Catholic Church Buries Limbo After Centuries

[rlg94086]

They did not go to hell because Jesus’ sacrifice applies to all souls who ever lived. Whether or not Limbo existed before or after Christ is not the point. The point is, those unborn babies would not go to hell because Christ saved everyone. It could be similar to the saints, in that they had to wait until Jesus’ sacrifice to then go to Limbo, they could have gone to Limbo directly if it existed prior to Christ, or they could have been alseep until Jesus’ sacrifice. I was merely answwering a challenge that the fate of those souls would be the same whether Jesus came or not, and that is false…all souls, boirn and unborn, would go to hell without Jesus’ sacrifice, that includes the souls before Christ, before and unborn.

You are obfuscating the facts as we were taught. Jesus’ sacrifice happened in time. Whether Limbo exists before and after that time, is exactly what you were challenged on. If anyone, babies included, went to hell (eternal damnation) before Christ died on the cross, they could not then be saved. Christ did not save everyone who lived prior to his sacrifice. He did save those who were denied the Beatific Vision - Limbo of the Fathers - before his sacrifice.

Now, if innocent babies who died before His sacrifice on the cross were in the Limbo of the Fathers and innocent babies who die are in Limbo after his sacrifice, what is the difference to them?

Either way, they have/had no chance for Beatific Vision, correct?

 

[Tom317]

You are obfuscating the facts as we were taught. Jesus’ sacrifice happened in time. Whether Limbo exists before and after that time, is exactly what you were challenged on. If anyone, babies included, went to hell (eternal damnation) before Christ died on the cross, they could not then be saved. Christ did not save everyone who lived prior to his sacrifice. He did save those who were denied the Beatific Vision - Limbo of the Fathers - before his sacrifice.

Now, if innocent babies who died before His sacrifice on the cross were in the Limbo of the Fathers and innocent babies who die are in Limbo after his sacrifice, what is the difference to them?

Either way, they have/had no chance for Beatific Vision, correct?

Wrong. My most recent challenge was about unborn babies who died before Jesus. The challenge stated that there would be no difference for them that Christ came and sacrificed for us. That was the challenge, it might not be your challenge, but the challenge did not come from you.

If Jesus did not come, everyone would go to hell–that is a fact.

 

[Tom317]

You are obfuscating the facts as we were taught. Jesus’ sacrifice happened in time. Whether Limbo exists before and after that time, is exactly what you were challenged on. If anyone, babies included, went to hell (eternal damnation) before Christ died on the cross, they could not then be saved. Christ did not save everyone who lived prior to his sacrifice. He did save those who were denied the Beatific Vision - Limbo of the Fathers - before his sacrifice.

Now, if innocent babies who died before His sacrifice on the cross were in the Limbo of the Fathers and innocent babies who die are in Limbo after his sacrifice, what is the difference to them?

Either way, they have/had no chance for Beatific Vision, correct?

Follow-up.

Why, why, why is this so hard to understand? Jesus’ sacrificed is what saved the souls before and after His sacrifice, so if unborn babies died, they did not go to hell because of Jesus’ sacrifice. If Jesus never came, then those same souls, along with all other souls, would to hell.

This is so easy:

No Jesus = Hell for every soul, born or unborn, befopre and after Christ..

 

[rlg94086]

So…old covenants were only valid due to Jesus’s sacrifice, therefore all Jews, past and present, are saved in Christ…even without Baptism?

Follow-up.

Why, why, why is this so hard to understand? Jesus’ sacrificed is what saved the souls before and after His sacrifice, so if unborn babies died, they did not go to hell because of Jesus’ sacrifice. If Jesus never came, then those same souls, along with all other souls, would to hell.

This is so easy:

No Jesus = Hell for every soul, born or unborn, befopre and after Christ..

 

[rlg94086]

Here’s what the Catechism says:

**633 **Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - *Sheol *in Hebrew or *Hades *in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” ***Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.

---

Now, were innocent babies before Christ part of “the just.” If you say “yes,” that means they were delivered and received the Beatific Vision. If you say “no,” then their state didn’t change. What was their state? Were they in hell? Limbo?

Now, innocent unbaptized babies who die today go where? Limbo?

If they are all in Limbo, then that is consistent and it begs the question, what changed for them? If the babies who died before Christ were saved when He descended into hell, then it begs the question, why can’t unbaptized babies today be saved?

 

[Tom317]

So…old covenants were only valid due to Jesus’s sacrifice, therefore all Jews, past and present, are saved in Christ…even without Baptism?

Yes, the Jews were saved by Christ, and you must note that the Jews believed in Jesus indirectly because they believed in God’s Promised of the Messiah, which means they were likely baptized through desire (no that does not apply to unborns during OT times for the same reason as NT times).

