have your promise yet? If not why not? Ask yourself.
So why would you not want to tell someone about Christ so that they can live a life under faith, free from the laws. You dont have to preach and build walls, just witness and make them jealous so their hearts become envious of our life. In Christ we are so so so pampered. Man He loves us and He is supreme. Let go of the steering wheel of your life,sit back and enjoy the ride of your life safe in the strength of the Holy Spirit.
I agree with you Carol.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG
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mtr01
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Hi Edwin. Since you are quoting the article in the first post, I thought I ought to let you know (in case you haven’t read further) that this article is a fake. The contents misrepresent the actual interview (posted a few posts later) and is a scam to discredit the Catholic Church.
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hlgomez
Guest
Ex-Catholic,
I suggest you study the history of the “church” you are in now. When was it founded, and who was its founder. And “You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
Pio
I suggest you study the history of the “church” you are in now. When was it founded, and who was its founder. And “You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
Pio
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mrS4ntA
Guest
“to be steeped in history is to cease to be protestant.”
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jmm08
Guest
It looks to me like the full text of Cardinal Arinze’s comments are available here: fobes.net/nostra.html
The title of this thread “Catholic Cardinal says we no longer need Jesus” is an obvious lie.
Part of what Cardinal Arinze said: But we know that Christ, who says, “I am the way, the truth and the light,” died on the Cross for everyone.
To me, it seems that Cardinal Arinze is saying that all who are saved (go to heaven) are saved through Jesus Christ. That is quite the opposite of saying that we no longer need Jesus.
The title of this thread “Catholic Cardinal says we no longer need Jesus” is an obvious lie.
Part of what Cardinal Arinze said: But we know that Christ, who says, “I am the way, the truth and the light,” died on the Cross for everyone.
To me, it seems that Cardinal Arinze is saying that all who are saved (go to heaven) are saved through Jesus Christ. That is quite the opposite of saying that we no longer need Jesus.
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sarcophagus
Guest
excatholic,
After reading your article, and then reading paul’s article, I can see where you would think that Cardinal Arinze said that you can get to heaven without jesus.
The quotes you gave in your article are misleading because half of them are missing. If you read the full article, you will understand what the cardinal was trying to convey, that for those who do not know jesus, God is forgiving…if they lead a good life. If they are bad, for example, murdering, not having good-will, etc., then they will go to hell.
Take for example, a country that does not welcome christianity. Those in the country will follow the religion set before them, most likely. If they lead a good life, without knowing anything of christianity, they can still go to heaven because God is a just God, not a merciless one.
It’s not just catholic teaching, it’s God’s teaching. I see by your name, that you obviously have some issues with the catholic church. I’m not catholic, I actually am not christian. And still, my opinion is what I took from the cardinal’s words. I am not biased toward one way of thinking like you, and many others seem to be.
Take a step back and re-read ALL of cardinal arinze’s words and you will see that he was simply addressing the questions. The whole document is about “forcing religious conversions” and how that does not work. Yes, it’s easy to take out of context, especially the last quote, but keep in mind, he does want everyone to be christian, he just knows that that will never happen.
After reading your article, and then reading paul’s article, I can see where you would think that Cardinal Arinze said that you can get to heaven without jesus.
The quotes you gave in your article are misleading because half of them are missing. If you read the full article, you will understand what the cardinal was trying to convey, that for those who do not know jesus, God is forgiving…if they lead a good life. If they are bad, for example, murdering, not having good-will, etc., then they will go to hell.
Take for example, a country that does not welcome christianity. Those in the country will follow the religion set before them, most likely. If they lead a good life, without knowing anything of christianity, they can still go to heaven because God is a just God, not a merciless one.
It’s not just catholic teaching, it’s God’s teaching. I see by your name, that you obviously have some issues with the catholic church. I’m not catholic, I actually am not christian. And still, my opinion is what I took from the cardinal’s words. I am not biased toward one way of thinking like you, and many others seem to be.
Take a step back and re-read ALL of cardinal arinze’s words and you will see that he was simply addressing the questions. The whole document is about “forcing religious conversions” and how that does not work. Yes, it’s easy to take out of context, especially the last quote, but keep in mind, he does want everyone to be christian, he just knows that that will never happen.
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MichaelTDoyle
Guest
Wow!!! What a wonderful post. Superb exegesis. You gave me much to think on (and I gotta get off my duff and try harder to treat those around me with charity!) Thanks for the kick in the pants!
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losav
Guest
Hi excatholic, are you trying to tell us that you seem to know what the heart of catholicsm?
Though I am not so much knowledgable of all the catholic teachings but I haven’t encountered this teachings that our popes are considered gods(?!!!
).Please be so prudent, show charity and love truth. Your ignorance of the catholic teachings just made me regarded you as someone not credible to discredit not even the least of our church teachings. By the way, Paul is asking you to provide us the historical proof of your church but you seem to ignore it. Or maybe just the name of your church and we will do the research for you if you are lost somewhere. I shouldn’t add to this this forum so as not to give much importance to old-accusations of the catholic church but because you are not giving us the name of your church, that prompted me to join.
Lastly, maybe you forget that the Bible you are quoting has been handed over to you by our church. And before our church handed that to groups like you, our fathers had understood very well what’s in those books so i would suggest you to refrain preaching to us cuz you are like…:banghead: .
God bless excatholic and come home.
-losav
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