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Tom317
Guest
YEs, and Limbo describes a real place.
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Tom317
Guest
Regarding invincible ignorance, I feel we need to be very, very careful with this teaching. It can be abused quite easily because if II is true as you are saying, then it better for every person in the world to not know anything about God in any way, because then every soul will be saved. There are those in history who believed that anyone who dies in invincible ignorance are in fact damned.
At any rate, I will say again that Jesus did not qualify His statement. To enter the kingdom a person MUST be baptized–period.
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cor
Guest
Then it seems like the advent of Jesus made it harder to be saved since in the Old dispensation one did not need to be baptized to be saved and Gentiles as well as Jews could be saved to the degree they responded to God’s grace.
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LilyM
Guest
I think you’re being a little over dramatic here. It’s similar to saying that a hope that public schools are as good as private schools means parents will stop sending their children to private schools. It doesn’t - because parents will still want every possible advantage for their children - assuming that the means is available to them to obtain it.
Who in their right mind wouldn’t want to exchange hope for certainty? I know plenty of parents who aren’t at all strong in their Catholic faith - and a number of Orthodox in the same boat for that matter - and certainly would scoff at the idea of limbo if they’d even heard of it - but funnily enough not a one that I know hasn’t had their children baptised
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mark_a
Guest
Wouldn’t baptism by desire cover infants of Christian parents since parents make the baptism choice for children anyway?
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LilyM
Guest
That, of course, is assuming that the parents actually do form the intention at some point to baptise their children. If they arrive at the conclusion that baptism isn’t necessary then they may not do so.
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johnstown_johnn
Guest
After the Final (or general) Judgment, we know there will be only Heaven and Hell. We also know that God will dwell with us in the New Jerusalem which will be on this very Earth, albeit, a “Cleansed Earth.”
Since there will only be Heaven and Hell; What happens to Limbo? Do the souls of the "elightened infants’ then have the opportunity for Baptism?
Also, when the general Resurrection takes place we are ALL reunited body and soul together…are the aborted children also "Resurrected body and soul?
If so, then they can be given the chance to be baptized. Limbo will have then ceased to exist.
The aborted ones were never given a chance or choice. So: What is the final reward for a mother who deprived her unborn the sacrament of baptism? Does SHE go to Limbo?
Women who consider having an abortion, and who have a Catholic/Christian base should consider the far-reaching consequences of abortion…not only for the child but for herself. Is it possible the CHILD “inherits” the baptism of the mother and the mother, likewise, takes on the Original Sin of the aborted child?
If so, then Limbo (or Hell) depending on her contrition could be her lot in the other dimension.
Since there will only be Heaven and Hell; What happens to Limbo? Do the souls of the "elightened infants’ then have the opportunity for Baptism?
Also, when the general Resurrection takes place we are ALL reunited body and soul together…are the aborted children also "Resurrected body and soul?
If so, then they can be given the chance to be baptized. Limbo will have then ceased to exist.
The aborted ones were never given a chance or choice. So: What is the final reward for a mother who deprived her unborn the sacrament of baptism? Does SHE go to Limbo?
Women who consider having an abortion, and who have a Catholic/Christian base should consider the far-reaching consequences of abortion…not only for the child but for herself. Is it possible the CHILD “inherits” the baptism of the mother and the mother, likewise, takes on the Original Sin of the aborted child?
If so, then Limbo (or Hell) depending on her contrition could be her lot in the other dimension.
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Tom317
Guest
It is very simple: we can hope, but we cannot believe, there is a huge and critical difference.I think you’re being a little over dramatic here. It’s similar to saying that a hope that public schools are as good as private schools means parents will stop sending their children to private schools. It doesn’t - because parents will still want every possible advantage for their children - assuming that the means is available to them to obtain it.
Who in their right mind wouldn’t want to exchange hope for certainty? I know plenty of parents who aren’t at all strong in their Catholic faith - and a number of Orthodox in the same boat for that matter - and certainly would scoff at the idea of limbo if they’d even heard of it - but funnily enough not a one that I know hasn’t had their children baptised
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Tom317
Guest
The point is not to bend and twist things so that we can tie-up eternity in a neat bow, that is God’s job. Rather, Limbo offers and explanation for what happens to unborn babies that is fully in-line with known truths of the faith. The Church has never made Limbo a formal teaching because Limbo has not been revealed to us, it is simply a way to say that there are eternal consequences for not being baptized. No matter what Catholics want to believe, the general approach of the faith today is far different then it was just 50 years ago, in that in the past being Catholic was the only truly known way to Heaven, no other path was truly safe–yet today it seems we are opening the door more-and-more wide with eash passing year…yet God has never said the path was wide.