Personally, I believe Limbo existed before Christ, although the Church is quiet on Limbo before Christ. I believe the souls of unborn babies before Christ went to Limbo, but only after Jesus’ sacrifice. As for non-Jews in the OT, those would be the same as non-Catholics of today, they had a possibility of being saved.

 

[rlg94086]

Yes, the Jews were saved by Christ, and you must note that the Jews believed in Jesus indirectly because they believed in God’s Promised of the Messiah, which means they were likely baptized through desire (no that does not apply to unborns during OT times for the same reason as NT times).

Personally, I believe Limbo existed before Christ, although the Church is quiet on Limbo before Christ.** I believe the souls of unborn babies before Christ went to Limbo, but only after Jesus’ sacrifice. As for non-Jews in the OT, those would be the same as non-Catholics of today, they had a possibility of being saved**.

So, you do believe that unbaptized babies could go to heaven? How does that jive with what Stevie O said regarding the *de fide *teaching that they can’t?

 

[GreenJeans]

Where is a single-cell human who perished in 100BC?
Where is a single-cell human who perished in 100AD?

 

[Tom317]

Where is a single-cell human who perished in 100BC?
Where is a sigle-cell human who perished in 100AD?

That won’t work because you first made your challenge about Jesus, now you are chaning the challenge.

You must realize you lost that challenge, so now you are trying a bait-and-switch, not gonna work.

 

[rlg94086]

Yes, the Jews were saved by Christ, and you must note that the Jews believed in Jesus indirectly because they believed in God’s Promised of the Messiah, which means they were likely baptized through desire (no that does not apply to unborns during OT times for the same reason as NT times).

Personally, I believe Limbo existed before Christ, although the Church is quiet on Limbo before Christ. I believe the souls of unborn babies before Christ went to Limbo, but only after Jesus’ sacrifice. As for non-Jews in the OT, those would be the same as non-Catholics of today, they had a possibility of being saved.

Well, you can “personally” believe whatever you want. The fact remains that if they weren’t damned before the resurrection and they aren’t damned after the resurrection, then they were and are in the state of Limbo, so nothing has changed, as GreenJeans stated.

 

[GreenJeans]

That won’t work because you first made your challenge about Jesus, now you are chaning the challenge.

You must realize you lost that challenge, so now you are trying a bait-and-switch, not gonna work.

It’s a logical component of my challenge. If you don’t know the fate of a single-cell human that perished in 100BC, and you don’t know the fate of a single-cell human who perished in 100AD, then you have no basis to make your claims.

 

[Tom317]

Well, you can “personally” believe whatever you want. The fact remains that if they weren’t damned before the resurrection and they aren’t damned after the resurrection, then they were and are in the state of Limbo, so nothing has changed, as GreenJeans stated.

No! Not even close to true. If Christ had not come, those souls would be in hell. Why is that so tought to understand?

Greenjeans’ challenge was that Jesus’ coming makes no difference to unborn souls before and after Christ, that is wrong. If Jesus did not come, and if He did not sacrifice Himself, those souls would be in hell. That means Jesus’ sacrifice is of critical importance, whereas GreenJeans was trying to say Jesus’ coming meant nothing. What I have said many times, and you and GreenJeans refuse to acknowledge, is that Jesus’ sacrifice is present through all history, from the beginning to the end. No born or unborn peson who ever lived would be saved if Jesus had not died on the cross. I sure do hope you realize there is a difference between being in Limbo (eternal happiness) versus being in hell (eternal torment).

 

[Tom317]

It’s a logical component of my challenge. If you don’t know the fate of a single-cell human that perished in 100BC, and you don’t know the fate of a single-cell human who perished in 100AD, then you have no basis to make your claims.

No, you stated that to the souls in Limbo (before or after Christ) it makes no difference if Jesus came into the world. That is flatly wrong. If Jesus did not come into the world, all souls (born and unborn) would be damned to hell.

Now, I have answered your challenge many times, so please answer my question: Where would you rather be, Limbo or hell, and why?

 

[rlg94086]

No! Not even close to true. If Christ had not come, those souls would be in hell. Why is that so tought to understand?

Because you haven’t reconciled it with the quote I provided from the Catechism or provided any Church teaching to back up your hypothesis.

Greenjeans’ challenge was that Jesus’ coming makes no difference to unborn souls before and after Christ, that is wrong. If Jesus did not come, and if He did not sacrifice Himself, those souls would be in hell. That means Jesus’ sacrifice is of critical importance, whereas GreenJeans was trying to say Jesus’ coming meant nothing. What I have said many times, and you and GreenJeans refuse to acknowledge, is that Jesus’ sacrifice is present through all history, from the beginning to the end. No born or unborn peson who ever lived would be saved if Jesus had not died on the cross. I sure do hope you realize there is a difference between being in Limbo (eternal happiness) versus being in hell (eternal torment).

