Catholic Church Buries Limbo After Centuries

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He who said that “no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit” (Jn 3:5; 1986 NAB) is Love Incarnate.

One of the foundations of the concept of limbo is the necessity of the sacrament of Baptism for attaining the beatific vision. This necessity is still taught by the Catholic Church and always will be.

Keep and spread the Faith.
Well then either:

A) They have Baptism of desire. Humans have a “God gene” which compels them to seek God*, so why would a baby NOT want God.

B) God draws straight with crooked lines. (Fr. Andrew Greeley)

C) They are baptized by the rainwater, or by the Virgin mary, or the angels, or Jesus himself.

*time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101041025-725072,00.html
 
The word that is being ignored here is:

HOPE

We all need to back off and read the official information. It only says the HOPE and not the certainty of heaven. We won’t know till the time comes when we face GOD. Remember this is about the death of the pre-born unbaptized not the born unbaptized.
 
why would you? and btw, beleiving in limbo was never binding either. why do yuo choose to dissent from the Pope now?
Oh how typical. How in the world is he dissenting from the pope? You know, the only thing Pope Benedict has to do with this document is that he gave the “OK” for its publication. Many, many other popes in the past have personally taught the reality of limbo. Perhaps it’s this theological commission which is dissenting from long-standing Church teaching and the teaching of previous popes. Really, I’ll never understand the mindset of some modern Catholics. Do you think Truth can simply change on the whim of each new pope? The Catholic Church is larger than the theological opinion of the reigning pope. If he’s not delcaring something as binding, then indeed Catholics are free to disagree, especially if it’s never been taught before or appears to contradict previous teaching. And, considering this is essentially the first time in Church history that the Vatican has ever even *insinuated *that unbaptised babies don’t go to hell or limbo, I’d say we’re most certainly free to continue believing in what’s always been taught. In fact, for the sake of preserving our Catholic Faith, I’d say it’s our *duty *to ignore the never-before-heard suggestions of this modernist theological commission, which has absolutely no magisterial authority, as the Zenit article pointed out.
 
Well then either:

A) They have Baptism of desire. Humans have a “God gene” which compels them to seek God*, so why would a baby NOT want God.

*time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101041025-725072,00.html
As much as I respect Time magazine, I wouldn’t base my theology on it. Humans have Original Sin, which actually compels us towards sin and away from God. Only baptism washes away this sin. Since we’re specifically referring to *unbaptised *babies, I don’t see any reason why they’d be naturally drawn to God. That’s precisely why baptism is so important.
 
He who said that “no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit” (Jn 3:5; 1986 NAB) is Love Incarnate.

One of the foundations of the concept of limbo is the necessity of the sacrament of Baptism for attaining the beatific vision. This necessity is still taught by the Catholic Church and always will be.

Keep and spread the Faith.
Very true, yet it is clearly outlined in SCripture that in the end times a great apostasy will happen. If the Church continues to press forward with this sort of path, is that a sign of the great apostasy? [tossing out baptism, original sin, infallibility of Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium would certainly be a great apostasy]
 
I still do not see that a “hope of the possibility of unbaptized infants” has anything to do with:
tossing out baptism, original sin, infallibility of Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium would certainly be a great apostasy]
Baptism is not being ‘tossed out’. Baptism is still a requirement for salvation in the ordinary way. But, like the good thief has shown (thus demonstrating Scriptural precedent), in extraordinary circumstances, through the deliberate mercy and deliberate action of God alone, baptism may be somehow conferred in an extraordinary way, as indeed is seen in the cases of baptism by blood and baptism of desire.

Original sin likewise is not tossed out with the hope of ‘heaven’ for the 40 million victims of abortion in the U.S. as well as other innocent unbaptized. Original sin, again in the ordinary way, is the barrier to heaven in that it must be removed. But–Adam and Eve were not baptized, nor were Moses. Because they lived and died ‘before’ the Resurrection, baptism was not possible for them. Because these children are aborted–through the deliberate machinations of men and women as opposed to the ‘ordinary’ circumstances whereby in most cases these children would have been carried to term and born–it ‘may’ be --it ‘can be’ hoped that (again through God alone) there can somehow exist a chance for them to be given the opportunity for the Baptism–by water, desire, or blood–which is needed for heaven.

Scripture is not infallible, BTW but inerrant. There IS a difference. Again, the Catholic Church did not fall because millions of Protestants have mistakenly taken John 6 as ‘figurative’, nor in the ensuing 400 years has the Church varied its teaching to conform to ‘others’. Have a little faith.

