Catholic Church Buries Limbo After Centuries

[Steve_O_Brien]

I was going to leave this thread lie, but your post is really reminiscent of your earlier comments, when you assumed that people would think, mistakenly, that unbaptized babies go to heaven.

If you are so convinced that they go to Limbo, and Limbo is eternal happiness, why wouldn’t it be better to abort a baby and guarantee Limbo, then to allow them to live and risk hell?

It seems that certain belief in Limbo is just as dangerous as certain belief that unbaptized babies go to Heaven.

No, it is not just as dangerous to believe in limbo as it is to believe that all unbaptized babies attain the beatific vision. The danger of believing in the beatific vision for all unbaptized infants is ***immensely ***greater, for this danger reflects the immense difference between ***natural ***and ***supernatural ***happiness. Even though enending natural happiness is nothing to belittle, it is not in the same category as the beatific vision.

The following thought is mere speculation on my part, but I believe that it is something that theologians and all other Catholics should ponder: perhaps God has made the sacrament of Baptism absolutely necessary for infants with a necessity of means (necessitate medii) precisely for the purposes of discouraging the crime of abortion and encouraging the zealous propagation of the Catholic Faith. In other words, the urgent necessity of baptizing infants makes a great deal of sense within the framework of all the other truths of the Faith, whereas the anti-limbo position rips up the entire fabric of Catholic doctrine.

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

In the above post, I meant to write:

"Even though unending natural happiness is nothing to belittle, it is not in the same category as the beatific vision."

Again, I don’t understand why previous posts are locked to prevent the eradication of typos.

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[rlg94086]

No, it is not just as dangerous to believe in limbo as it is to believe that all unbaptized babies attain the beatific vision. The danger of believing in the beatific vision for all unbaptized infants is ***immensely ***greater, for this danger reflects the immense difference between ***natural ***and ***supernatural ***happiness. Even though enending natural happiness is nothing to belittle, it is not in the same category as the beatific vision.

But both natural and supernatural happiness are preferable to hell, right? If someone knows that their unbaptized infant is going to have natural happiness forever if they die, then who cares if they miss a few weeks, months, years before baptism? Or if an aborted unborn baby is going to go to Limbo, what’s the problem with abortion?

I agree that supernatural happiness is important and “nothing to belittle.” But, the argument on this thread was made early on that if we “bury” Limbo, that the whole Church would fall apart. I’m just challenging that assertion.

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

But both natural and supernatural happiness are preferable to hell, right? If someone knows that their unbaptized infant is going to have natural happiness forever if they die, then who cares if they miss a few weeks, months, years before baptism? Or if an aborted unborn baby is going to go to Limbo, what’s the problem with abortion?

I agree that supernatural happiness is important and “nothing to belittle.” But, the argument on this thread was made early on that if we “bury” Limbo, that the whole Church would fall apart. I’m just challenging that assertion.

If the mere hypothesis of the existence of limbo is understood correctly in accordance with Catholic tradition, it does not jeopardize the lives of unborn children by encouraging abortion. Nor does it discourage the Baptism of newborns.

To use the words of the *Catechism of the Catholic Church *(section 1261), we who defend St. Thomas Aquinas’s hypothesis of limbo should say that we merely hope that this “way of salvation” from the pain of sense in hell may be open to unbaptized infants. St. Augustine, Pope St. Gregory the Great, and St. Anselm believed that those infants suffer from the pain of sense in hell in addition to being deprived of the beatific vision. The uncertainty concerning the existence of limbo should be borne in mind by anyone, woman or man, who is tempted to become complicit in the murder of unborn children, and this uncertainty should be a deterrence to the commission of that mortal sin.

No Catholic should say: “I am absolutely certain that all unbaptized infants attain either ***natural ***happiness in limbo or supernatural happiness in heaven.” As anti-limbo advocates correctly point out, the existence of limbo is not a Catholic dogma. What is a Catholic dogma is merely the exclusion of unbaptized infants from the beatific vision in heaven.

To say that all unbaptized infants are guaranteed, not the gift of **natural **happiness in limbo, but the immensely greater gift of ***supernatural ***happiness in heaven, is indeed to cause the whole edifice of Catholic doctrine to fall apart.

To grant heaven to all unbaptized infants is a contradiction of the de fide teaching (taught by Lyons II and Florence) that those who die in original sin only are somehow penalized for this sin in the next world. Heaven cannot be a punishment. If the infallible Catholic dogma of the exclusion of unbaptized infants from the beatific vision is false, then *any *infallible Catholic dogma can be false, and an intellectually honest person can no longer remain in the Catholic Church.

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[Tom317]

I was going to leave this thread lie, but your post is really reminiscent of your earlier comments, when you assumed that people would think, mistakenly, that unbaptized babies go to heaven.

If you are so convinced that they go to Limbo, and Limbo is eternal happiness, why wouldn’t it be better to abort a baby and guarantee Limbo, then to allow them to live and risk hell?

