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Well he has a lot of Catholics to save. :bounce:
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rayne89
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May I kindly correct you. The pope is the vicar of Christ on earth. That means he is his representative. My state representative is supposed to represent me in government - it doesn’t mean he is me.
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James_2_24
Guest
Ex-Catholic -
Do you attend Calvary Chapel by any chance?
Thanks,
James 2:24
Do you attend Calvary Chapel by any chance?
Thanks,
James 2:24
S
sweetchuck
Guest
Not sure if this was posted, but here is the teaching, directly from the Catechism.
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
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excatholic
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Friend: I am sorry you came to the conclusion that I thought Job was in hell. I certainly don’t believe that. As I am sure you know, Moses gave us the law and established the Jewish faith. Trying to categorize anyone before the law as being Jewish would be a matter for debate. However God did have his chosen people prior to the law and Job was one of his favorites. Job lived in a time before the first covenant (the law) was established. I believe Job was released from Abraham’s bosom when Jesus came a preached the Gospel to all who dwelled there.
We are currently in a dispensation known as “grace”. We are stuck on the 69th week (Daniel chapter 9) and waiting for all whom will to come to the saving grace of Jesus the Messiah. Job lived in a different dispensation and he was righteous in the sight of God. I don’t know how Job accomplished this feat, as I need his grace every day for my unrighteousness. Maybe sin was not abounding like it is today? Who knows, but I am confident I will see Job in heaven. I hope to see you too.
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sweetchuck
Guest
seems to be a lot of talk about anti-Catholicism here, of which the media proudly bears. You guys should check out Philip Jenkins book, “The New Anti-Catholicism: The Last Acceptable Prejudice”. I just got through reading it for a class I’m taking and it was very eye-opening. He’s a former Catholic himself, and provides a very objective point of view in defense of the Catholic Church against the slander of the left, the media, hollywood and others. I recommend it. :clapping:
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sweetchuck
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perhaps there is some misunderstandings about Old Testament figures in hell. The Catechism, again, is very illumniating on this topic…
Paragraph 1. CHRIST DESCENDED INTO HELL
632 The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was “raised from the dead” presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection.477 This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ’s descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Saviour, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.478
633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.479 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”:480 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Saviour in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."481 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.482
634 "The gospel was preached even to the dead."483 The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus’ messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ’s redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.
635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."484 Jesus, “the Author of life”, by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage."485 Henceforth the risen Christ holds “the keys of Death and Hades”, so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."486
Paragraph 1. CHRIST DESCENDED INTO HELL
632 The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was “raised from the dead” presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection.477 This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ’s descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Saviour, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.478
633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.479 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”:480 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Saviour in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."481 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.482
634 "The gospel was preached even to the dead."483 The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus’ messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ’s redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.
635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."484 Jesus, “the Author of life”, by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage."485 Henceforth the risen Christ holds “the keys of Death and Hades”, so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."486
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ICXCNIKA
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carol marie:
Actually, in 1 John 4:6 I think St. John was dealing with heresy, not evangelism.
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jimmy
Guest
Wow, this thread has grown. I can’t respond to everything. If anything is wrong in this I defer to the church, but I think everything is correct.
First of all, the cardinal is not infallable, so if he says something that is not true it does not change anything. The pope isn’t even infallable on everything he says. The cardinal may have stepped over the line, I do not know, but if he did, that does not affect the teaching of the church. The teaching of the church will always be the same.
Second, God judges us based on what we know. If that were not true, everyone would be going to hell except those who follow every teaching of the one true church, what ever that church is. Christ came down to sacrifice himself for all, not just us Christians. God desires everyone to know him and to love him and to be with him in his kingdom. Those who do not know what Christ did, will be judged on the way they live there life according to what they know of God.
Only God knows the heart of a man or woman and only he can say whether the man sincerely loves him and wants to know him, and if they would follow Christ if they knew the truth. There is an unequal oportunity among the religions, to get to God. There is a far greater chance of a Christian getting to God than a bhudist or a muslim because the Christian has heard the truth and he adheres to it.
There is a degree of responsibility to follow the truth. The muslim has the responsibilty to follow what he knows. The protestant has more responsibility than the muslim because he knows more of the truth. The Orthodox have a greater responsibility to follow the truth because they are much closer to the truth. The Catholics have the greatest responsibility to follow the truth because they have been handed the truth and they are expected to follow it. So the judgement will be the hardest on the Catholics.
Now that does not mean that a muslim should stay muslim. There is a greater chance a muslim will stray from the truth than a Christian becuase they are not recieving the same grace we recieve as Christians. If a muslim would read about Jesus and just assume that he is fine being outside Christianity, and stays where he is. He is outwardly rejecting God and Christ by his lack of caring for the truth. That is different. He is sending himself to hell with his lack of caring to know the truth of God. If a musliim learns that Jesus may have done what was claimed to him, and they have some belief that it may be true but they do not follow through on that belief and search it out, that is the same as rejecting it.
First of all, the cardinal is not infallable, so if he says something that is not true it does not change anything. The pope isn’t even infallable on everything he says. The cardinal may have stepped over the line, I do not know, but if he did, that does not affect the teaching of the church. The teaching of the church will always be the same.