Tradition has not been ‘tossed’. Limbo is a concept. So was St. Thomas Aquinas’ ‘quickening’-- If we better understand his concept now to include the accurate dating of conception as the time a new soul is given, why is it so difficult to accept that the concept of Limbo is likewise better understood. Again, we are not ‘forbidden’ to believe in Limbo for the unbaptized infants–in fact, we know that “A” Limbo exists, the Limbo of the Fathers.

And the Magesterium has not been tossed either. Various Popes have indeed taught various things but this paper is not only not ‘infallible teaching’, it is not ‘from the Pope’ himself. So please, let’s not go into “apostacy” spiraling.

We have had 2 years under Benedict and so far not only have things not gotten ‘worse’ overall (I’m thinking the U.S. church specifically here), they have gotten BETTER. . .more and more dioceses are compliant with the GIRM, vocations to the priesthood and sisterhood are going up, more and more people are coming into the church, more and more are growing better educated in their faith, are participating more, and this in spite of the still hysterical screams and misrepresentation from the MSM and the general ‘societal’ tone.

Can we please try to keep this document in proper perspective?
 
In my newspaper Rev. Richard McBrien, professor of theology of the U. of Notre Dame, said, “Baptism does not exist to wipe away the ‘stain’ of original sin, but to initiate one into the Church.”

What a bunch of garbage! This is directly opposed to Church teaching. And this guy calls himself a priest? Of course, the liberal media run with this kind of junk.
 
What is hell? Hell is eternal separation from God. If limbo lacks the presence of God, then surely, this is hell! A merciful God would never send a baby to hell. A loving God would never send a baby to hell. If limbo lacks God’s presence, and hell is the lack of God, then, surely, limbo is hell! Limbo was closed when Jesus descended to the dead.
Natural hapiness is nothing compared to the supernatural hapiness of heaven. This is hell, as it is nothing close to the hapiness of heaven.

Both of those “options” are hell, which is why a baby goes straight to heaven Why? Because a loving God would never send a baby to hell!
Yes, I’m afraid I wasn’t clear. If I understand correctly (and somebody correct me if I don’t) Limbo is *a fringe *of Hell, but Limbo is a place of natural happiness (sort of like the Earth) and not a place of suffering. They don’t suffer or feel guilty because they’ve never done anything wrong, and they don’t feel any sense of loss because they have never had any knowledge of God or Heaven. Like I said before, the only alternative seen by Catholics in the past (that I know of) is that the unbaptized babies would suffer the most minor pains in Hell, but they would in fact suffer.

But, as far as I know you, like all Catholics, are not obliged to believe in Limbo. HOWEVER what you may NOT do is say that you know unbaptized babies go to Heaven. The Church is clear, as is this document, that we can’t know this (see my prior posts.)

Also, be careful about making statements like “a loving God would never send a baby to hell!” because the belief held by most Catholics over the past 2000 years is that the unbaptized may not enter Heaven, and if this is in fact the case (which it may be), you’re judging God and saying that He is not loving.

Anyway, I hope that if the Pope does make a statement saying that it is all right for Catholics to hope for the salvation of unbaptized babies, that he also underscores the importance of baptism and its necessity for salvation.
 
I still do not see that a “hope of the possibility of unbaptized infants” has anything to do with:

Baptism is not being ‘tossed out’. Baptism is still a requirement for salvation in the ordinary way. But, like the good thief has shown (thus demonstrating Scriptural precedent), in extraordinary circumstances, through the deliberate mercy and deliberate action of God alone, baptism may be somehow conferred in an extraordinary way, as indeed is seen in the cases of baptism by blood and baptism of desire.

Original sin likewise is not tossed out with the hope of ‘heaven’ for the 40 million victims of abortion in the U.S. as well as other innocent unbaptized. Original sin, again in the ordinary way, is the barrier to heaven in that it must be removed. But–Adam and Eve were not baptized, nor were Moses. Because they lived and died ‘before’ the Resurrection, baptism was not possible for them. Because these children are aborted–through the deliberate machinations of men and women as opposed to the ‘ordinary’ circumstances whereby in most cases these children would have been carried to term and born–it ‘may’ be --it ‘can be’ hoped that (again through God alone) there can somehow exist a chance for them to be given the opportunity for the Baptism–by water, desire, or blood–which is needed for heaven.

Scripture is not infallible, BTW but inerrant. There IS a difference. Again, the Catholic Church did not fall because millions of Protestants have mistakenly taken John 6 as ‘figurative’, nor in the ensuing 400 years has the Church varied its teaching to conform to ‘others’. Have a little faith.

