Catholic Church Buries Limbo After Centuries

[Tom317]

Can you clarify? Are you saying a good man who died at age 80 in 100BC went to Limbo? And a single-cell human who perished at the same time went to Limbo? But when Yeshua completed his mission the 80 year old went to heaven but the single-cell did not? The single-cell stayed in Limbo?

Close.

The 100BC person went to the abode of the dead, which is not Limbo. He waited there for Jesus to complete His sacrifice and then went to Heaven (Beatific Vision). That person, upon death, was given a personal/particular judgment and was judged to be righteous or saved.

The unborn person (single celled is the wrong description btw), died in the womb and went to Limbo because they could not receive a particular judgment for a life he did not live.

 

[rlg94086]

You are avoiding the issue of the state of the souls of those who were not saved by Christ when he descended to hell.

He did not save the damned. Therefore, either there were innocent babies whom He did save with the just (went to the Beatific Vision), or the innocent babies were damned (hell) or the innocent babies were in a state where they were neither damned nor saved (Limbo). Which was it Tom?

Your quote is prescisly what I have described. No souls went to the Beatific Vision before Christ died on the cross, that is in perfect harmony with what I have been saying. Christ delivered to salvation those just souls who went before Him, but those were souls who lived a life, not souls who were killed in the womb. Now, the reason those souls were “kept” in that abode is because God (Jesus) foreknew everything that would happen with Christ on the cross. If Christ had not died on the cross, all of the souls would be in hell.

No Jesus = Hell for everyone…it is a fundamental Biblical, and Christian truth.

 

[Tom317]

You are avoiding the issue of the state of the souls of those who were not saved by Christ when he descended to hell.

He did not save the damned. Therefore, either there were innocent babies whom He did save with the just (went to the Beatific Vision), or the innocent babies were damned (hell) or the innocent babies were in a state where they were neither damned nor saved (Limbo). Which was it Tom?

Unborn babies who died before Christ went to Limbo. They could not receive the Beatific Vision, nor did they merit hell.

 

[Tom317]

You are avoiding the issue of the state of the souls of those who were not saved by Christ when he descended to hell.

He did not save the damned. Therefore, either there were innocent babies whom He did save with the just (went to the Beatific Vision), or the innocent babies were damned (hell) or the innocent babies were in a state where they were neither damned nor saved (Limbo). Which was it Tom?

BTW, I think you need to understand something. Everyone would be damned, even the unborn babies, if Jesus had not come into the world. We all deserve damnation, so do the unborn babies, yet it is only Jesus’ sacrifice that saves us from the torments of hell, if we respond to Him appropriately. There would have been no souls to save in hell if Jesus had not come into the world. I think the concept you, and others, are wrestling with is the fact that God works outside of time and He is aware of Jesus’ sacrifice from the beginning of time, through eternity…which is exactly why the souls of the just were held in the abode of the dead waiting for Jesus to complete what God knew He would complete.

 

[rlg94086]

Unborn babies who died before Christ went to Limbo. They could not receive the Beatific Vision, nor did they merit hell.

Right. So, NOTHING CHANGED FOR THEM AFTER CHRIST’S RESURRECTION!!

 

[rlg94086]

I understand that the Catechism teaches that Jesus’s death and ressurrection were historical events. They were not outside of time.

BTW, I think you need to understand something. Everyone would be damned, even the unborn babies, if Jesus had not come into the world. We all deserve damnation, so do the unborn babies, yet it is only Jesus’ sacrifice that saves us from the torments of hell, if we respond to Him appropriately. There would have been no souls to save in hell if Jesus had not come into the world. I think the concept you, and others, are wrestling with is the fact that God works outside of time and He is aware of Jesus’ sacrifice from the beginning of time, through eternity…which is exactly why the souls of the just were held in the abode of the dead waiting for Jesus to complete what God knew He would complete.

 

[Tom317]

Right. So, NOTHING CHANGED AFTER CHRIST’S RESURRECTION!!

That was NOT the challenge. The challenge was: Jesus’ mission to this world made no difference to the souls in Limbo. That is just wrong. Those souls in Limbo are there because of Jesus coming into the world, they would be in hell if He did not come into the world. Therefore, there is a huge benefit those souls have received because Jesus came into the world. Check and mate!

 

[Tom317]

I understand that the Catechism teaches that Jesus’s death and ressurrection were historical events. They were not outside of time.

Yes, they are events in time, but His sacrifice is present outside of time and within time. That is why at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass we can say we are not re-crucifying the Lord, rather we are re-presenting the once for all sacrific Christ made. That sacrifice was made present to all souls of the OT and to the NT era, because the saving action of the sacrifice exists outside of time and within the bounds of time where we live.

 

[GreenJeans]

Close.

The 100BC person went to the abode of the dead, which is not Limbo. He waited there for Jesus to complete His sacrifice and then went to Heaven (Beatific Vision). That person, upon death, was given a personal/particular judgment and was judged to be righteous or saved.

The unborn person (single celled is the wrong description btw), died in the womb and went to Limbo because they could not receive a particular judgment for a life he did not live.

Well, then there is no difference between what happened to the single-cell human before or after Yeshua’s mission. It doesn’t matter to them. It mattered to air-breathrs, but not the single-cell humans. And it matters to air-breathers today, but not single-cell humans.

