Catholic Church Buries Limbo After Centuries

  • Thread starter Thread starter TexRose
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Tom, just as an advocate, what about baptism by blood? These children can be considered, I think, as martyrs for the faith. Why? Because they are being killed because of proponents and believers in the culture of death. The culture of death is antithetical to the culture of life. Christianity is the culture of life.

Therefore, those children are dying because of their parents’ (and others) spurning of life in favor of death. The children would, of course, choose life rather than death (that is a natural order of the universe, despite its twisting and distortion by certain ‘thinkers’ that non-existence is preferable to existence).

So since the children would choose life–and thereby the opportunity to choose Christ–and since they are denied that choice through no fault of their own, I argue that they are martyrs and thus eligible for baptism under baptism of blood.
We can guess at any number of ways God can allow those unborns into Heaven, which is why we can hold hope. The truth is those unborns are not at an age of reason, they do not have a clue who Christ is at the point, and have no way of choosing Christ or desiring Christ. Now, God can certainly allow those souls a special way into Heaven that He has not revealed to us, yet we do not know what that is, and cannot say it exists definitively. The bottom line is: God told us baptism by water was an absolute, everything else is guess work.
 
Some on here call Limbo a “theory”. Is that what it is? I can only think of myself as a little Catholic school girl, sitting in the classroom at St. Mary of Perpetual Help parish, being taught by Sister Thomas about Limbo. That it is a real place where unbaptised babies go for all eternity. Now, in 3rd or 4th grade,(back in the mid 60’s) if I were to have said, “Sister Thomas? You’re teaching us about Limbo. But Limbo is only a theory. It’s a “common” Church teaching, not an “official” teaching, so we don’t have to believe what you are teaching us if we don’t want to.” Can you imagine! I would have been spanked in front of the whole class with the board of education, and then hauled off to the principal’s office, and possibly even expelled!!! I guess this is my delimma now. 😦
Well, if you are still worried about being spanked, that is a dilemma. 😉 🙂
 
Now think back to AD 400. Children were being taught that Christ had two natures (the Arian heresy, which for a time overpowered true church teaching among the majority of people). Now, the Church had not pronounced that “Christ has two natures”. (And it hasn’t, and it won’t). But individual teachers, who subscribed to Arianism, DID so teach.
OT, but I needed to clear this up…it’s not correct.

The point of the Incarnation is that Christ DOES have two natures; we believe that he is fully human and fully divine, and that these two natures are united by the hypostatic union into the one person of Christ. This was taught by the Fathers and proclaimed at Church Councils (Ephesus, Chalcedon, more I can’t remember…).

The fully divine Son of God (the Word), without loss to Himself as God, took up human nature and came to express it as Christ, the Incarnate Word. Christ HAS to be both fully and perfectly human (ie, have a body and soul) **and **fully and perfectly divine in order to accomplish our salvation.

The problem with the Arians is that they didn’t believe Christ was true man–they denied that he had a soul. Instead, Jesus was basically God walking around in a body that he just happened to inhabit. So their problem actually was that they denied the two natures of Christ, rather than that they affirmed them.

This is a problem…the resurrection doesn’t mean much if it’s just re-animating some flesh, rather than glorifying man, body and soul. What is incredible about the Incarnation is that God loved us so much that He saw fit to unite Himself–the full glory of the divinity–with the fullness of what it means to be man, that is, to have a body and a soul. Incredibly and mysteriously, the human and divine were united in a single person–our Savior.

I know this has not much to do with limbo, and was only an illustration of an example…but misunderstanding Christ is a big deal and it definitely needed to be clarified.
 
We can guess at any number of ways God can allow those unborns into Heaven, which is why we can hold hope. The truth is those unborns are not at an age of reason, they do not have a clue who Christ is at the point, and have no way of choosing Christ or desiring Christ. Now, God can certainly allow those souls a special way into Heaven that He has not revealed to us, yet we do not know what that is, and cannot say it exists definitively. The bottom line is: God told us baptism by water was an absolute, everything else is guess work.
Tom, your position is exactly the one held by the ITC. So where’s the problem?
 
Tom, your position is exactly the one held by the ITC. So where’s the problem?
The problem lies in the fact that the statements have already been distorted and false teachings are being propogated. Limbo does not have to be believed, yet one cannot say that unborn babies are in Heaven, they can only hope.

The truth about LImbo is this: It describes a consequence for not being baptized by water. That is really its ultimate purporse, that there is an eternal consequence for not being baptized by water because original sin is real and OS must be washed cleaned from our souls. The ITC did not change much, but Catholics think it did, and that is where we are once again into a place where literally millions of people will think false things about baptism, OS, etc.

The dangers are many layered, yet the greatest impact will be that parents will cease feeling a sense of urgency to have their babies baptized (assuming that since unbaptized unborns go to Heaven, then so do unbaptiized born babies and children…not a bad assumption if there is no conseqeunce for not being baptized–Limbo).