Tradition has not been ‘tossed’. Limbo is a concept. So was St. Thomas Aquinas’ ‘quickening’-- If we better understand his concept now to include the accurate dating of conception as the time a new soul is given, why is it so difficult to accept that the concept of Limbo is likewise better understood. Again, we are not ‘forbidden’ to believe in Limbo for the unbaptized infants–in fact, we know that “A” Limbo exists, the Limbo of the Fathers.

And the Magesterium has not been tossed either. Various Popes have indeed taught various things but this paper is not only not ‘infallible teaching’, it is not ‘from the Pope’ himself. So please, let’s not go into “apostacy” spiraling.

We have had 2 years under Benedict and so far not only have things not gotten ‘worse’ overall (I’m thinking the U.S. church specifically here), they have gotten BETTER. . .more and more dioceses are compliant with the GIRM, vocations to the priesthood and sisterhood are going up, more and more people are coming into the church, more and more are growing better educated in their faith, are participating more, and this in spite of the still hysterical screams and misrepresentation from the MSM and the general ‘societal’ tone.

Can we please try to keep this document in proper perspective?
The word that is being ignored here is:

HOPE

We all need to back off and read the official information. It only says the HOPE and not the certainty of heaven. We won’t know till the time comes when we face GOD. Remember this is about the death of the pre-born unbaptized not the born unbaptized.
You guys made some good points!👍
 
Yes, I’m afraid I wasn’t clear. If I understand correctly (and somebody correct me if I don’t) Limbo is *a fringe *of Hell, but Limbo is a place of natural happiness (sort of like the Earth) and not a place of suffering. .
St. Augustine described limbo as “the mildest form of condemnation.” newadvent.org/fathers/15011.htm
CH. 21. He said they were “damned” - but most lightly.

As a mother who lost six babies to miscarriage - that is NO comfort to me. In fact, had I been Catholic after the 2nd m/c when, after testing, it was determined that my body was more prone to miscarry - wouldn’t it had been SO SELFISH on my part to keep trying for a child? After all, there I was… sending them off to be condemed. With every single pregnancy I was taking the risk of, through no fault of the child’s mind you, that he/she would be sent to a “fringe hell.” - which is still hell. WHY take the risk? WHAT sort of mother would risk that her child would be sent to hell (through NO fault of it’s own) because SHE wants a baby so badly?

**I am so very thankful that I was not Catholic when I miscarried all those times. I can’t imagine explaining to my children rather than, “your baby brother or sister went to be with Jesus.” that “your baby brother or sister was sent to the fringes of hell.” Give me a break! **

This whole concept of fringe hell / limbo is so wacked in my opinon and I’m thrilled that I DON’T have to believe it. WHY anyone would WANT to believe it is beyond me!!! :mad:
 
The word that is being ignored here is:

HOPE

We all need to back off and read the official information. It only says the HOPE and not the certainty of heaven. We won’t know till the time comes when we face GOD. Remember this is about the death of the pre-born unbaptized not the born unbaptized.
This is very true! I think the best thing we can say about all this, in my opinion, is that what happens to unbaptized babies is a mystery. Maybe they go to Limbo, maybe they go to Heaven, or maybe they go to full-blown Hell. We DON’T know. Let’s just trust in the perfect wisdom and judgment of the Almighty and then move on to convert and baptize as many people as we can so then we CAN have more certainty about their final destination.

I think all of this underscores the importance of baptism…such a wonderful sacrament! Two babies got baptized in my parish today.👍 God bless them!
 
St. Augustine described limbo as “the mildest form of condemnation.” newadvent.org/fathers/15011.htm
CH. 21. He said they were “damned” - but most lightly.
The concept of Limbo that Augustine had is a different one than the one I was expressing, which is the theory of St. Thomas:

[.

St. ThomasAugustinian traditionPseudo-DionysiusGreekFathershumannaturerightsFallquod naturalia manent integraCatholictheologianshappiness](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14663b.htm)

I got that from this article, which explains Limbo thoroughly: newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm
As a mother who lost six babies to miscarriage - that is NO comfort to me. In fact, had I been Catholic after the 2nd m/c when, after testing, it was determined that my body was more prone to miscarry - wouldn’t it had been SO SELFISH on my part to keep trying for a child? After all, there I was… sending them off to be condemed. With every single pregnancy I was taking the risk of, through no fault of the child’s mind you, that he/she would be sent to a “fringe hell.” - which is still hell. WHY take the risk? WHAT sort of mother would risk that her child would be sent to hell (through NO fault of it’s own) because SHE wants a baby so badly?
I am so sorry for your horrible experience.😦

Take comfort that God is perfect and just, and that he is never unfair.

