Catholic Church and freemasonary?

[gamewell45]

1. In addition, Freemasonry has a longstanding history of un-Christian gender-separation and (in it’s American variants) of racial segregationism.

The Knights of Columbus also have a history of “gender separation” as you call it. They do not permit women to join their ranks.

 

[gamewell45]

Some quasi-Masonic organizations exist, such as the Odd-Fellows, Moose and Elk lodges, and so forth.

There is no such thing as quasi-Masonic organizations as you call it. They may have some similarities to Freemasonry but have nothing to do with it.

 

[gamewell45]

If Peter Clatworthy has re-imagined the Masonic ritual in such a way that his ‘Free Masonrie’ avoids all of the issues of classic British and/or Continental Freemasonry–it is possible his organization would fall outside the proscriptions of the Catholic Church. Nonetheless, one might well be guilty of scandal and of an ‘appearance of evil’, for which reason I for one would be reluctant to associate myself with the so-called ‘Order of Free Masonrie’.

Your not missing much regarding to so-called “Order of Free Masonrie” and their little coterie of members playing Freemasonry. To me it would appear in my opinion that they are attempting to “launder” or “sanitize” their 4 year old group so the Roman Catholic Church will allow their members to join. Nice try.

Mainstream Masonry acknowledges that the Roman Catholic Church forbids membership in our fraternity. As I’ve mentioned in other posts, in my jurisdiction, we have plenty of Roman Catholics who are Freemasons and as far as we’re concerned its an issue between the church and their members.

 

[John_oxios]

No, you are a bigot because you refuse to see sense when the essential difference between pure original religious Anglo-Saxon Free Masonrie and the Moderns self-started version, “a naturalistic religion” and “a product of the enlightenment” which is a fact of history.

That is simply stubborness borne out of blind prejudice and so you fit the definition to a tee.Now this event IS a fact of history.

Its When you have to result to insults, that you have begun to realize your losing the discussion.

When the legend become a fact print the legend? I’m sorry but the four yr. old legend of Free Masonrie of the Celi De, 'Celtic Church" hasn’t reached this continent yet. Maybe next year???

Okay so your four yr old ‘revived’ Freemasonrie oganization can’t find its mommy? So yuo started your own charter? Sounds like your still lost to the RCC to me! And that to me IS a Fact of History?

God bless,
John

 

[John_oxios]

No, you are a bigot because you refuse to see sense when the essential difference between pure original religious Anglo-Saxon Free Masonrie and the Moderns self-started version, “a naturalistic religion” and “a product of the enlightenment” which is a fact of history.

That is simply stubborness borne out of blind prejudice and so you fit the definition to a tee. Now this event IS a fact of history.

Okay, so? Moderns self staring version?? I don’t see the sense of association by name, if you wanted your organization to be accepted by Roman Catholics? Why call it 'Free Masonrie?? Where’s the sense in that??
And why is it so important for the RCC to accept your “moderns self-started version?”
Write the Pope, maybe if what you say rings true… He’ll give ya a special depensation, may be even an apology for excluding ROman Catholics from joining your ranks over the Las Four Years?? I doubt though by not recognizing the Pope as the Leader of the Catholic Church, will the RCC ever acknowledge yours!
God bless,
John

 

[John_oxios]

Take the blindfold off and the earplugs out and you will stand a chance.

bigot: obstinate believer who is intolerant of others.* (SOURCE: Oxford English Dictionary)*

Hello PeterC,
As a separate unit/ chapter/ self made fraternal order do you use
"Masonic ritual? Do you make use of the architectural symbolism of the tools of the medieval operative stonemason?
Do you as fremasonries , as Freemasons, and as speculative masons (meaning philosophical building rather than actual building), use this symbolism to teach moral and ethical lessons of the principles of “Brotherly Love, Relief, and Truth” ?

If it looks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck,smells and tastes like duck… are trying to say it isn’t necessarily a duck?

God bless,
John

 

[John_oxios]

We accept the authority of the Pope, for Romans Catholics,

I have already dealt with the question of the fundamental difference between pure and original Anglo-Saxon Free Masonrie (constituted AD926) and the self-created assembly of the Moderns, The Grand Lodge of London (constituted 1723), “a product of the Enlightenment”.

