Catholic Charismatic Renewal, an effective response to Charismatic Evanglicals?

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JKirkLVNV said:
No, but I’m not sure the orans falls into that category, as it is an ancient position of prayer. I know how I feel about it, how Netmil(name removed by moderator) feels about it, etc., but are we SURE that the Church regards its use a violation of a liturgical norm?
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I am. The Orans is a Priestly Gesture.
The “Hands Extended” directive is always given to the priest.
I have asked on every thread, can someone give me any document where this directive is given to the laity?

Even the Altar servers are given a directive to fold their hands.

So are we Priests? No. And we should not be using the Orans in the liturgy. Bishops, however, do override it. We should listen to our Bishops but it is their sin and not ours.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator) said:
I am. The Orans is a Priestly Gesture.
The “Hands Extended” directive is always given to the priest.
I have asked on every thread, can someone give me any document where this directive is given to the laity?

Even the Altar servers are given a directive to fold their hands.

So are we Priests? No. And we should not be using the Orans in the liturgy. Bishops, however, do override it. We should listen to our Bishops but it is their sin and not ours.
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why do people feel the need to do something with their hands…wave them around, hold hands, etc., is it so hard to clasp your hands in prayer or leave them by your side:confused:
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I mean is this so hard???
 
colliric said:
my point exactly.
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Somehow—this just keeps going over your head. Last I heard the charismatics were part of the Latin (Roman) rite.

RS-2004

[3.] The norms contained in the present Instruction are to be understood as pertaining to liturgical matters in the Roman Rite, and, mutatis mutandis, in the other Rites of the Latin Church that are duly acknowledged by law.

[114.] “At Sunday Masses in parishes, insofar as parishes are ‘Eucharistic communities’, it is customary to find different groups, movements, associations, and even the smaller religious communities present in the parish.”[202] While it is permissible that Mass should be celebrated for particular groups according to the norm of law,[203] these groups are nevertheless not exempt from the faithful observance of the liturgical norms.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator) said:
I think you better talk to that big traddie over in Rome. He seems to disagree with you.

And hon, if you think “traddies” are a fad (eventhough you detest labels) come on over to my parish. We “traddies” are breeding you out.

Over and above that, while the Charismatics have attempted to take over some of the parishes here in Detroit (one that I left, for example) we are growing while they are waning.

I think you might even be surprised how the “traddies” are growing even in Steubenville. The Charismatics are not. I’ll be staying down there in May. Going to a “traddie” mass!
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These are the kind of quotes that make me cringe. At our church you wont see many families of under five (except mine I have only two children 😦 ) In fact there are some families of ten and eleven. BIG families all very knowledgeable of the faith.

I keep hearing how the Charismatic movement in uncatholic. What makes me sad is you are catholics trying to judge other catholics. You do not know what is in the heart of those who worship with there arms in the air or who sway. I guess what amazes me is that those I know in the Charismatic movement (remember I am still new at this and at times uncomfortable with the outward movement) is that they are not doing these movements to impress me with their extensive knowledge of the Church but for genuine love of their God. I can only hope that I can one day not be so worried about what the rules are and just love Him in such an open and outward way as a child who loves his own parents.

I am not saying that they don’t care about the rules, because they do and they know how important they are, but you know God wants our love too. Lets stop judge others actions and leave that up to God alone.👍

My two cents!
 
st_lucy said:
Thank you!

I currently go to a Charismatic Church. I am amazed on devotion that goes on in our church. Not only is there a deep devotion but a deep knowledge and yearning of and for the Church. This is our first Charismatic Church and we have only been attending for six months but I really enjoy being in a church where I am not in minority of actually knowing Our Lord is truly present in the Holy Eucharist.

I hear so much negativity on the Charismatic Church, and I must say I was one of them, but I most say that if you haven’t been to a true Catholic Charismatic movement than you really shouldn’t judge.

My two cents!
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Just checked my Baltimore Catechism. Nothing about a charismatic church in it. You can have your glossolallia, I’ll stick with Gregorian Chant.
 