Second, God judges us based on what we know. If that were not true, everyone would be going to hell except those who follow every teaching of the one true church, what ever that church is. Christ came down to sacrifice himself for all, not just us Christians. God desires everyone to know him and to love him and to be with him in his kingdom. Those who do not know what Christ did, will be judged on the way they live there life according to what they know of God.
The bhudists and the muslims believe that there religion is the true religion just like we believe ours is the true one. Just because they have heard the name of Jesus and a few things about him does not mean that they are completely responsible to believe that Christ died for there sins. It takes a long time to gain the faith to believe this. I was born a Catholic but that does not mean that I always believed in God. There was a time when I was younger that I did not believe in God, or atleast was very confused. It takes much more than just a little discussion to gain faith, it takes a long time. I started reading about it and I began to believe it over time.
Only God knows the heart of a man or woman and only he can say whether the man sincerely loves him and wants to know him, and if they would follow Christ if they knew the truth. There is an unequal oportunity among the religions, to get to God. There is a far greater chance of a Christian getting to God than a bhudist or a muslim because the Christian has heard the truth and he adheres to it.
There is a degree of responsibility to follow the truth. The muslim has the responsibilty to follow what he knows. The protestant has more responsibility than the muslim because he knows more of the truth. The Orthodox have a greater responsibility to follow the truth because they are much closer to the truth. The Catholics have the greatest responsibility to follow the truth because they have been handed the truth and they are expected to follow it. So the judgement will be the hardest on the Catholics.
Now that does not mean that a muslim should stay muslim. There is a greater chance a muslim will stray from the truth than a Christian becuase they are not recieving the same grace we recieve as Christians. If a muslim would read about Jesus and just assume that he is fine being outside Christianity, and stays where he is. He is outwardly rejecting God and Christ by his lack of caring for the truth. That is different. He is sending himself to hell with his lack of caring to know the truth of God. If a musliim learns that Jesus may have done what was claimed to him, and they have some belief that it may be true but they do not follow through on that belief and search it out, that is the same as rejecting it.
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jimmy
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Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. John6 *
If you accept that all non christians are going to hell then you must accept that all born agains and all protestants who do not believe in the true presence are going to hell because they do not eat the body of Christ. Judgement is based on our desire to know and to love God, in what ever form he takes, and our want to follow his commandments. If we desire to know and to love God, then we will be saved. If we do not, then we will go to hell.
You must remember that Christ sacrificed himself for all, not just for the Christians.
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rayne89
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I don’t know what gave you the idea that I think all non Christians are going to hell or that all non Catholics are going to hell. I never said that at all. And I certainly don’t believe that. Can you please explain to me what I said to give you that idea?
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jimmy
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You have no idea what you are talking about. Why don’t you learn about the Catholic church before you post false statements.
Just because someone is born in China and has never heard of Christ does not mean they are going to hell. Christ died for all, even those who never heard of him. He desires all to be saved as it says in my post above. Yes, Christ is the one and only way and no one shall be saved without him but his sacrifice was for everyone. You do not have to know it happened for it to be for you. All who get to heaven will get there by the sacrifice of Christ but that may include a hermit in China who has never heard of him. It is not the hermits fault that he has not heard of Christ, that is what he was born into. God does not predestine people to hell. Your view of God is not a mercyful God. Gods not racist against the chinese hermits who have not heard of him. He loves all, and he will save all who love him. They will get there by the sacrifice of Christ.
Maybe someone can help me here. I recall a statement of Jesus that said something to the affect that the judgement will be easier on those who have not heard of him than those who have and did not adhere.
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kepha1
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Excatholic, since you have chosen to ignore every one of my questions, and have not answered any of my other posts, I will give you a reminder.
Why is it that when a Protestant comes home to the Church Jesus founded, they still revere their former faith, and can even attend their old church, but when a Catholic turns his back on his faith, he becomes an anti-Catholic? You have not answered this question, excatholic, because admission of the truth says a lot about your platform.
Matthew 8:13 And to the centurion Jesus said, “Go; be it done for you as you have believed.” And the servant was healed at that very moment.
How, or when, did the servant accept Jesus, and get healed when the servant had never seen or heard of Him?
You have not answered this question, excatholic, because the salvation of the servant (salvum means to heal) does not fit into your narrow man-made view.
1 Cor. 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is consecrated through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is consecrated through her husband.
What does consecrated mean, excatholic? Aren’t all unbelievers going to hell?
Why have you evaded this question? Would you like a bit of help with it?
Why is it that when a Protestant comes home to the Church Jesus founded, they still revere their former faith, and can even attend their old church, but when a Catholic turns his back on his faith, he becomes an anti-Catholic? You have not answered this question, excatholic, because admission of the truth says a lot about your platform.
Matthew 8:13 And to the centurion Jesus said, “Go; be it done for you as you have believed.” And the servant was healed at that very moment.
How, or when, did the servant accept Jesus, and get healed when the servant had never seen or heard of Him?
You have not answered this question, excatholic, because the salvation of the servant (salvum means to heal) does not fit into your narrow man-made view.
