Catholic Charismatic Renewal

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condescending
stop reading things into the few words I’ve written- Traditional is the moniker that other people have applied to these spiritualities. I’m just using a term that has been bandied about on this thread.NO judgment on my part. I find your attitude incredible antagonistic and arrogant.
Just responding to what I read (into) the previous post.
I’m only defending that I have a spiritual life with varied practices and consider it offensive for people to have a tone of ‘that is not enough’.
It like your saying"My faith is perfect so are My spiritualities".
Not at all what I’m saying.
I’m defending that I have a truly deep spirituality and I don’t have to be in a charismatic community to have that. The tone from others seems to be ‘I became charismatic and I did all these wonderful, spirit-growing activities’, as if to say not being charismatic, you’ll miss out on deep spirituality.
Are you retrospective at all ,do you ever question if you are really as right as you believe you are?
Have you been talking to my wife? 🙂 kidding
As it happens in email and chat, I think you’ve misread my tone.
I would consider it more defensive than antagonistic.
As far as gathering together to speak tongues together that’s not why we gather
This seems different than my perception.
Granted my perception could possibly be off a little for your case, but I do not believe it is otherwise.
we usually gather for Mass , or healing service or (horror of horrors) regular non tonguey prayer.
This is what my parish is for, why do I need a separate community in my parish for this?
Having never spoken in tongues myself I don’t understand why people get so crazed about folks speaking in tongues.
Because I don’t believe you show up at a gather to receive gifts from the Holy Spirit.
As well meaning as these ‘speakers’ are, I honestly do not believe they are speaking another language. I think it is gibberish.

The good thing about the charismatic movement is that it is one more way for non-Catholic Christians to find their way to the Church and the sacraments.
If you want to pray the Rosary in the middle of Fifth Ave in front of Tiffany’s-why would that irritate me?
It shouldn’t. It isn’t something that existing in early times, went away, then came back about only one hundred years ago… at least en mass in a gathering.
I’m truly baffled why the ire? Why the hostility?
ire… hostility … well … I see it as a whole community of people saying “Catholic is not enough”. Our faith is SO rich, SO deep, SO involved … why is speaking in tongues such a draw for people to join a ‘community’ apart from the parish. To me, it’s divisive.
What traditional devotions? Do the go all the way back to the apostles? Medieval traditional devotionals only?
I’ve already mentioned the timing of the protestants bringing back ‘tongues’ in large groups.
Or can Devotions grow into a tradition. case in point- The divine Mercy Chaplet.Modern devotion in a traditional style…So if i don’t do devotions the way you believe they should be done- or choose a less traditional devotion that means I lack faith?
Yes devotions can grow into traditions.
The Divine Mercy Chaplet is simply a prayer.
This is very different than claiming to speak in tongues.
Are you the arbiter of who’s faith is real?
Of course I’m no arbiter. Silly question.
I’ve stated that I don’t believe these people that gather in large groups are actually speaking in tongues.
It is only my opinion.
Please don’t say you speak for the Church! That would be more arrogant still.
I’m speaking for all Catholics that also are questioning the authenticity of the tongues being spoken in these large groups but are not of the personality to speak up. I’d be really upset to find out that people spoke in tongues during a mass, considering that to be completely inappropriate.

I’d rather not see an undercurrent of a ‘community’ within my parish as I think it detracts from the entire parish growing together.

michel
 
i say let’s have a Christ movement!
it is simple all you have to do is submit to Him after all He is you Lord and Savior?
‘all you have to do’?

It’s the narrow road.

I’m sure by ‘submitting to Him’ you mean doing ALL things (not just one) that Jesus said to do.