IMHO, the Church would have served the Body of Christ far better to not have said anything about Limbo, or it should have made a very strongly woreded statement that there is consequence for not being baptized.
 
Rach==thanks for catching that! I meant, of course, to say exactly what you did but somehow managed exactly the opposite. Mea culpa!
 
The problem lies in the fact that the statements have already been distorted and false teachings are being propogated. Limbo does not have to be believed, yet one cannot say that unborn babies are in Heaven, they can only hope.

The truth about LImbo is this: It describes a consequence for not being baptized by water. That is really its ultimate purporse, that there is an eternal consequence for not being baptized by water because original sin is real and OS must be washed cleaned from our souls. The ITC did not change much, but Catholics think it did, and that is where we are once again into a place where literally millions of people will think false things about baptism, OS, etc.

The dangers are many layered, yet the greatest impact will be that parents will cease feeling a sense of urgency to have their babies baptized (assuming that since unbaptized unborns go to Heaven, then so do unbaptiized born babies and children…not a bad assumption if there is no conseqeunce for not being baptized–Limbo).

IMHO, the Church would have served the Body of Christ far better to not have said anything about Limbo, or it should have made a very strongly woreded statement that there is consequence for not being baptized.
Jesus commanded his disciples to "…go and preach the Gospel to all nations; baptizing them “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost…” This emphasizes the enormity of the sacrament of baptism. Original Sin has to be removed…it is mandated by Jesus. He was also baptized Himself by St. John…this was not grandstanding—it IS that important to our salvation. He showed us by His example.
 
Jesus commanded his disciples to "…go and preach the Gospel to all nations; baptizing them “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost…” This emphasizes the enormity of the sacrament of baptism. Original Sin has to be removed…it is mandated by Jesus. He was also baptized Himself by St. John…this was not grandstanding—it IS that important to our salvation. He showed us by His example.
Yes, but it does not have the same impact as when Jesus said that we mus be baptized to enter the kingdom of God.
 
The problem lies in the fact that the statements have already been distorted and false teachings are being propogated. Limbo does not have to be believed, yet one cannot say that unborn babies are in Heaven, they can only hope.



The ITC did not change much, but Catholics think it did, and that is where we are once again into a place where literally millions of people will think false things about baptism, OS, etc.
lol, when are the Church’s statements not distorted by the media or even rogue theologians? You can’t expect them to ever give an intelligent response to any kind of Catholic news.

Limbo as we’re discussing it here obviously requires a much deeper understanding of the essentials of our faith than the vast majority of Catholics today have. That’s a sad indictment on the success of catechesis today. The only way you’re going to get people to understand limbo, as the ITC is discussing it, is by effectively teaching about original sin, grace, and baptism.

You’re assuming, in your assertion that this declaration of hope from the ITC damaged Catholics’ concept of original sin, that most Catholics today actually understand the importance of sacramental baptism and therefore what limbo is. But the reality is that not many know, or really care at all. Most Catholics are still going to just go with the “limbo is a cruel medieval reality and thank goodness it’s gone!” idea, until the media starts preaching otherwise (which it never will…).

Consider it a blessing that you understand the seriousness of the issue, and critically read the ITC document for your own understanding. We cannot really preoccupy ourselves with how secular society interprets what the Church says, unless it brings Catholics into imminent danger–as we learned with the Regensburg address.
 
Yes. So that means that there are dire consequences for those unbaptized…well, what I am trying to point out is those that REFUSE baptism by their own free will.
 
lol, when are the Church’s statements not distorted by the media or even rogue theologians? You can’t expect them to ever give an intelligent response to any kind of Catholic news.

Limbo as we’re discussing it here obviously requires a much deeper understanding of the essentials of our faith than the vast majority of Catholics today have. That’s a sad indictment on the success of catechesis today. The only way you’re going to get people to understand limbo, as the ITC is discussing it, is by effectively teaching about original sin, grace, and baptism.

You’re assuming, in your assertion that this declaration of hope from the ITC damaged Catholics’ concept of original sin, that most Catholics today actually understand the importance of sacramental baptism and therefore what limbo is. But the reality is that not many know, or really care at all. Most Catholics are still going to just go with the “limbo is a cruel medieval reality and thank goodness it’s gone!” idea, until the media starts preaching otherwise (which it never will…).

Consider it a blessing that you understand the seriousness of the issue, and critically read the ITC document for your own understanding. We cannot really preoccupy ourselves with how secular society interprets what the Church says, unless it brings Catholics into imminent danger–as we learned with the Regensburg address.
Wow! You hit it exactly right! Most people just do not know and do not care to learn more about their faith.

