- Status
F
FTS
Guest
You may disagree, but I feel time and time again I have proven how your argument is silly and quite ridiculous. It is your own fallible opinion that baptism of desire is impossible for unborn babies, and I disagree, via the three possible methods I have been speaking of. Are they extaordinary mean? Yes, they are. God is not bound by the Sacraments, He can use extraordinary means to impart grace, and therefore these babies could be validly baptised by desire. Your argument just makes no sense. You admit that faithful, practicing Catholics do not get abortions. Guess who the only people are that are interested in this theological speculation? Faithful and practicing Catholics! Women who get abortions, and doctors who murder these babies are certainly not concerned about the eternal fate of these babies! None of them are wondering, “now will these babies go to Limbo or Heaven?” And they could care less what the Catholic Church as to say about it. To say that these people will be affected by how the Church speculates as to what happens to these babies is quite foolish. That is the least of their concern. Many of them are pretending as though these babies are nothing more than a “clump of cells.” They have no regard for these babies, and care less what the Catholic Church has to say about it.
Also, please answer me this…if what you are saying is true, then people who murder Christians worldwide are wonderful, because they are sending them to Heaven as martyrs. I haven’t seen anybody praising people for murdering people for their Christian faith and sending them to Heaven. Likewise, if somebody murdered a person immediately after their baptism, I don’t think anybody would praise them because the victim is in Heaven now. Again, murder is always a grave evil, but thank God it is not the end of the story. You can kill a person, but you cannot kill their soul, which lives on forever. Many people who are murdered will enter Heaven, to be with God face-to-face in eternal bliss, but that doesn’t mean the action of murdering them will ever be praised by anyone. I hope you understand now what an erroneous argument that is to claim.
F
FTS
Guest
I have already told you the three ways in which these individuals could be baptised by desire. The extension of to whom baptism of desire could be applied has never been explicity revealed or taught, just the fact that baptism of desire exists. In the first theory, if God supernaturaly infused free will and reason to them before death, they would possess the reason to reject or accept God and be baptised by desire. In the second theory, maybe the prayers and desire of the angels or saints could create a baptism of desire for the person. In the third theory, maybe all people are born with a natural, built-in desire for God their Creator, and since these individuals are innocent and incapable of rejecting God, a valid baptism of desire for the person is established in a supernatural manner, via their natural, built-in desire for their God and Creator.
F
FTS
Guest
We can hope and believe for their salvation, but we cannot believe with CERTAINTY. Likewise, you can believe in Limbo, but you cannot believe this with certainty. As an example, Joe might believe in creationism. Jack might believe in theistic evolution. Neither person can believe this with absolute certainty, because it hasn’t been infallibly revealed.
F
FTS
Guest
To have perfect contrition, one must be sorry for their sins not out of fear of Hell, but out of love for God. It is certainly not impossible, and most Church theologicans believe many non-Catholics have this, die in a state of grace, and are saved. Only God knows the amount of people, all we know is that it is certainly possible. Catholics have no monopoly on entering into Heaven, many of us will go to Hell and many to Heaven, and many non-Catholics will go to Hell and many to Heaven. Nobody knows these statistics except God alone. Certainly as Catholics, we have the advantage of the full means of the Sacraments and receiving God’s grace, but God does not hold people accountable if they are truly invisible ignorant. Our God is just, merciful ,and loving.
Z
zootjeff
Guest
The best way to increase membership is to speculate on people’s salvation! Why would anyone want to join the Catholic Church if it wasn’t for this reason? I guess we could resort to having 12 kids, that’s the other way to increase membership…
T
Tom317
Guest
Theologians holding an opinion does not impact truth. It is no different then the theory of Limbo, it might exist, but we do not know. Likewise, “perfect contrition” is not as easy as you think, there are at least five elements to being perfectly contrite:
There are 5 qualities or elements that must be in the act of perfect contrition. Whether they are in the form of the contrition or not, they must be present. Hence, you see why I insist on the above wording, for it is flawless, and it incorporates all the 5 qualities of the act of perfect contrition. By the way, name the contrition properly. It is “an act of perfect contrition,” not “a perfect act of contrition.”
**Interior, ** in this element a person must have his entire interior being focused on his sorrow for his faults, it cannot be a situation where a person is distracted or taken away by other thoughts, it must be as close to absolute as possible.
**Supernatural, ** this element simply means that a person must acting under actual Grace by God, not under their own power or authority and the person must have a true sorrow for having offended God.
**Universal, ** the person must be fully contrite for all of his sins and meditate on all of them in order to be perfectly contrite and thus they are contrite for all of their sins, not just the most recent.
Supreme, and Intense. in this the person must have sense within their interior spirit that they would rather die, then commit a mortal sin against God and with great intensity.
Now, the vast majority of all humans cannot attain that level of contrition, which is why the sacrament of confession is so incredibly important. In the confessional, we do not need to be perfectly contrite, we need only to be sorry and to name our sins by number and type.
So, Catholics must walk very carefully thinking that it is easy for non-Catholics to be saved…it is NOT easy.