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Rach620
Guest
So Aristotle’s in hell? He was arguably the pagan philosopher who got closest to God and Christian truth – before the fact! Maybe a long time in purgatory…
You wouldn’t have nearly the richness of Aquinas if you didn’t have Aristotle first!Ugh, there are so many different perspectives on this that I’m about to give up. Justin Martyr said that even Truth-seeking pagans could go to Heaven, because they were really pursuing Christ by pursuing Wisdom.
Whatever grenade that might throw into the Catholic Encyclopedia’s plans for the afterlife, I’m just going to quit speculating.
I know that baptism is, as far as we know, necessary to go to heaven. But that can include *not only *sacramental baptism as we know it, but baptism of blood or desire. And heck, while the sacramental economy is the only way we mere mortals can fathom God’s giving of grace to His people, I’m not ever going to say that he limits His grace only to the means which we can understand. So I hope, for unbaptized infants, for the (perhaps invincibly) ignorant, for non-Christians who have come to see God as Truth in their own ways. For all people, really; everyone needs our hope and prayers.
Do I know what’s going to happen to them? No. Do I understand if or how they (or any of us) are predestined by the Father to dwell with Him? Not in the least.
But it certainly isn’t helping me to speculate. Christian hope is the only thing that we can cling to. God’s ways are indeed unsearchable–none of us can ever understand whom He chooses and why. It just happens; it’s the will of God and it just happens.
So if believing in Augustine’s Limbo, or in Aquinas’ Limbo, or in this new ITC conception of Limbo helps you in your own faith life…then go for it. But your faith and the faith of the Church do not hinge on this teaching in the least.
I for one, have bigger fish to fry at the moment. Finals are coming up…and this discussion is over for me.
God bless, all!
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johnstown_johnn
Guest
I believe over the centuries God in the Person of the Holy Spirit teaches new revelations as humankind and the Church progress. Purgatory is a revelation through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and so on./
The Church is constantly being guided by the Holy Spirit because new and innovative smokescreens for sin are spewed so as to cloud our perceptions.
Evil is subtle and it’s by the grace of God that we are able to discern through the layers of concealment and snares.
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Tom317
Guest
No, no, no! We cannot say anyone is in hell, nor can we say they are Heaven. This is not as hard as people make it to be. We must follow Christ, not our own sense of justice. Whether or not Aristotle is in hell or heaven makes no difference. As Christians we must follow what Christ told us to do, assuming that being outside of Christ is a very bad thing (and perhaps leads to a path to hell). If we do not do that, then there is ZERO reason to be a Christian–zero! And, we might as well be an agnostic and believe anything we want.So Aristotle’s in hell? He was arguably the pagan philosopher who got closest to God and Christian truth – before the fact! Maybe a long time in purgatory…
Ugh, there are so many different perspectives on this that I’m about to give up. Justin Martyr said that even Truth-seeking pagans could go to Heaven, because they were really pursuing Christ by pursuing Wisdom.
Whatever grenade that might throw into the Catholic Encyclopedia’s plans for the afterlife, I’m just going to quit speculating.
I know that baptism is, as far as we know, necessary to go to heaven. But that can include *not only *sacramental baptism as we know it, but baptism of blood or desire. And heck, while the sacramental economy is the only way we mere mortals can fathom God’s giving of grace to His people, I’m not ever going to say that he limits His grace only to the means which we can understand. So I hope, for unbaptized infants, for the (perhaps invincibly) ignorant, for non-Christians who have come to see God as Truth in their own ways. For all people, really; everyone needs our hope and prayers.
Do I know what’s going to happen to them? No. Do I understand if or how they (or any of us) are predestined by the Father to dwell with Him? Not in the least.
But it certainly isn’t helping me to speculate. Christian hope is the only thing that we can cling to. God’s ways are indeed unsearchable–none of us can ever understand whom He chooses and why. It just happens; it’s the will of God and it just happens.
So if believing in Augustine’s Limbo, or in Aquinas’ Limbo, or in this new ITC conception of Limbo helps you in your own faith life…then go for it. But your faith and the faith of the Church do not hinge on this teaching in the least.
I for one, have bigger fish to fry at the moment. Finals are coming up…and this discussion is over for me.
God bless, all!