If it was not different, then it would not have needed a new constitution.

SOmebody ought to alert the web search engine "Ask.com’ on this one, becasue when you search ‘freemasonrie,’ all the sites they give you is Freemason or freemasonry.
They all claim some secret of the Temple building era of Solomon, and yet they began what 16th century? Wouldn’t that leave St.Patrick out?? As you so claim he was, by the ‘after 12th century’ stain glass, you presented as factual Proof he was?

To believe that I would have to be unaware, even uninformed.

Anybody want to get dibbs om the sale of the Bklyn Bridge? Its been in my family for a hundred yrs.
I got pictures of my Great Uncles who came to N.Y. in 1909, and of my grandfather and my father before me right at the foot of the bridge.

I am also a direct descendant of Peter Minuet whom we all know bought Manhattan Island for trinkets ($24.00 whole dollars worth) from the local inhabitants in Inwood park, Manhattan. I have Pics of me and my family sitting upon the very rock the transaction took place.

hmmm…
:hypno: I could share that specific location with you and all the secrets of that rock, if you join my lodge and pay your dues in advance.:hypno:

God bless,
John

 

[PeterClatworthy]

There is no such thing as quasi-Masonic organizations as you call it. They may have some similarities to Freemasonry but have nothing to do with it.

**quasi-: **seemingly but not really. (SOURCE: Oxford English Dictionary)

 

[PeterClatworthy]

SOmebody ought to alert the web search engine "Ask.com’ on this one, becasue when you search ‘freemasonrie,’ all the sites they give you is Freemason or freemasonry.
They all claim some secret of the Temple building era of Solomon, and yet they began what 16th century? Wouldn’t that leave St.Patrick out?? As you so claim he was, by the ‘after 12th century’ stain glass, you presented as factual Proof he was?

To believe that I would have to be unaware, even uninformed.

Anybody want to get dibbs om the sale of the Bklyn Bridge? Its been in my family for a hundred yrs.
I got pictures of my Great Uncles who came to N.Y. in 1909, and of my grandfather and my father before me right at the foot of the bridge.

I am also a direct descendant of Peter Minuet whom we all know bought Manhattan Island for trinkets ($24.00 whole dollars worth) from the local inhabitants in Inwood park, Manhattan. I have Pics of me and my family sitting upon the very rock the transaction took place.

hmmm…
:hypno: I could share that specific location with you and all the secrets of that rock, if you join my lodge and pay your dues in advance.:hypno:

God bless,
John

I have a similar background except my family have even closer connections with the Abbey at Armagh.

Oh, I realise that you are pushing you own bigoted agenda and so I will save my money thank you very much. I have no interest in “symbolic” freemasonry, the product of the Enlightenment because I am a Free Mason for religious reasons.

 

[John_oxios]

I have a similar background except my family have even closer connections with the Abbey at Armagh.

Oh, I realise that you are pushing you own bigoted agenda and so I will save my money thank you very much. I have no interest in “symbolic” freemasonry, the product of the Enlightenment because I am a Free Mason for religious reasons.

Which are no religious reasons at all!!

 

[PeterClatworthy]

Which are no religious reasons at all!!

Now we know what a quasi-Catholic is.

 

[PeterClatworthy]

Somebody ought to alert the web search engine "Ask.com’ on this one, becasue when you search ‘freemasonrie,’ all the sites they give you is Freemason or freemasonry.

They all claim some secret of the Temple building era of Solomon, and yet they began what 16th century? Wouldn’t that leave St.Patrick out.

That is EXACTLY my point John. I am afraid that we are not on the same wave length.

The Moderns have NO connection with Free Masonrie. It is, in their own words “a product of the Enlightenment”. It did not exist, in any form, prior to 1723 which was when Dr James Anderson issued his first Book of Constitutions on behalf of The Grand Lodge of London.

“No records of any of the “Four Old Lodges” have been made known of a date prior to the London Grand Lodge era …” (SOURCE: Freemasonry in the Early 1600’s and 1700’s by W.J. Hughan, Leicester, 25th January 1904)

 

[PeterClatworthy]

As this thread has gone quiet let me place on record our (The Grand Lodge of All England’s) approach to the Catholic Church and the Moderns system of freemasonry “a product of the Enlightenment”.