You see, the theological construct of Limbo is meant to give a explanation for why baptism is so very important that can be understood by everyone, even by people who never open a Bible or a Catechism, along with the very real need to explain what happens to unborn and unbaptized babies.

If the Church teaches parents that there is a strong possibility that their unborn babies could end-up in Limbo because their original sin has not been washed away (using Jesus’ own Words as support), then those same parents suddenly become quite motivated to get their born kids/babies baptized. If you tell those same parents that their unborn and unpbatpized babies/kids will go to Heaven, then many of those parents will cease caring about baptism–baptism will become like Confirmaiton, not important (we see this sort of thinking happening with Confirmation, which is a horrible and tragic reality in the Church today that so few Catholics are Confirmed).

Do not forget, faith for many people comes down to the easiest/quickest solution (just think about Protestant Churches, especially mega-Churches, the easy in, easy out, do nothing, just claim the Lord and punch the ticket approach). Anything to make faith easier, quicker, less to do, etc…

It will not take terribly long for abortionists to grasp these new statements and distort them and then use it to tell Catholics that aborted babies go straight to Heaven, so they should not feel guilt, that in fact the Mothers are doing the unborn a favor by sending straight to Heaven.

Further, if unborn babies go to Heaven, and if Limbo is truly gone and meaningless, then why bother baptizing anyone? After all, if God will definitely have mercy on the unborn (who never faced any challenges with sin), then shouldn’t God’s mercy be even greater towards born people who have had to fight the daily battle against sin and evil? In other words, if baptism is not required in some circumstances, then how can it not be thought that Baptism will not be required in any circumstance?

Can you not see the basic truth of this topic? Jesus said if we are not bapitzed by water and spirit, we will not enter the kingdom of God. Jesus did not qualify His remarks and we cannot qualify them for Him.
 
This thread is really long so sorry in advance if anyone has posted a link to the document in question, could they post a link to the document again?
 
Thank God they buried Limbo. Why would anyone think that God would create a “Disney World” for the afterlife? Heaven is the place to be. I am much more comfortable with the belief that the unbaptised are essentially given the same chance as the people who died prior to Christ’s resurrection.

Thumbs up to Heaven, thumbs down to virtual heaven!

Wouldn’t someone who died unbaptised be invincibly ignorant?
 
Thank God they buried Limbo. Why would anyone think that God would create a “Disney World” for the afterlife? Heaven is the place to be. I am much more comfortable with the belief that the unbaptised are essentially given the same chance as the people who died prior to Christ’s resurrection.

Thumbs up to Heaven, thumbs down to virtual heaven!

Wouldn’t someone who died unbaptised be invincibly ignorant?
Then you are saying that is better for a person to be invincibly ignorant, then to take their chances with knowledge. If one is invincibly ignorant, they are gauranteed Heaven, correct?
 
Thank God they buried Limbo. Why would anyone think that God would create a “Disney World” for the afterlife? Heaven is the place to be. I am much more comfortable with the belief that the unbaptised are essentially given the same chance as the people who died prior to Christ’s resurrection.

Thumbs up to Heaven, thumbs down to virtual heaven!

Wouldn’t someone who died unbaptised be invincibly ignorant?
Btw, eternal natural happiness does not sound like Disney World to me.
 
Then you are saying that is better for a person to be invincibly ignorant, then to take their chances with knowledge. If one is invincibly ignorant, they are gauranteed Heaven, correct?
Yes, but what I am saying is who is more invincibly ignorant than a child who was born without being baptised? Wouldn’t you think that an abortion is a pretty good qualification for being invincibly ignorant.

If you don;t know what I mean by “invincibly ignorant”, it is a term used to describe someone who without any fault of their own, could not be Catholic.
 
Btw, eternal natural happiness does not sound like Disney World to me.
Yes, but if you have ever been to Disney World, it is an prepared illusion or fantasy world. There is a castle, but it’s not a real castle. There is Main Street, USA but it is like a Main Street, USA. Limbo is to heaven as Disney is to the main street of a small town or to a real castle. From my understanding of what God is, he does not create “illusions” - he creates real things.
 
This thread is really long so sorry in advance if anyone has posted a link to the document in question, could they post a link to the document again?
My understanding is that the document on limbo has not yet been published. But we have a general idea of what it says from news reports.
 
If a human comes into existence when a sperm fertilizes an egg, and if scientists are correct that over 50% of these fertilized eggs perish, then they constitute the majority of humanity.
 
Yes, but what I am saying is who is more invincibly ignorant than a child who was born without being baptised? Wouldn’t you think that an abortion is a pretty good qualification for being invincibly ignorant.

If you don;t know what I mean by “invincibly ignorant”, it is a term used to describe someone who without any fault of their own, could not be Catholic.
No, because the person is not even born and has made no choices at all, they cannot be invincibly ignorant, they cannot be anything other then alive.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top