It seems that certain belief in Limbo is just as dangerous as certain belief that unbaptized babies go to Heaven.

NO, not at all. Eternal happiness in Limbo is NOT the same as the full Beatific Vision, the unborn babies do suffer a loss, though that loss is not eternal damnation. I never said or even implied that the unborn will not suffer loss, rather their loss is not what people make it out to be.

What you choose for yourself, the fullness of the Beatific Vision, or natural happiness? I assum you choose the BV as would everyone I know, and the only way to have a hope of that is if we are baptized, otherwise the souls does suffer a loss–which is the main point behind my points in this thread all along, Limbo describes a consequence for not being baptized, which makes baptizing burn people an extremely important sacrament because parents will want to protect their babies from suffering a loss.

One does not need to go to hell in order to suffer loss.

 

[Tom317]

In that case, Yeshua’s mission means nothing for over half the human race. They are in the same situation as if he never made the trip.

Not true at all. First, the Church is now present across the globe, which gives everyone at least a chance. Second, salvation is possible for non-Catholics, it is just much harder the farther one gets from Christ.

 

[GreenJeans]

Not true at all. First, the Church is now present across the globe, which gives everyone at least a chance. Second, salvation is possible for non-Catholics, it is just much harder the farther one gets from Christ.

The Church may be all over the globe, but that only effects the segment of the population that has been born and is breathing air. If a human comes into existence at the moment of fertilization, then membership in the human race begins at fertilization.

Half the embryos do not survive until birth. Soon after fertiliation they fail. If this group went to Limbo prior to Yeshua’s mission, and they still go to Limbo after his mission, then his mission means nothing for them. The entire concept of salvation means nothing to them.

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

The Church may be all over the globe, but that only affects the segment of the population that has been born and is breathing air. If a human comes into existence at the moment of fertilization, then membership in the human race begins at fertilization.

Half the embryos do not survive until birth. Soon after fertilization they fail. If this group went to Limbo prior to Yeshua’s mission, and they still go to Limbo after his mission, then his mission means nothing for them. The entire concept of salvation means nothing to them.

On the contrary, the souls who attain unending natural happiness in limbo are, through God’s love and mercy, saved from the pain of sense in hell. For this reason, they, too, benefit from the Redemption effected by Jesus’s death on the cross.

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[GreenJeans]

On the contrary, the souls who attain unending natural happiness in limbo are, through God’s love and mercy, saved from the pain of sense in hell. For this reason, they, too, benefit from the Redemption effected by Jesus’s death on the cross.

Keep and spread the Faith.

How exactly do they benefit? Did they go to hell prior to Yeshua’s mission? They had God’s love and mercy prior to Yeshua’s mission. They meet the same fate before and after Yeshua’s mission.

 

[prv]

Limbo has NOT been buried. Pope Benedict XVI has only given permission for this theological group to reaffirm what already has been taught: that it is possible for the unbaptized to enter paradise. Not certain. The last few sentences of the article are misleading. The Church has never taught either one way or the other on the subject. Therefore, it is neither heresy to believe or disbelieve the concept.

 

[prv]

In all things, we must trust in the Lord’s mercy, not act like a bunch of evangelicals who “know for sure” that we, or our children are going to heaven. TRUST, is the key word. HOPE is another.

 

[Tom317]

The Church may be all over the globe, but that only effects the segment of the population that has been born and is breathing air. If a human comes into existence at the moment of fertilization, then membership in the human race begins at fertilization.

Half the embryos do not survive until birth. Soon after fertiliation they fail. If this group went to Limbo prior to Yeshua’s mission, and they still go to Limbo after his mission, then his mission means nothing for them. The entire concept of salvation means nothing to them.

I think being saved from torment in hell is a huge thing.

 

[GreenJeans]

I think being saved from torment in hell is a huge thing.

It is a huge thing. But they were saved from that torment prior to Yeshua’s mission. That’s why it doesn’t matter to over half the human race.

Where did they go prior to Yeshua’s mission?
Where did they go after Yeshua’s mission?
What’s the difference?

 

[rlg94086]

Very well stated. Thanks Steve.

If the mere hypothesis of the existence of limbo is understood correctly in accordance with Catholic tradition, it does not jeopardize the lives of unborn children by encouraging abortion. Nor does it discourage the Baptism of newborns.

To use the words of the *Catechism of the Catholic Church *(section 1261), we who defend St. Thomas Aquinas’s hypothesis of limbo should say that we merely hope that this “way of salvation” from the pain of sense in hell may be open to unbaptized infants. St. Augustine, Pope St. Gregory the Great, and St. Anselm believed that those infants suffer from the pain of sense in hell in addition to being deprived of the beatific vision. The uncertainty concerning the existence of limbo should be borne in mind by anyone, woman or man, who is tempted to become complicit in the murder of unborn children, and this uncertainty should be a deterrence to the commission of that mortal sin.