Again…please give some back-up to your statements and reconcile them with the Catechism I quoted. As far as I am concerned, you just keep giving your personal opinion.

 

[Tom317]

Because you haven’t reconciled it with the quote I provided from the Catechism or provided any Church teaching to back up your hypothesis.

Again…please give some back-up to your statements and reconcile them with the Catechism I quoted. As far as I am concerned, you just keep giving your personal opinion.

Jesus’ sacrifice was once for all…it is in the BIble and the Catechism.

 

[GreenJeans]

No! Not even close to true. If Christ had not come, those souls would be in hell. Why is that so tought to understand?

Greenjeans’ challenge was that Jesus’ coming makes no difference to unborn souls before and after Christ, that is wrong. If Jesus did not come, and if He did not sacrifice Himself, those souls would be in hell. That means Jesus’ sacrifice is of critical importance, whereas GreenJeans was trying to say Jesus’ coming meant nothing. What I have said many times, and you and GreenJeans refuse to acknowledge, is that Jesus’ sacrifice is present through all history, from the beginning to the end. No born or unborn peson who ever lived would be saved if Jesus had not died on the cross. I sure do hope you realize there is a difference between being in Limbo (eternal happiness) versus being in hell (eternal torment).

Yeshua came in time. If what he did was alreday done, he didn’t have to come.

 

[GreenJeans]

No, you stated that to the souls in Limbo (before or after Christ) it makes no difference if Jesus came into the world. That is flatly wrong. If Jesus did not come into the world, all souls (born and unborn) would be damned to hell.

Now, I have answered your challenge many times, so please answer my question: Where would you rather be, Limbo or hell, and why?

Of course it makes no difference unless the single-cell human that perished in 100BC is in a different place from the single-cell human who perished in 100AD. Where is each? If the answer is Limbo, then Yeshua’s mission was meaningless for them. Limbo then, Limbo now.

 

[Tom317]

Here’s what the Catechism says:

Now, were innocent babies before Christ part of “the just.” If you say “yes,” that means they were delivered and received the Beatific Vision. If you say “no,” then their state didn’t change. What was their state? Were they in hell? Limbo?

Now, innocent unbaptized babies who die today go where? Limbo?

If they are all in Limbo, then that is consistent and it begs the question, what changed for them? If the babies who died before Christ were saved when He descended into hell, then it begs the question, why can’t unbaptized babies today be saved?

Your quote is prescisly what I have described. No souls went to the Beatific Vision before Christ died on the cross, that is in perfect harmony with what I have been saying. Christ delivered to salvation those just souls who went before Him, but those were souls who lived a life, not souls who were killed in the womb. Now, the reason those souls were “kept” in that abode is because God (Jesus) foreknew everything that would happen with Christ on the cross. If Christ had not died on the cross, all of the souls would be in hell.

No Jesus = Hell for everyone…it is a fundamental Biblical, and Christian truth.

 

[GreenJeans]

Your quote is prescisly what I have described. No souls went to the Beatific Vision before Christ died on the cross, that is in perfect harmony with what I have been saying. Christ delivered to salvation those just souls who went before Him, but those were souls who lived a life, not souls who were killed in the womb. Now, the reason those souls were “kept” in that abode is because God (Jesus) foreknew everything that would happen with Christ on the cross. If Christ had not died on the cross, all of the souls would be in hell.

No Jesus = Hell for everyone…it is a fundamental Biblical, and Christian truth.

Can you clarify? Are you saying a good man who died at age 80 in 100BC went to Limbo? And a single-cell human who perished at the same time went to Limbo? But when Yeshua completed his mission the 80 year old went to heaven but the single-cell did not? The single-cell stayed in Limbo?

 

[Tom317]

Of course it makes no difference unless the single-cell human that perished in 100BC is in a different place from the single-cell human who perished in 100AD. Where is each? If the answer is Limbo, then Yeshua’s mission was meaningless for them. Limbo then, Limbo now.

I am beginning to get a feeling you are just trying to frustrate me. But, with charity, I will hope you are not.

Once more: If there is no Jesus, all souls go to hell, born and unborn. With Jesus, the unborn souls, before and after Christ, are in Limbo. Take away Jesus and we (you and I and all we know and all who are alive right now) would be destined for hell. Take away Jesus and everyone who died before us would be in hell. Take away Jesus and every one of our kids and all future people would be destined for hell.

Therefore, your challenge that Jesus made no difference is simply ridiculous, it is the difference between heaven and hell, and limbo and hell.