Have faith (Rom 3:28, John 3:16, 1 John 4:15)
forgive the sins of others (Matt 6:14-15)
care for one’s family (1 Tim 5:8)
feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and imprisoned (Matt 25:31-46)
keep the Commandments (Matt 19:17 and 1 John 2:3-4)
love my brother (1 John 2:10)
deny ourselves and pick up our cross daily (Luke 9:23)
do the will of the Father (Matt 7:21)
eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man (John 6:51-58)
give a return for the talents the Master has given us (Matt 25:14-30)
be baptized (John 3:3-5, 1 Ptr 3:20-21)
confess our sins (1 John 1:9)…
all by the grace of God.

michel
 
one thing i’ve learned in the recent months, i am not God and i can not change the minds or hearts of people so i’ve learned not to get into debates with individuals explaining my stance on what i believe not that i can change but with the hope that God may enlighten those as well as myself with truth, the entire charismatic movement is an inward expression, it’s about self vs. Christianity which an outward expression toward others, the example of Christ is what we should strive to follow and my Lord was far from charismatic, therefore if one is in charismatic church gathering and they feel good, i say good, i guess. but don’t mind me here i’m babbling. don’t take it personal.
 
‘all you have to do’?

It’s the narrow road.

I’m sure by ‘submitting to Him’ you mean doing ALL things (not just one) that Jesus said to do.

Have faith (Rom 3:28, John 3:16, 1 John 4:15)
forgive the sins of others (Matt 6:14-15)
care for one’s family (1 Tim 5:8)
feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and imprisoned (Matt 25:31-46)
keep the Commandments (Matt 19:17 and 1 John 2:3-4)
love my brother (1 John 2:10)
deny ourselves and pick up our cross daily (Luke 9:23)
do the will of the Father (Matt 7:21)
eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man (John 6:51-58)
give a return for the talents the Master has given us (Matt 25:14-30)
be baptized (John 3:3-5, 1 Ptr 3:20-21)
confess our sins (1 John 1:9)…
all by the grace of God.

michel
i guess but that is why i submit to His will that He may teach me His ways and all scripture you quoted is truth to His will now can i do “all things”? no.
 
IFaith is believing without proof.
I don’t need the proof, I have faith.

michel
Just a note to suggest that faith is actually different from “believing without proof”.

The writer of Hebrews defines faith as “the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen” (Heb 11:1). To illustrate what he means, he gives several examples and in almost every example focuses on what the person did, not what propositions he believed: “Abel offered to God a sacrifice”, “Noah…built an ark”, “Abraham obeyed”, “Abraham…offered up Isaac”, “Isaac blessed Jacob”, “Moses…refused to be known as the son of Pharoah’s daughter”, and so on.

Clearly the “realization of hope” and the “evidence of things not seen” is what we do; that is, our actions. We act, trusting God that whatever the consequences may be, things will somehow work out for good (Romans 8:28), even if we never see it.

To put this another way, faith is not believing the right things about God – rather, it is doing the right things for God. No doubt there are people who believe all kinds of wrong things about God but who nevertheless have true faith because they entrust their lives to Him and do the things that He calls them to do (see CCC 839-841 for the Church’s teaching about non-Christians, for example).

As an aside, you may note that getting the definition of faith right completely resolves the old “faith-versus-works” debate! And that was actually St James’ point in James 2:14-19.
 
Just a note to suggest that faith is actually different from “believing without proof”.

The writer of Hebrews defines faith as “the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen” (Heb 11:1). To illustrate what he means, he gives several examples and in almost every example focuses on what the person did, not what propositions he believed: “Abel offered to God a sacrifice”, “Noah…built an ark”, “Abraham obeyed”, “Abraham…offered up Isaac”, “Isaac blessed Jacob”, “Moses…refused to be known as the son of Pharoah’s daughter”, and so on.

Clearly the “realization of hope” and the “evidence of things not seen” is what we do; that is, our actions. We act, trusting God that whatever the consequences may be, things will somehow work out for good (Romans 8:28), even if we never see it.

To put this another way, faith is not believing the right things about God – rather, it is doing the right things for God. No doubt there are people who believe all kinds of wrong things about God but who nevertheless have true faith because they entrust their lives to Him and do the things that He calls them to do (see CCC 839-841 for the Church’s teaching about non-Christians, for example).