That brings up an interesting idea. If God treats single-cell humans and air-breathers differently, who are we to say they shouldn’t be treated differently?

A single-cell human did not have a life? It is alive from the very instant of conception. Why do you disrespect such a life?

(Single-cell human is a very accurate term for what I am describing. It is a fertilized egg which perishes prior to successfuly spliting into a two-cell human.)

 

[rlg94086]

Fine. You win, if that makes you feel better.

Unfortunately, your argument is outside of the realm of logic. A change occurred for the just who were in the Limbo of the Fathers when Jesus became man, died, was buried and resurrected - they went to the Beatific Vision. No change occured for innocent babies.

That was NOT the challenge. The challenge was: Jesus’ mission to this world made no difference to the souls in Limbo. That is just wrong. Those souls in Limbo are there because of Jesus coming into the world, they would be in hell if He did not come into the world. Therefore, there is a huge benefit those souls have received because Jesus came into the world. Check and mate!

 

[rlg94086]

Yes, they are events in time, but His sacrifice is present outside of time and within time. That is why at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass we can say we are not re-crucifying the Lord, rather we are re-presenting the once for all sacrific Christ made. That sacrifice was made present to all souls of the OT and to the NT era, because the saving action of the sacrifice exists outside of time and within the bounds of time where we live.

“Once and for all” or “once for all” does not mean it happened before it happened.

 

[GreenJeans]

BTW, I think you need to understand something. Everyone would be damned, even the unborn babies, if Jesus had not come into the world. We all deserve damnation, so do the unborn babies, yet it is only Jesus’ sacrifice that saves us from the torments of hell, if we respond to Him appropriately. There would have been no souls to save in hell if Jesus had not come into the world. I think the concept you, and others, are wrestling with is the fact that God works outside of time and He is aware of Jesus’ sacrifice from the beginning of time, through eternity…which is exactly why the souls of the just were held in the abode of the dead waiting for Jesus to complete what God knew He would complete.

If a one-cell human deserves damnation, what did it do to deserve such a fate? If it is capable of deserving something, why isn’t it also capable of having its life judged?

 

[Tom317]

If a one-cell human deserves damnation, what did it do to deserve such a fate? If it is capable of deserving something, why isn’t it also capable of having its life judged?

First, can we change the description to unborn baby? This one cell human description is not accurate at all.

Second, the unborn are not damned, they did nothing to merit hell. However, they also cannot receive the Beatific Vision for many reasons. That is why they are in Limbo.

 

[Tom317]

“Once and for all” or “once for all” does not mean it happened before it happened.

Again, God works outside of time, which is why the OT has hundreds of passages speaking of Jesus and His Passion and Death, etc. Once for all means once for all, before, during and after Jesus’ death and resurection.

 

[Tom317]

Fine. You win, if that makes you feel better.

Unfortunately, your argument is outside of the realm of logic. A change occurred for the just who were in the Limbo of the Fathers when Jesus became man, died, was buried and resurrected - they went to the Beatific Vision. No change occured for innocent babies.

I was teasing.

There was no change. The abode of the dead is not the same as Limbo.

 

[Tom317]

Well, then there is no difference between what happened to the single-cell human before or after Yeshua’s mission. It doesn’t matter to them. It mattered to air-breathrs, but not the single-cell humans. And it matters to air-breathers today, but not single-cell humans.

That brings up an interesting idea. If God treats single-cell humans and air-breathers differently, who are we to say they shouldn’t be treated differently?

A single-cell human did not have a life? It is alive from the very instant of conception. Why do you disrespect such a life?

(Single-cell human is a very accurate term for what I am describing. It is a fertilized egg which perishes prior to successfuly spliting into a two-cell human.)

Cease calling the person a single cell human and I will respond, I have asked twice. Absent that concession, this conversation is done.

 

[GreenJeans]

First, can we change the description to unborn baby? This one cell human description is not accurate at all.

Second, the unborn are not damned, they did nothing to merit hell. However, they also cannot receive the Beatific Vision for many reasons. That is why they are in Limbo.

I am speaking specifically of a single-cell human. What’s the problem? It’s a very accurate description.

If the single-cell human did nothing to merit hell, why did you say it deserved hell? You said, “We all deserve damnation, so do the unborn babies…”

 

[GreenJeans]

Again, God works outside of time, which is why the OT has hundreds of passages speaking of Jesus and His Passion and Death, etc. Once for all means once for all, before, during and after Jesus’ death and resurection.

Yeshua acted in time, not outside of it. The single-cell human is also inside time. It’s in Limbo prior to Yeshua, and it’s in Limbo after Yeshua. No difference.

 

[Tom317]

Yeshua acted in time, not outside of it. The single-cell human is also inside time. It’s in Limbo prior to Yeshua, and it’s in Limbo after Yeshua. No difference.

This has been a very interesting conversation, and I thank you for the time and effort. Yet, I have asked you twice to cease referring to human persons as single cell humans. You do not want to give that small conession, so I must leave the conversation. Again, thanky you and may God Bless you fully.

 

[GreenJeans]

Cease calling the person a single cell human and I will respond, I have asked twice. Absent that concession, this conversation is done.

I really don’t care if you like the term. I am describing exactly what I intend to describe and it is obviously working. Is the single cell with a complete set of human DNA a human? Is it composed of one cell? That’s why I call it a single-cell human. What is the difficulty?