Once again I’m sorry for your loss and God bless you.
 
St. Augustine described limbo as “the mildest form of condemnation.” newadvent.org/fathers/15011.htm
CH. 21. He said they were “damned” - but most lightly.

As a mother who lost six babies to miscarriage - that is NO comfort to me. In fact, had I been Catholic after the 2nd m/c when, after testing, it was determined that my body was more prone to miscarry - wouldn’t it had been SO SELFISH on my part to keep trying for a child? After all, there I was… sending them off to be condemed. With every single pregnancy I was taking the risk of, through no fault of the child’s mind you, that he/she would be sent to a “fringe hell.” - which is still hell. WHY take the risk? WHAT sort of mother would risk that her child would be sent to hell (through NO fault of it’s own) because SHE wants a baby so badly?

**I am so very thankful that I was not Catholic when I miscarried all those times. I can’t imagine explaining to my children rather than, “your baby brother or sister went to be with Jesus.” that “your baby brother or sister was sent to the fringes of hell.” Give me a break! **

This whole concept of fringe hell / limbo is so wacked in my opinon and I’m thrilled that I DON’T have to believe it. WHY anyone would WANT to believe it is beyond me!!! :mad:
I am truly sorry for your pain and your loss.

Limbo is not a state on fringes of hell, it is a place of eternal happiness, just not the fullness of the Beatific Vision. I would say eternal happiness (Paradise) is a very, very good thing.
 
If an aborted or miscarried baby goes straight to Heaven to the fullness of the Beatific Vision, then it is better to be aborted, then to live because the baby is gauranteed the full Beatific Vision with God through eternity. This negates the importance of baptism for any child, negates the impact of orignal sin, negates the importance of Purgatory and places every person on earth on a path to Heaven.
Again, this is as ridiculous as saying that it is best to kill people immediately after they are baptised.
 
Baptism is or is not necessary. The Bible says it is but the Catholic Church seems to be moving in an un-Biblical direction. Evanglicals alway have claimed baptism is necessary - though their understaning of it is off I think - but this is a far more radical departure than the mis-understaning of evangelicals.
I found this particular paragraph kind of funny. What is it you believe evangelicals think happens to the unbaptized infants and children, since most of them don’t believe you should baptized until you are a teen or young adult? 😛

They certainly don’t believe in Limbo.
 
Again, this is as ridiculous as saying that it is best to kill people immediately after they are baptised.
Exactly my thoughts. What an absurd notion that not believing in Limbo will lead to abortions.
 
I am truly sorry for your pain and your loss.

Limbo is not a state on fringes of hell, it is a place of eternal happiness, just not the fullness of the Beatific Vision. I would say eternal happiness (Paradise) is a very, very good thing.
Why are others saying it is on the fringes of hell? St. Augustine described it as the “mildest” form of condemnation - but still, the babies were condemned - which doesn’t sound like Paradise. :confused:
 
Again, this is as ridiculous as saying that it is best to kill people immediately after they are baptised.
It is a lock solid argument. Heaven is where everyone wants to go, correct?

If aborted babies go straight to Heaven and the full Beatific Vision, and if born people must “work out their salvation with fear and trembling,” it does not take a genius to realize it is far better to be an aborted baby and go straight to Heaven.

Here is a better way to explain it:

Case #1. An aborted baby goes to Heaven and receives the full Beatific Vision.

Case #2. A born person lives a typical life of pain, suffering, loss, work, faith, hope, diseases, mixed with periods of joy and happiness and that person endures in their faith to the end and they receive Heaven and the fullness of the Beatific Vision. In that life they were baptized, received all the sacraments, follow Christ closely and love the Lord until their last breath.

Case #3. A born person lives a typical life of pain, suffering, loss, work, faith, hope, diseases, mixed with periods of joy and happiness and that person finds they cannot continue in their faith, they reject God, cease repenting of sins and end-up in hell after they die.

In case 1, the baby goes straight to Heaven without baptism, and without any of the redeeming suffering we go through here. In case 2, the person is baptized, receives all of the sacraments and fights the good fight throughout their life, and in the end receives exactly what the baby in case 1 received. In case 3, the person loses faith and goes to hell. Again, it does not take a genius to see that the baby in case 1 was the most fortunate of all.
 
Why are others saying it is on the fringes of hell? St. Augustine described it as the “mildest” form of condemnation - but still, the babies were condemned - which doesn’t sound like Paradise. :confused:
Because they rely only on St. Augustine.
 
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