As an aside, you may note that getting the definition of faith right completely resolves the old “faith-versus-works” debate! And that was actually St James’ point in James 2:14-19.
Fantastic note!! Thank you!

michel
 
This threaded discussion seems to be dying and that is probably for the best, and not that I want to start up another argument, but a friend of mind, a Protestant doing missionary work in Norway, wrote to me an experience she had this weekend at a charismatic church her group was working with. I found it ironic, considering that we have been throwing around ideas about the Charismatic Renewal Movement over the past few days, so I have decided to post her experience.

The friend I am speaking about is Lutheran and while not into the Charismatic Movement, she respects it for what it is and has no problem believing in what it offers those that are into it. At this Church however, the minister approaches the pulpit and asks that anyone who has not been baptized into the Holy Spirit to come forward. Not wanting to draw attention to herself, she remained where she was. A few people moved forward when the minister ordered everyone that remained behind to start praying in tongues. He then stated that church staff will be walking around examining everyone making sure they are praying in tongues, if not, they will take you to the front of the church and pray over you to receive the gift of tongues. My friend then put her head down and began praying inconspicuously as she does not pray in tongues, but did not want to be singled out by this minister. Suddenly, everyone bursts out into a violent range. People started screaming, knocking people over, my friend got slammed in the head, etc. Of course, to everyone of the Charismatics there, this was a great blessing, as the Holy Spirit was seen as being very active that day.

Now, I am not saying that this happens at all Charismatic Churches, but something tells me that if it did, the conclusion would be the same. So I ask anyone who cares to respond, how can this possibly be seen as a Grace from God and not demonic possession?

Anybody?
 
HI, I have posted before on this and I have to say I have never attended a church that was charismatic or mass that was charismatic I attended a weekly prayer meeting where no one was forced to pray in tongues and not everyone did, I did not. It was a prayer meeting and actually when reading the bible I have found scripture that pretty much describes what we did in our weekly meeting.
Corinthians 14;16-40
Otherwise, if you pronounce a blessing (with) the spirit, how shall one who holds the place of the uninstructed say the “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?
17
For you may be giving thanks very well, but the other is not built up.
18
I give thanks to God that I speak in tongues more than any of you,
19
but in the church I would rather speak five words with my mind, so as to instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
20
7 Brothers, stop being childish in your thinking. In respect to evil be like infants, but in your thinking be mature.
21
It is written in the law: “By people speaking strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, and even so they will not listen to me, says the Lord.”
22
Thus, tongues are a sign not for those who believe but for unbelievers, whereas prophecy is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.
23
8 So if the whole church meets in one place and everyone speaks in tongues, and then uninstructed people or unbelievers should come in, will they not say that you are out of your minds?
24
But if everyone is prophesying, and an unbeliever or uninstructed person should come in, he will be convinced by everyone and judged by everyone,
25
and the secrets of his heart will be disclosed, and so he will fall down and worship God, declaring, “God is really in your midst.”
26
9 So what is to be done, brothers? When you assemble, one has a psalm, another an instruction, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Everything should be done for building up.
27
If anyone speaks in a tongue, let it be two or at most three, and each in turn, and one should interpret.
28
But if there is no interpreter, the person should keep silent in the church and speak to himself and to God.
29
Two or three prophets should speak, and the others discern.
30
But if a revelation is given to another person sitting there, the first one should be silent.
31
For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged.
32
Indeed, the spirits of prophets are under the prophets’ control,
33
since he is not the God of disorder but of peace. As in all the churches of the holy ones, 10
34
women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says.
35
But if they want to learn anything, they should ask their husbands at home. For it is improper for a woman to speak in the church.
36
Did the word of God go forth from you? Or has it come to you alone?
37
If anyone thinks that he is a prophet or a spiritual person, he should recognize that what I am writing to you is a commandment of the Lord.
38
If anyone does not acknowledge this, he is not acknowledged.
39
So, (my) brothers, strive eagerly to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues,

:shrug:I am really not sure what to say about women speaking in the church because we do this now as far as woman being able to read during mass. 😊