No Catholic should say: “I am absolutely certain that all unbaptized infants attain either ***natural ***happiness in limbo or supernatural happiness in heaven.” As anti-limbo advocates correctly point out, the existence of limbo is not a Catholic dogma. What is a Catholic dogma is merely the exclusion of unbaptized infants from the beatific vision in heaven.

To say that all unbaptized infants are guaranteed, not the gift of natural happiness in limbo, but the immensely greater gift of ***supernatural ***happiness in heaven, is indeed to cause the whole edifice of Catholic doctrine to fall apart.

To grant heaven to all unbaptized infants is a contradiction of the de fide teaching (taught by Lyons II and Florence) that those who die in original sin only are somehow penalized for this sin in the next world. Heaven cannot be a punishment. If the infallible Catholic dogma of the exclusion of unbaptized infants from the beatific vision is false, then any infallible Catholic dogma can be false, and an intellectually honest person can no longer remain in the Catholic Church.

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[john1863]

I guess I have to say this…it was probably said before. The innocent will most likely attain Heaven. There it is…can you imagine a loving God denying them entrance to His Kingdom because someone aborted him or her?
Sorry, but I believe in a more compassionate God.

John

 

[Tom317]

I guess I have to say this…it was probably said before. The innocent will most likely attain Heaven. There it is…can you imagine a loving God denying them entrance to His Kingdom because someone aborted him or her?
Sorry, but I believe in a more compassionate God.

John

If that is true, then baptism is fairly worthless and original sin is a false teaching.

 

[Tom317]

It is a huge thing. But they were saved from that torment prior to Yeshua’s mission. That’s why it doesn’t matter to over half the human race.

Where did they go prior to Yeshua’s mission?
Where did they go after Yeshua’s mission?
What’s the difference?

Of course it matters. If one follows Christ, they can have the hope of the Beatific Vision, so to say it does not matter is wrong.

The souls of those who came before Christ had to wait until Christ died for us. Yet, it was still the work of Christ on the cross that saved them and it is His work that gives all people hope, no matter what era they have or will live in.

This is why it is of such critical importance to preach Jesus to the ends of the earth, for it is only through Christ that one can enjoy the Beatific Vision, there is no other way.

 

[GreenJeans]

Of course it matters. If one follows Christ, they can have the hope of the Beatific Vision, so to say it does not matter is wrong.

The souls of those who came before Christ had to wait until Christ died for us. Yet, it was still the work of Christ on the cross that saved them and it is His work that gives all people hope, no matter what era they have or will live in.

This is why it is of such critical importance to preach Jesus to the ends of the earth, for it is only through Christ that one can enjoy the Beatific Vision, there is no other way.

How can a fertilized egg which perishes before it even attains the state of two cells follow Christ? A one-celled human doesn’t hope.

If the one-cell human went to Limbo before Yeshua, and the one-cell human goes to Limbo after Yeshua, then Yeshua’s mission doesn’t matter to him. Nothing changes for the one-cell human. No difference for the one-cell humans.

It doesn’t matter to over half the human race. Under your theory, Yeshua didn’t come to save mankind, he came to save the air-breathers.

Preach Jesus to the ends of the earth? Fine. How do you preach him to the one-cell humans?

 

[japhy]

the gift of natural happiness in limbo

See, that’s another I don’t understand. How can eternal natural happiness exist apart from God? How can you be living eternally and not wonder why? I think Scripture denies eternal ignorance of God:

For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written: As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. Therefore every one of us shall render account to God for himself. (Rom 14:10b-12)

For which cause God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above all names: That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth: And that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father. (Phil 2:9-11)

Behold, he cometh with the clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they also that pierced him. And all the tribes of the earth shall bewail themselves because of him. Even so. Amen. (Rev 1:7)

I could not, then, consider an eternal existence ignorant of God possible, unless shown counter-evidence. Then those in Limbo would know of God, so it would be Hell without “punishment”.

 

[cor]

See, that’s another I don’t understand. How can eternal natural happiness exist apart from God? How can you be living eternally and not wonder why? I think Scripture denies eternal ignorance of God:

For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written: As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. Therefore every one of us shall render account to God for himself. (Rom 14:10b-12)

For which cause God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above all names: That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth: And that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father. (Phil 2:9-11)

Behold, he cometh with the clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they also that pierced him. And all the tribes of the earth shall bewail themselves because of him. Even so. Amen. (Rev 1:7)

I could not, then, consider an eternal existence ignorant of God possible, unless shown counter-evidence. Then those in Limbo would know of God, so it would be Hell without “punishment”.

Those in Limbo are not ignorant of God. We are not ignorant of God on earth either. I don’t know where you are getting the idea that those in Limbo are ignorant of God from. Those in Limbo also do not exist apart from God. God is present there, just like he is present on earth and everywhere.