Prayer_Warrior said:
…Yes, we pray in tongues (which is, of course, scriptural and it happens to be the very way our Church began on Pentecost).
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I’m curious, are other people able to understand these prayers, as people were able to understand at Pentecost? I am told in general that the answer is “no”, although of course I don’t know the particular situation at your church.
  • Acts 2:4: And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5: Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.

6: And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.

7: And they were amazed and wondered, saying, "Are not all these who are speaking Galileans?

8: And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?

9: Par’thians and Medes and E’lamites and residents of Mesopota’mia, Judea and Cappado’cia, Pontus and Asia,

10: Phryg’ia and Pamphyl’ia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyre’ne, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,

11: Cretans and Arabians, we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God." *
 
VociMike said:
I’m curious, are other people able to understand these prayers, as people were able to understand at Pentecost? I am told in general that the answer is “no”, although of course I don’t know the particular situation at your church.
  • Acts 2:4: And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5: Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.

6: And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.

7: And they were amazed and wondered, saying, "Are not all these who are speaking Galileans?

8: And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?

9: Par’thians and Medes and E’lamites and residents of Mesopota’mia, Judea and Cappado’cia, Pontus and Asia,

10: Phryg’ia and Pamphyl’ia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyre’ne, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,

11: Cretans and Arabians, we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God." *
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Actually, yes that has happened. But I should clarify that that is what we call speaking in tongues and if one speaks in tongues there must be someone else there that understands and can translate. Praying in tongues is different…it is “unspeakable” and sounds like babble. This is where the Holy Spirit is helping us to pray as we ought. One reference in the Bible I am aware of is Rom 8:26: Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For we know not what we should pray for as we ought; but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings.
 
Karin said:
is it not likened to Praying the Rosary?
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I’m not sure what you mean, I’ve not heard it compared to praying the Rosary. Could you clarify? Off hand I would say that it could compare to praying the Rosary in two ways. One is that the same prayer “language” occurs repeatedly. And the second is that praying in tongues requires complete humility to God. But perhaps you had something else in mind…?
 
Prayer_Warrior said:
I’m not sure what you mean, I’ve not heard it compared to praying the Rosary. Could you clarify? Off hand I would say that it could compare to praying the Rosary in two ways. One is that the same prayer “language” occurs repeatedly. And the second is that praying in tongues requires complete humility to God. But perhaps you had something else in mind…?
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sorry this is what I meant…
This praise and thanksgiving may be in words, songs or through that way of praying without words known as ‘praying in tongues,’ which has been described by Fr Robert Faricy, S.J., as a form of contemplative prayer, and by others as similar to praying the rosary. This form of contemplative prayer follows a long Catholic contemplative tradition. St Teresa of Avila wrote of a form of prayer which she called “jubilation” — “a strange prayer I don’t understand.” She called it “a deep union of the faculties” and that “all [the soul’s] activity is directed to this praise (Interior Castle 6.6.10).
ccr.org.au/prayermeeting.html
 
VociMike said:
Quote=Kendy
The leader of the charismatic prayer group at my parish stands during the consecration at every mass. He’s tall and sticks out like a sore thumb, but he refuses to kneel.

The leaders of the charismatic faction at my church are also in the forefront of an ongoing battle here against kneeling.
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One particular post in this thread rang a bell. Since the neocatechumenals and charismatics exibit some of the same characteristics (although separate movements) —sometimes the neocatechumenals are mistaken for charismatics.

It may be—that what both of you are experiencing in your parishes are the effects of the neocatechumenals.

Just something to keep in mind.
 
st_lucy said:
These are the kind of quotes that make me cringe. At our church you wont see many families of under five (except mine I have only two children 😦 ) In fact there are some families of ten and eleven. BIG families all very knowledgeable of the faith.
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But you have no problem with traditional Catholics being called a “fad”. Why didn’t you correct that poster?
As for the amount of children at your church, great! Truly. But if one looks at the numbers from the traditional churches compared to the others, the traditional churches are growing. Your parish may be, but the movement in general is not.
I can only hope that I can one day not be so worried about what the rules are and just love Him in such an open and outward way as a child who loves his own parents.
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I am not saying that they don’t care about the rules, because they do and they know how important they are, but you know God wants our love too. !
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:eek:
When I parent, and being a woman who cannot have any more than the two I’ve got, I raise them to understand that there are rules in life.
Honestly, it doesn’t bother me at all that prayer groups get together and used whatever prayer postures they want. Shorkling, laying prostrate, handholding, or swaying, go for it.