There is so much in the bible on speaking in tongues,(if that is your concern with charismatics) I understand everyone’s worries as for the church and people being led astray by false teaching, but I have to say We ARE given in the bible weapons and armor to know the truth. God tells us test the spirits 1 John 4. I think we should be cautious of any movement especially the kind of church your friend had an experience with, was this even a catholic church? What she experienced was not right at all. We had people in our group tell of bad experiences in different groups they had attended that were not good, so they did not go back. As for the prayer group I went to it was fruitful and full of Gods love. I from my own experience would say go to your church ask your priest if there is a charismatic group you are thinking about joining. If it is a fruitful group the parish would know. This particular group I went to had I two priests and one man in seminary come out of it. It has been a group for at least 7 years from what I understand. I am defending this because I believe as with anything there is good and bad that is why we always be close to our Lord Jesus through sacraments, prayer, and reading scripture. In this way we know right from wrong and good from bad. But not all charismatic Catholics are bad just as not all Catholic priests are bad (from what I read from non-believers or those who have fallen away they blame all priests for the sex-abuse) We have to look at each experience and each group individually don’t knock the whole movement from what I understand they brought back to life a few churches in my home state (RI) when it began in the late 60’s early 70’s. Some of the same people who went to my meeting were at the meetings back in the 70’s when my mom went and they are devout Catholics who attend daily mass and live every day for the Lord.

How can it be a grace from God and not a demonic possession? It depends on who is leading the group I would say, it depends on whether the group is in accord with God, truly and honestly there to build up His church. Or it could be led by those who are self seeking and not in accord with God and the church. That’s what I feel;) just my opinion.😊
SORRY SO LONG!!!
 
I think we should be cautious of any movement especially the kind of church your friend had an experience with, was this even a catholic church?
No, it was an Evangelical Charismatic Church.

Thanks for your reply. 🙂
 
This threaded discussion seems to be dying and that is probably for the best, and not that I want to start up another argument, but a friend of mind, a Protestant doing missionary work in Norway, wrote to me an experience she had this weekend at a charismatic church her group was working with. I found it ironic, considering that we have been throwing around ideas about the Charismatic Renewal Movement over the past few days, so I have decided to post her experience.

The friend I am speaking about is Lutheran and while not into the Charismatic Movement, she respects it for what it is and has no problem believing in what it offers those that are into it. At this Church however, the minister approaches the pulpit and asks that anyone who has not been baptized into the Holy Spirit to come forward. Not wanting to draw attention to herself, she remained where she was. A few people moved forward when the minister ordered everyone that remained behind to start praying in tongues. He then stated that church staff will be walking around examining everyone making sure they are praying in tongues, if not, they will take you to the front of the church and pray over you to receive the gift of tongues. My friend then put her head down and began praying inconspicuously as she does not pray in tongues, but did not want to be singled out by this minister. Suddenly, everyone bursts out into a violent range. People started screaming, knocking people over, my friend got slammed in the head, etc. Of course, to everyone of the Charismatics there, this was a great blessing, as the Holy Spirit was seen as being very active that day.

Now, I am not saying that this happens at all Charismatic Churches, but something tells me that if it did, the conclusion would be the same. So I ask anyone who cares to respond, how can this possibly be seen as a Grace from God and not demonic possession?

Anybody?
:eek: Let’s just say that I would be willing to bet that this IS NOT what the Catholic Chuch has in mind when it speaks of the Charismatic movement. 😉
 
A few people moved forward when the minister ordered everyone that remained behind to start praying in tongues. He then stated that church staff will be walking around examining everyone making sure they are praying in tongues, if not, they will take you to the front of the church and pray over you to receive the gift of tongues. My friend then put her head down and began praying inconspicuously as she does not pray in tongues, but did not want to be singled out by this minister. Suddenly, everyone bursts out into a violent range. People started screaming, knocking people over, my friend got slammed in the head, etc. Of course, to everyone of the Charismatics there, this was a great blessing, as the Holy Spirit was seen as being very active that day.