1 Cor. 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is consecrated through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is consecrated through her husband.
What does consecrated mean, excatholic? Aren’t all unbelievers going to hell?
Why have you evaded this question? Would you like a bit of help with it?
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kepha1
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I don’t either, and it is not the point, which the point being your narrow unbiblical unhistorical view of salvation. Cardinal Arinze, when NOT taken out of context, is completely in line with scripture.
And where exactly did they dwell? Will you admit to that reality? Besides, I just read a Protestant web site that says Job predates Abraham, so how could he, a Babylonian, before Abraham, be favoured by God and come from Abrahams bosom??
Your criteria for salvation no matter when people lived, or where, is unreasonable. That is the point. The full context of what Cardinal Arinze says is reasonable, you keep trying to worm out of the fact that you have been proven dead wrong, and repeatedly. That is pride.
You admit you don’t know how Job could accomplish “this feat”, but claim to know more about salvation than a good bishop, you post a catchy misleading headline from a bigoted newspaper that defends witchcraft, you take a bishops quotes out of context, you ignore sound reasonable defenses of this bishop who, like you, attack him just like vicious cults, you ignore anything that requires thoughtful honesty. Then, in typical mindless anti-Catholic behaviour, throw in red herrings like the rapture and the Koran!
Here is another question for you to ignore, ex.
If Cardinal Arinze becomes our next Pope, will the Ku Klux Klan have an increase or a decrease in membership???
kepha1
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WBB
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Oh, but that is the problem I am encountering with many protestants on this forum, Jimmy. They profess to know what the Catholic Church teaches and to also understand it because they have their *Catechism of the Catholic Church *handy. I think it is a waste of typing time to sit and argue with people who are completely closed to the true teaching of the Catholic Church, for they already know the error of the Catholic Church’s ways and have come to correct them. They refuse to even be open to the possibility that what the Catholic Church teaches could be the correct interpretation of the faith. And when we offer passages of scripture to support our teaching, of course, we are wrong because they have the right to interpret those passages any way that they want. It is very disheartening to sit and try to make a charitable point only to be told that we are in heresy or we are wrong or we have corrupted the gospel. I just don’t think it is productive at all to be that way.
Kepha1, that is a wonderful question that I have never even thought to ask. I will give you my answer to that question since I am a convert. It is because when a protestant comes home to the Catholic Church, they are fulfilled. They take everything that their protestant teachers gave them and they fill what is lacking by the teachings of the Catholic Church. When a Catholic leaves the Church, he is settling for a reduction in the fullness of that faith. Naturally, he has to defend his decision for giving up some of the fullness of the faith, and so he does it by criticizing the very institution that has the fullness of the faith. For if he doesn’t criticize it, then he must admit that his protestant church is lacking.
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mrS4ntA
Guest
Some of the Pope’s titles:
Vicar of Christ
Servant of the Servants of God
vicar=representative
servant =/= God
get your dictionary, if you cant even believe that
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George2
Guest
To be a Seventh Day Adventist is to predicate most of you theology on NOT being Catholic.
I know some Canadians who feel very Canadian by hating America.
Also most SDA don’t understand Catholicism. It is about as close to an actual mind controlling cult as you can get. Their pastors lie to them about Catholicism and other religions.
they prey on the lonely and those without families or friends.
I know some Canadians who feel very Canadian by hating America.
Also most SDA don’t understand Catholicism. It is about as close to an actual mind controlling cult as you can get. Their pastors lie to them about Catholicism and other religions.
they prey on the lonely and those without families or friends.
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WBB
Guest
You need to post this to Myhrr over on the Non-Catholic forum. It seems that Myhrr believes that we are required to believe that the Pope is God on earth.Some of the Pope’s titles:
Vicar of Christ
Servant of the Servants of God
vicar=representative
servant =/= God
get your dictionary, if you cant even believe that
K
kepha1
Guest
Myhrr is saying no such thing.
How can you possibly equate “Servant of God” with God on earth?
“Servant of the Servants of God”. That means the Pope is a servant to his bishops.
Both titles are fitting. What is confusing to Protestants is they think the Catholic Church is structured the same as General Motors or Cuba. It is not.
She is modelled after the Old Davidic Kingdom. (btw, all OT kings had their mother as queens)
Re: the Pope being God on earth: I suppose its time we see some phoney doctored up quotes out of obscure encyclopedias (that no one can access) from liars who can’t use truth to make a point. Pope Boniface is a favorite, his “quotes” are on just about every hate site on the internet.
kepha1
How can you possibly equate “Servant of God” with God on earth?
“Servant of the Servants of God”. That means the Pope is a servant to his bishops.
Both titles are fitting. What is confusing to Protestants is they think the Catholic Church is structured the same as General Motors or Cuba. It is not.
She is modelled after the Old Davidic Kingdom. (btw, all OT kings had their mother as queens)
Re: the Pope being God on earth: I suppose its time we see some phoney doctored up quotes out of obscure encyclopedias (that no one can access) from liars who can’t use truth to make a point. Pope Boniface is a favorite, his “quotes” are on just about every hate site on the internet.
kepha1
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