T
Tom317
Guest
F
FTS
Guest
When I answered your post, my wording was “perfect contrition.” In the past I don’t know if I used “perfect act of contrition” or “act of perfect contrition,” but I don’t think it takes a whole lot of intellectual effort to understand that those phrases mean the same exact thing. The same meaning is held, the contrition must be perform, i.e., the act of having having this contrition must be perfect. Same exact meaning, so I see no reason why that particular nit-picking is helpful or useful to this discussion.
You may disagree, but I don’t feel that having this perfect contrition is as hard as you think. Those 5 qualities you listed were very helpful, and showcase exactly what is needed. In summary you need to be truly sincere, repenting of your sins because of love and devotion to God. This can’t really be classified as “hard” or “easy”, it is what it is. Certainly all people are capable of having this contrition, and if they are sincere can attain it. You may think few non-Catholics enter Heaven, but I think many have and do. In the end it is just our own fallible judgement how often this takes place, only God knows. Same goes for Catholics, only God knows how many of us will enter Heaven. But it is a dangerous attitude if one begins to feel that Catholics have a monopoly on entrance into Heaven. I think it is pretty clear that many Catholics will go to Hell, and many will go to Heaven, just as many non-Catholics will go to Hell, and many will go to Heaven. Also, just think of a Catholic who is aware of committing mortal sin, and sincerely holds a repentant heart, out of love for God. If they die in a car accident on the way to confession, do you really think it is hard for them to enter Heaven? If we are truly sincere, God grants us forgiveness and sanctifying grace enters our soul.
F
FTS
Guest
Don’t worry, haha, it wasn’t on purpose. I see no greater value between the words certitude or certainty. It was just what came to mind quicker I guess.I used the word certitude, you used certainty…wow, what a difference.
F
FTS
Guest
In your own personal opinion, you may feel that way. I disagree, and feel any of those three theories could be applied to the unborn. We are free to disagree on the matter.
F
FTS
Guest
First of all, obviously to receive baptism of blood you must be dying for your Christian faith. I never said anything contrary to this.
Second of all, your attempted cut about my supposed mis-understanding of the Catholic faith only shows your own desperation in this subject area. You have done nothing to explain how I am being intellectually inconsistent. Rather my position is absolutely consistent. Original Sin is real, and baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. I believe infants can be validly baptised by desire, which would wipe away Original Sin and place them in a state of grace. That is consistent, and there is no way of getting around it. I have also taken apart your argument of people beginning to “claim that abortion is great and sends people to Heaven.” The only people who care about this issue are faithful and practicing Catholics, who are not performing or receiving abortions. These people could care less what the Catholic Church thinks on the matter! Their thoughts are focused on “me, myself, and I.” How I can rid myself of this “problem,” or how I can get my pockets fatter by murdering innocent babies. Murder is always evil and wrong, even if the person will go to Heaven as a result. This is not hard for anyone to understand. Have you ever heard people claim radical Islamic fundamentalists are saviors, are doing great things because they murder Christians and send them to Heaven as holy martyrs? I don’t think so. Yes, it is good when someone enters Heaven, but that doesn’t mean the action of murdering them is good, it is wholly evil and horrible. You have been unable to refute my arguments against your sentiments.
You continue to act as if Limbo is infallible doctrine, which is the cause of your downfall. You fail to admit that faithful Catholics are allowed to believe in Limbo OR to believe that these infants can go to Heaven, just like Pope JPII, Pope Benedict XVI, and other Catholic theologians do. Until you recognize this you are in error, and opposed to the teaching of the Catholic Church.
S
shadow_fire
Guest
I disagree I believe homosexual activities to be just as pure and good as heterosexual activities. I also think a large group trying to get a minority to live a sexless life and put pressure and strain on the individuals to live this way merely because they were born different to be sinful. Just my opinions however
F
FTS
Guest
It is never charitable to conform someone in their sin, as Father Corapi says. It is charitable to speak the truth to people, no matter how unpopular it may be, to lead people to God’s truth, and help draw them closer to Jesus Christ. I sympathize with those who have the disorder of same-sex attraction, who have homosexual tendencies. But they have a choice, they can act on this and committ sin, or they can glorify God and live a celibate lifestyle. We all having different callings in life.
They can take all their sufferings and struggles, and unite them to the Crucified Christ, for the salvation of the world and to draw in closer union with Christ. All people can do this with our pain, our suffering, and our struggles, we can offer it up to our Lord Jesus Christ for the salvation of the world and in order to draw into closer union with Him. I have heard many stories of those heavily involved in the homosexual lifestyle, but they had a radical conversion and gave their life to Christ. Some of them are able to live a heterosexual lifestyle, and get married and have a family. And with some people, this just is not for them and they live a celibate lifestyle. I have heard these stories, and people who proudly proclaim they are happier than ever and have been set free of their bondage to sin by God’s grace. There is a great Catholic organization that exists, called Courage, that has as its main purpose reaches out to those with same-sex attraction, loving them and leading them to God, which is the only way they can be truly and authentically happy.
S
shadow_fire
Guest
I don’t believe the Catholic teachings to be correct in the first place so honestly that long post meant nothing to me sorry.
R
rlg94086
Guest
Well, it is a Catholic forum…what did you expect?
- Status