Now, I am not saying that this happens at all Charismatic Churches, but something tells me that if it did, the conclusion would be the same. So I ask anyone who cares to respond, how can this possibly be seen as a Grace from God and not demonic possession?

Anybody?
Well, this is why I wholeheartedly agree with our parish priest (referring to some charismatic movements) when he said “not all spirits are Holy!”

I went to a “Life in the Spirit” seminar years ago when I knew I had a gift of the Holy Spirit, but it was not speaking in tongues. I knew that everyone’s gift(s) was different. I went there feeling invigorated and excited. Weeks later, I left uncomfortable and disenchanted. It was the Catholic version of Life in the Spirit, but even then, everyone, and I mean everyone expected one to speak in tongues, even if you had another gift from the Holy Spirit. I was told that everyone could speak in tongues. I said that I don’t think I was one of them and was very happy with the gift I already had, but would certainly not be opposed if the Spirit chose me to speak in tongues.

I was the only one at the last meeting, when hands were laid upon everyone, who did not speak in tongues. I tried, I really did. But I left so embarrassed because I knew that the people were thinking I closed my mind and was not cooperating with the Holy Spirit. I think I was the only one who knew that was not the case, but I just kept my chin up and let it seem like they didn’t bother me. They did.

I have stayed away from charismatic movements since then, even though I believe everyone either already has or potentially will have a gift from the Holy Spirit. I know the Bible states that not all men have the ability to speak in tongues, so I don’t know where all the people at the seminar got their idea. Those people were good people. Some were obviously obsessed with the whole idea and were terribly outspoken (and in my opinion outright wrong), but others took their gifts with humility which I am sure pleased God.

My own gift was publicly demonstrated at the seminar (and is referred to below in the passage of 1 Cor 14:12-22). I was not flippant about it nor did I overexaggerate it. But it simply was not good enough for everyone there, who’s only goal it was to speak in tongues. They didn’t seem to want any other gift. So I am sure that some of them did not get this gift, and if they did, it was not from the Holy Spirit, since their minds were not open to any other gifts.
12 So with you, as you are eager to have spiritual powers, aim to be rich in those which build up the community. 13 That is why anybody who speaks in a tongue must pray that he may be given the interpretation. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit may be praying but my mind derives no fruit from it. 15 What then? I shall pray with the spirit, but I shall pray with the mind as well: I shall sing praises with the spirit and I shall sing praises with the mind as well. 16 Otherwise, if you say your blessing only with the spirit, how is the uninitiated person going to answer ‘Amen’ to your thanksgiving, without understanding what you are saying? 17 You may be making your thanksgiving well, but the other person is not built up at all. 18 I thank God that I speak with tongues more than any of you; 19 all the same, when I am in the assembly I would rather say five words with my mind, to instruct others as well, than ten thousand words in a tongue. 20 Brothers, do not remain children in your thinking; infants in wickedness-agreed, but in your thinking grown-ups. 21 It says in the written Law: In strange tongues and in a foreign language I will talk to this nation, and even so they will refuse to listen, says the Lord. 22 So then, strange languages are significant not for believers, but for unbelievers; whereas on the other hand, prophesying is not for unbelievers, but for believers.
 
The passage in the Bible I was referring to about not all men having the ability to speak in tongues comes from 1 Cor 12:27-31. In this passage he asks a number of questions, all of which he has the answer “no” in mind.
27 Now Christ’s body is yourselves, each of you with a part to play in the whole. 28 And those whom God has appointed in the Church are, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers; after them, miraculous powers, then gifts of healing, helpful acts, guidance, various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all of them apostles? Or all prophets? Or all teachers? Or all miracle-workers? 30 Do all have the gifts of healing? Do all of them speak in tongues and all interpret them? 31 Set your mind on the higher gifts. And now I am going to put before you the best way of all.
Then he goes on to speak about love, wich is the greatest gift. I think not tongues, but Love, should be the gift everyone strives for. For I believe it is one that everyone of Christ’s Body can posess.
 
Now, I am not saying that this happens at all Charismatic Churches, but something tells me that if it did, the conclusion would be the same. So I ask anyone who cares to respond, how can this possibly be seen as a Grace from God and not demonic possession?