“The Enlightenment” represents a scientific and political approach which excludes the need for Deity. That was, after all, its core philosophy. It is, therefore fundamentally anti-Christian, anti-Catholic, anti-Islamic and anti-Judaic.

The philosophy of “Deus sive natura” - God and Nature - Nature and God - one and the same - indivisible and indistinguishable one from the other is a straight forward denial of the Christian God and the Creation.

One of the features of the 18th century was the development of a critical examination of those previously accepted doctrines through the medium of rationalism. A feature of this was that institutions (both political and religious) became subject to this critical approach.

Those countries, notably England, France and America, within which the Enlightenment was particularly well founded adopted a view of the Papacy which very much reduced the status of the Pope and Roman Catholicism.

The Papacy of the 18th century and today, claims that the Pope holds the keys of Heaven and that the Catholic Church itself is an institution with a Divine mission.

Because the Enlightenment approaches the religious and scientific doctrines and institutions in such a critical manner, it can hardly be seen as anything other than anti-Catholic.

In this respect, the Enlightenment was clearly of a revolutionary nature and its product, the Moderns system of freemasonry, is clearly anti-Catholic, anti-Christian.

For EXACTLY the same reasons, it is also anti-Judaic and anti-Islamic. Of this there can be no doubt, and the reason for the ban.

 

[The_Templar]

That being said they are a group that allows any and all beliefs to join therefore they don’t believe in a single Truth like Catholics or Orthodox should believe in. This is why the Popes and Patriarchs have condemned Masonry-

I suppose then using your reasoning, college fraternities, insurance companies, fitness centers, the armed forces, charity organizations, and many more should be condemned by the Pope? After all, there are literally tens of thousands of groups who permit people from all faiths to join their ranks.

A common misconception is Masonry ‘accepts’ all religions as valid. This couldn’t be further from the truth. It accepts members from all religions.

 

[John_oxios]

Now we know what a quasi-Catholic is.

Again with the name callling? Tilting at windmillls are we??

Quasi: a combining form meaning “resembling,” “having some, but not all of the features of,” used in the formation of compound words: quasi-definition; quasi-monopoly; quasi-official; quasi-scientific.

You are calling me a quasi Catholic, because I don’t accept you’re okay to join your so -called Quasi free Masonrie? After all you resemble free masonry? but your not like those other free Masons?? Now That’s quasi by any definition!!

Take it up the Magisterium, convince them it’s okay ! And then I probably wouldn’t have the time to join your fake (after all your not like them) ‘free masonrie’ anyway, I spend a lot of my spare time @ RC Church. Which is Genuine authentic and real Catholicism!! All we got to give that is truly our own is our time,

God bless,
John

 

[John_oxios]

QUOTE=PeterClatworthy;6145453]A

The Papacy of the 18th century and today, claims that the Pope holds the keys of Heaven and that the Catholic Church itself is an institution with a Divine mission

.

The Roman Catholic Church has always interpreted Scripture as the Head Bishop (Later called Pope) is the successor of Peter At Christ Church in Rome.

Christ to Peter:
Mat 16:19 I** will give you the keys **of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

So when Peter died, they followed Scripture to the letter:

Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, ‘Let his habitation become desolate, and let there be no one to live in it’; and 'His office let another take.

Is there another biblical precedent for this? You betcha:
Num 27:15 Moses said to the LORD,

Num 27:16 "Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, appoint a man over the congregation,

Num 27:17 who shall go out before them and come in before them, who shall lead them out and bring them in; that the congregation of the LORD may not be as sheep which have no shepherd."

18 And the LORD said to Moses, "Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay your hand upon him;
19 cause him to stand before Elea’zar the priest and all the congregation, and you shall commission him in their sight.
20 You shall invest him with some of your authority, that all the congregation of the people of Israel may obey.
21 And he shall stand before Elea’zar the priest, who shall inquire for him by the judgment of the Urim before the LORD; at his word they shall go out, and at his word they shall come in, both he and all the people of Israel with him, the whole congregation."
22 And Moses did as the LORD commanded him; he took Joshua and caused him to stand before Elea’zar the priest and the whole congregation,
23 and he laid his hands upon him, and commissioned him as the LORD directed through Moses

Who is Jesus? God, He came in the Flesh not only like a Prophet like Moses but greater, and what does God do? He does exactly what he did Under the Mosaic Covenant as he does under the New Covenant, He appoints a head steward who is to lead as Shepherd for his sheep til he returns.

