Actually it is available for examination and I have downloaded a copy it is about 70 pages with all references. I am reading it slowly. Very slowly.thanks. It seems odd that we can have a discussion about a document that is unavailable to be examined. Though the topic is fasinating
I must have misread one of the much earlier posts.
So I must have been mistaken in my previous statement. But how can eternal natural happiness, deprived of the beatific vision, but with knowledge of God, be happiness? I don’t mean to “belittle” it… but I don’t see how the two could be compared. Why have a beatific vision when there is a natural eternal happiness that suffices? On the fringes of Hell, nonetheless!
They are saved, they are saved from the fires and torment of hell, you just cannot underestimate that.
I don’t underestimate it at all.
You are belittling etenal natural happiness.
BTW, as I have before, no soul would be saved if not for Jesus’ work on the cross, nor would Limbo even be a possibility. If Jesus did not save us, every soul would be condemned to hell. I would say that makes Jesus’ arrival, passion, and death, the most important event in all history–for all souls.
I belittle nothing. I am simply applying what you claim to be true.
Under your scheme it’s just an inteesting observation; it doesn’t effect them.
Yes, it does. Your point is that Jesus coming here made no difference to those souls, and I am showing you that you could not be more wrong. If Jesus did not come here, then they would be in hell.
Try to imagine if you had no pains, no health problems, no-one died, no suffering at all and you felt happy all the time. Would that be a description of torment to you? Would that situation be many levels better then what we experience in this life?
It’s not torment. That is obvious. It’s also obvius that Yeshua and his mission means nothing for the single-cell human if your claims are true.
Please, for the last time. Every soul who has ever been created would be in hell if Jesus had not come here and died for us. That includes souls before Christ and after Christ, and it also includes all souls of the unborn before and after Christ. Every single soul since the fall in the Garden would be condemned to hell if Jesus had not come here. It gets no larger then that.
Well, there is a simple test.
Wrong. Your challenge centered on the fact that Jesus came to this world to save it, and you contention was that there was/is no difference for the unborn if He came to the world, or if He did not. You are just flat wrong, unspeakably wrong. Let’s use your examples:
The only reason unborn souls went to Limbo before Jesus arrived is because Jesus’ work was imputed to their souls prior to HIs scarifice on the cross…God works outside of time, we work within it. Jesus is God, and God knew what He was going to do from and through eternity.
I did not say Christ instituted Limbo, though as God He certainly had a role (many people forget Jesus is God). I am saying that His saving work on the cross is the very thing that saved those unborn souls from hell. It has been imputed on their souls even though they lived before Christ’s sacrifice.
Can you show where the Church teaches that?
They did not go to hell because Jesus’ sacrifice applies to all souls who ever lived. Whether or not Limbo existed before or after Christ is not the point. The point is, those unborn babies would not go to hell because Christ saved everyone. It could be similar to the saints, in that they had to wait until Jesus’ sacrifice to then go to Limbo, they could have gone to Limbo directly if it existed prior to Christ, or they could have been alseep until Jesus’ sacrifice. I was merely answwering a challenge that the fate of those souls would be the same whether Jesus came or not, and that is false…all souls, boirn and unborn, would go to hell without Jesus’ sacrifice, that includes the souls before Christ, before and unborn.