Anybody?
Well since you asked…
It is demonic possession. At least that particular instance.

Here is where the issue that I see arises, particularly given the last few posts.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit are exactly that, gifts. They cannot be turned on and off at command, they can only be accepted when they come.

When someone does try to force these gifts, they open themselves to demonic attack.
 
HI, Vz71, I completely agree. These are gifts, I never felt the urge nor gift to pray in tongues not everyone receives the same gifts, and if we were to try to force them as you said we would be going against Gods will for us. Not trusting that what He gives is enough. I am not sure about laying of the hands in my experience I have had two priests pray over me invoking the Holy Spirit, I should also mention once someone did lay hands over me but I was not opening myself up because it didn’t feel right at the time. It felt awkward not coming from a priest.
At the prayer meeting we would be prayed over but it wasn’t an invoking of the Holy Spirit as in the laying of hands like I have seen say on t.v., It was someone praying over you holding your shoulder and you would pray together. I was never knocked down to the ground nor did I ever see that.
I urge caution but again pray for discernment. If someone says something not in accord with church teaching and you are in your full armor of God you will know, and you can try to tell the person there error or in this case get the heck out of there. Go see a priest to be prayed for. God Bless
Praying with lack of faith and love, is like sewing with no thread
 
The passage in the Bible I was referring to about not all men having the ability to speak in tongues comes from 1 Cor 12:27-31. In this passage he asks a number of questions, all of which he has the answer “no” in mind.

Then he goes on to speak about love, wich is the greatest gift. I think not tongues, but Love, should be the gift everyone strives for. For I believe it is one that everyone of Christ’s Body can posess.
Thank you Snerticus for your sharing. Your contribution here, is perhaps the most significant to this entire thread.
 
Well since you asked…
It is demonic possession. At least that particular instance.

Here is where the issue that I see arises, particularly given the last few posts.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit are exactly that, gifts. They cannot be turned on and off at command, they can only be accepted when they come.

When someone does try to force these gifts, they open themselves to demonic attack.
It’s funny then, isn’t it? That the Church warns us to the point of condemnation over using things like Tarot Cards, Ouija boards, etc. for fear that these things may open doors to demonic experiences or at least exhibits a failing sense of faith. Yet, it would seem that no one here (or perhaps no one remaining LOL) would disagree that certain Charismatic operations can open this same door to evil.

Would it not be logical, then, that since we could reduce the Charismatic phenomenon to having a certain relationship to the occult, that it would be far better for a Catholic to be content with only the Sacraments? Considering that the Sacraments are unquestionably from God every time, none pose a danger to a person’s soul, not one “spirit” need be tested, and the fullness of Grace from the Holy Spirit is present within each Sacrament, that the Sacraments are indeed enough?

Again, I ask this honestly without hope of invoking an argument. I really wish to understand why so many need this Charismatic Movement when we all seem to agree that it has so much potential for disaster.
 
Quite honestly, I think that people that once had been interested in the occult - such as myself a long, long, long time ago - would be interested in this, as they are supernatural gifts, kind of like “new age” stuff.

In a way, I’m glad I felt uncomfortable with my charismatic experience, as I think I would have fallen back on some of those old beliefs and tried to reconcile them with my Catholicism. It is my belief that in my case, anyway, God had diverted me from possible disaster.

I would assume, though, that it might bring others closer to the Church. This would only be determined by the individual’s own experiences, background and beliefs. God certainly has the ability to use one person’s negative experience as another’s positive.

You know, I’ve just got to thinking. The original apostles and disciples may have had charisms from the Spirit, but they also had everything else the Church has as well. And their charisms didn’t seem to affect their knowledge, beliefs and practices from the rest of the Church. It therefore seems to me, that joining a movement which puts more importance on one thing would be counter-productive, at least spiritually. I would think that what is needed is to incorporate that movement within already established norms to the point that it does not “stick out”, but rather enhance what we already have.

I hope that was understandable… Just MHO… 😊
 
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