However, the liturgy has guideline that are to be followed.
Just like the Ten commandments are not suggestions.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
I don’t know, Netmil(name removed by moderator), it’s been approved by two Vicars of Christ. Again, I’m not advocating for it, but neither am I going to say that the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Trinity, cannot do what it pleases Him to do (esp. in light of two papal approvals), if it’s Him that’s doing it.
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Hello!

There is a big difference between a Movement being approved and certain specific “Movements” being approved.

The Catholic Charasmatic Movement being approved does not mean that everything they do is approved, of course. This movement was intended to edify the Church.

Does anyone know if it in fact has done so? Or has it led many out of the Church into the Evangelical Charasmatic Churches that are really on fire with the Spirit?

I often ask and never get answers about particulars in this movement.

Who is qualifyed to translate these tongues? How do they get their credentials? Has there ever been any prophecy? Have there been documented cases of healings? (on that some have given me names of books to read- I want offical documents not someones book loaded with tons of observations) Personal observations then pop up all over the thread, and not once has anyone pointed to me anything documented, its all hearsay.

Praying in tongues pops up then. No, I am not addressing praying in tongues.

I am addressing speaking in tongues. Who is a Liason? Do they have to be Catholic? What do they do? How do they get their credentials?

Then I ask about Healing Masses. No one ever gives me a straight answer on that whole business.

If people want to be involved with this that is their business, fine with me.

But I have some real concerns about it and prefer to avoid it. Will I be able to is the question?

I should have the right to chose whether this is something I want to be mixed up in or not. Many people lived their entire lives never hearing about it or being affected by it in the Catholic Church and I ought to be as lucky as they were too.
 
When I parent, and being a woman who cannot have any more than the two I’ve got, I raise them to understand that there are rules in life.
Honestly, it doesn’t bother me at all that prayer groups get together and used whatever prayer postures they want. Shorkling, laying prostrate, handholding, or swaying, go for it.
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However, the liturgy has guideline that are to be followed.
Just like the Ten commandments are not suggestions.
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I completely agree.
 
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Damascus:
Hello!

There is a big difference between a Movement being approved and certain specific “Movements” being approved.

The Catholic Charasmatic Movement being approved does not mean that everything they do is approved, of course. This movement was intended to edify the Church.

Does anyone know if it in fact has done so? Or has it led many out of the Church into the Evangelical Charasmatic Churches that are really on fire with the Spirit?

I often ask and never get answers about particulars in this movement.

Who is qualifyed to translate these tongues? How do they get their credentials? Has there ever been any prophecy? Have there been documented cases of healings? (on that some have given me names of books to read- I want offical documents not someones book loaded with tons of observations) Personal observations then pop up all over the thread, and not once has anyone pointed to me anything documented, its all hearsay.

Praying in tongues pops up then. No, I am not addressing praying in tongues.

I am addressing speaking in tongues. Who is a Liason? Do they have to be Catholic? What do they do? How do they get their credentials?

Then I ask about Healing Masses. No one ever gives me a straight answer on that whole business.

If people want to be involved with this that is their business, fine with me.

But I have some real concerns about it and prefer to avoid it. Will I be able to is the question?

I should have the right to chose whether this is something I want to be mixed up in or not. Many people lived their entire lives never hearing about it or being affected by it in the Catholic Church and I ought to be as lucky as they were too.​

The only thing that I will add to your post is—all the healings that I am familiar with—have not been the result of charismatic healing Masses and/or people laying hands on each other. They have been healed thru the intercession of our Holy Mother or a Saint. People thru out centuries have been healed without the charismatic movement.
 
Damascus said:
In silence, we hear. Many a Saint could cut through all the fluff by examining things in silence.

I am no saint, but I’ll take their cue and hear what is being told to me in this silence.👍
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Sometimes silence speaks volumes!
 
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