God bless,
John

 

[PeterClatworthy]

That being said they are a group that allows any and all beliefs to join therefore they don’t believe in a single Truth like Catholics or Orthodox should believe in. This is why the Popes and Patriarchs have condemned Masonry-

I suppose then using your reasoning, college fraternities, insurance companies, fitness centers, the armed forces, charity organizations, and many more should be condemned by the Pope? After all, there are literally tens of thousands of groups who permit people from all faiths to join their ranks.

A common misconception is Masonry ‘accepts’ all religions as valid. This couldn’t be further from the truth. It accepts members from all religions.

Oh no, I am afraid that you are VERY mistaken here. The Moderns form of freemasonry allows a candidate for initiation to make his own mind up about what he believes in, including what he means by the word “God”. He is never asked about his “religion” and there is no point becuae there is no list of acceptable religions. Men of no religion have been admitted in their hundreds of thousands.

As a matter of recorded fact, candidates are told, “When you are asked in Whom do you put your trust, you MUST say God, but you do not have to mean it.” It is a complete sham.

And, of course, freemasonry should be deeply religious, and it is anathema for those who believe in God, the Creator and Preserver of all things, and the immortality of souls, to be expected to tolerate a situation where a Wiccan Priest can be a Lodge Chaplain and offer up prayers and invocations to “The Great Architect of the Universe” on behalf of ALL of the members of the lodge.

Which particular “Great Architect of the Universe” would this Wiccan Priest be offering up prayers and invocation to on behalf of the Catholics in his Lodge?

Now either you do not realise this, which I greatly doubt, or your are engaging in actos of misinformation and disinformation.

 

[PeterClatworthy]

Again with the name callling? Tilting at windmillls are we??

Quasi: a combining form meaning “resembling,” “having some, but not all of the features of,” used in the formation of compound words: quasi-definition; quasi-monopoly; quasi-official; quasi-scientific.

You are calling me a quasi Catholic, because I don’t accept you’re okay to join your so -called Quasi free Masonrie? After all you resemble free masonry? but your not like those other free Masons?? Now That’s quasi by any definition!!

Take it up the Magisterium, convince them it’s okay ! And then I probably wouldn’t have the time to join your fake (after all your not like them) ‘free masonrie’ anyway, I spend a lot of my spare time @ RC Church. Which is Genuine authentic and real Catholicism!! All we got to give that is truly our own is our time,

God bless,
John

Our Free Masonrie was constituted by Royal Charter in AD926 and enshrined in statute law. Yours was illegally self-started, without a Charter by profane non-Masons in the back of a London drinking establishment in 1717.

We know what quasi means, and we certainly know a regular Free Mason when we see one, and you are not it, and never will be.

"Upon enquiry it would appear, that all their boasted supremacy is derived from an obscure person, who lived about sixty-two years ago, and whose name is not to be found on record amongst Ancient or Modern Masons." … "Such are the words of the most authentic history amongst Modern Masons, and **beyond contradiction **prove the origin of their supremacy to be a self-created assembly. Nor was a self- creation the only defect: They were defective in numbers. (SOURCE: Ahiman Rezon, by Laurence Dermott, Grand Secretary of the “Antients” Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons According to the Old Institution, published by Southwick & Hardcastle, 2 Wall Street, New York, 1805)

"Who will show me the Mother Lodge? Those of London we have discovered to be self-erected in 1716. Ask for their archives. They tell you they were burnt. They have nothing but the wretched sophistication of the Englishman Anderson and the Frenchman Desagulliers. (SOURCE: Freemasonry - Its Pretensions Exposed In Faithful Extracts Of Its Standard Authors, 1828)

"It is to be regretted that the records of the “Four Old Lodges” do not antedate those of the ‘Grand Lodge’, they brought into existence, as fortunately happens in the case of the single lodge which blossomed into the ‘Grand Lodge of all England, held at York,’ " (SOURCE: The History of Freemasonry, Vol. IV by Robert Freke Gould, 1884)