Christ said we must be baptized, that is it, nothing more to add, nothing more to argue about or debate or theorize about…Jesus settled the matter, we must be baptized if we want to enter His kingdom. Now, if God has some other way for non-bapatized to be saved (be the born or unborn), then that is His business, not ours. The most, and I mean most, we can do is hope that God allows non-baptized people and non-Catholics to be saved, but the perpetual truth of the faith has been that no-one is saved outside the Catholic faith, it is the one and only Ark of salvation, and no amount of modern theological dancing can change that truth.
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johnstown_johnn
Guest
Solid insights. I agree, thank you/.
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Tom317
Guest
There are no new revelations, there is only further understanding regarding some revelations. Yet, truths cannot change for a culture or for an age in history…truth is always truth, and Jesus told us we must be baptized. That is not a suggestion, it is an absolute and it is horrible dangerous to try to say any group of people do not need baptism to be saved, because that is NOT what God said.
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johnstown_johnn
Guest
Maybe “clearer understandings” would be a better choice of words than "new revelations.
Our Lady of Fatima bestowed onto Lucia, Jacinta and Antonio insights of Heaven and Hell along with prophesies of things to come.
OK, these may not be termed "
new revelations" but they are indeed insights that we never imagined before.
Other seers like Sister Faustina and Anne Catherine Emerich have passed on to us favors like the Divine Mercy Sunday. The Rosary as a devotional was not contrived by St. Allen but was directed from Above.
Difficult to separate semantics like “revelations” and “insights” or "perceptions.
Wisdom is a gift of the Holy Spirit as is Knowledge. These are virtues, yes, but they do include prophesy in many cases.
So, how is the Holy Spirit pro-active in the Church yesterday and today?
We are in constant pusuit of God and understanding of His Mind. I think the Beatitudes are the roadmap to this pursuit.
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Tom317
Guest
I agree completely, approved private revelations help us know more about what is already revealed. The things revealed at Fatima are already in Scripture, yet with Our Lady of Fatima’s messages, we have a more clear understanding.
The Holy Spirit is always the same, guiding souls to Christ, no matter who the person is.
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Tom317
Guest
Thank you.
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Jasny
Guest
There is a part of the augument that I always like to inject. It is little detective work. St. Pope Zosimus published a condemnation of Pelegenism called the “Tractoria” This document has been lost but the document was infallable. It incorporated the 16th Council of Carthage (with St. Augustine) Traditionally it is believed to have published Carthage’s canons as his own. It is refered to in the Council of Ephesus:
The Tractoria was sent to the whole world:
" …Pope ZOZIMUS of blessed memory directs us, when writing to the bishops of the whole world…" (Ephesus;Denzinger 134) Not just to the eastern churches.
again:
“The same teacher ZOZIMUS trained us , who, when spoke to the whole world…” (Ephesus; Denzinger 135)
Zosimus accepted the concil of Cathage as his own and proclaimed it to the whole Church, thus making it infallable:
" ’ We[Zozimus], however, by the inspiration of God…have referred all things to the of our brothers and co-bishops.’ " This is begining of his “Tractoria” tell us ALL things are refered to African bishops and the council of Cathage recieved this great praise.
plus:
“Furthermore that which was determined in the decrees of the synod of Cathage, [418 AD] we have embraced as the Apostolic See’s own…” (Ephesus; Denzinger 136)
and:
“But although we do not dare to esteem lightly the deeper and more difficult parts of the questions which they [Augustine and other] have treated in more detail who have restrained the heretics, we do not consider it neccessary to add what thier writings, according to the aforementioned regulation of the Apostolic See, have taught us…”] (Ephesus; Denzinger 136)
The Tractoria was sent to the whole world:
" …Pope ZOZIMUS of blessed memory directs us, when writing to the bishops of the whole world…" (Ephesus;Denzinger 134) Not just to the eastern churches.
again:
“The same teacher ZOZIMUS trained us , who, when spoke to the whole world…” (Ephesus; Denzinger 135)
Zosimus accepted the concil of Cathage as his own and proclaimed it to the whole Church, thus making it infallable:
" ’ We[Zozimus], however, by the inspiration of God…have referred all things to the of our brothers and co-bishops.’ " This is begining of his “Tractoria” tell us ALL things are refered to African bishops and the council of Cathage recieved this great praise.
plus:
“Furthermore that which was determined in the decrees of the synod of Cathage, [418 AD] we have embraced as the Apostolic See’s own…” (Ephesus; Denzinger 136)
and:
“But although we do not dare to esteem lightly the deeper and more difficult parts of the questions which they [Augustine and other] have treated in more detail who have restrained the heretics, we do not consider it neccessary to add what thier writings, according to the aforementioned regulation of the Apostolic See, have taught us…”] (Ephesus; Denzinger 136)
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