“No records of any of the “Four Old Lodges” have been made known of a date prior to the London Grand Lodge era …” (SOURCE: Freemasonry in the Early 1600’s and 1700’s by W.J. Hughan, Leicester, 25th January 1904)

“The ‘General Regulations’ of the Grand Lodge at London, printed in the year 1723, was for the use of “the Lodges in and about London and Westminster,” being thus orginally a Metropolitan organisation. At the time they were printed, there was an older authority at work in the City of York, as a “time immemorial” Grand Lodge, whose preserved records date from 1705, but the Grand Lodge was a very old one at that time.” (SOURCE: Freemasonry in the Early 1600’s and 1700’s by W.J. Hughan)

*“Anderson was one of the originators of the London Grand Lodge, and as a man of **strong prejudices ***he was biased in all his inditings, evidences of which are seen throughout his two publications on every possible occasion, in the omission of historical facts, or giving the contrary construction to, and **diverting attention **in cases reflecting unfavourably upon the New Grand Lodge. The Books of Anderson, however, are almost universally accepted by the Masonic fraternity as containing a true history of Freemasonry, at least from the time our review commences, and the Ancient Charges, especially those contained in the 1723 edition, are as generally adopted as the fundamental law and basis of Masonic principles. But notwithstanding Anderson’s Books of Constitutions were published by order of the London Grand Lodge, with its approval and sanction, yet no more **untrustworthy, unreliable **books were ever printed under the direction of any organised association. We affirm that Anderson is not to be credited. The Books of Constitutions were written purposely to deceive, to mislead and misrepresent facts as they existed; and if his reports of Grand Lodge Proceedings are true copies of Grand Lodge Records, then the records were corrupted with the design to mislead the reader.” (SOURCE: Freemasonry in England from 1567 to 1813, Ancient York and London Grand Lodges , pages 15 and 16, by Leon Hyneman, 1877)

Yes, you are a quasi-Masonic Moderns freemason and your postings here are totally dishonest. The quotations above, and I can provide you with dozens more if you wish, are not my opinions, but the opinions of highly respectable and respected literary and historical sources based upon official record and fact.

I am afraid that your are a typical Moderns who never deals with the issues but indulges in all of the traits highlighted in the quotation from Leon Hyneman.

You are simply an apologist and propagandist for the Moderns system of freemasonry which IS incompatible with the Christian Faith.

Now to make it easy for you, why don’t you take one quotation at a time and refute their arguments. I suspect that, true to form, you will merely make another ad hominem attack.

continued on the next posting …

 

[PeterClatworthy]

contd …

Now please allow me to put something into persepective, and on record, so that there are NO doubts here. The membership of the Moderns system of freemasonry totals approximately just under 0.1% of the worlds male population. We do not need them.

We would NOT recommend anyone to resign from the irreligious Moderns system in the mistaken belief that a petition for the Fellowship of the Grand Lodge at York would be welcomed or be met with anything other than the slimmest chance of success.

In fact there is a 99.9% chance that it would be rejected upon first reading BECAUSE of the previous connection with the Moderns system of freemasonry.

One more issue. It is arrogance in the extreme to assume that we would welcome somebody like you as a Fellow of the Grand Lodge at York. This is not the case. You are ideally suited where you are. I cannot say the same for your credibility as a Roman Catholic.

 

[PeterClatworthy]

Alow me to assist you:

First quotation:

“Upon enquiry it would appear, that all their boasted supremacy is derived from an obscure person, who lived about sixty-two years ago, and whose name is not to be found on record amongst Ancient or Modern Masons.” … "Such are the words of the most authentic history amongst Modern Masons, and beyond contradiction prove the origin of their supremacy to be a self-created assembly. Nor was a self- creation the only defect: They were defective in numbers. (SOURCE: Ahiman Rezon, by Laurence Dermott, Grand Secretary of the “Antients” Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons According to the Old Institution, published by Southwick & Hardcastle, 2 Wall Street, New York, 1805)

lodgehope337.org.uk/lectures/henry%20L1.PDF