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Tom317
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It nukes original sin and baptism, and it also nukes the Bible, Tradition, the Magisterium, the Pope and any claim of infallibility.
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rlg94086
Guest
I think you and I are going to have to agree to disagree, because I find statements like this to be absolutely ridiculous. BTW…if you noticed in Sophie’s post:
Apparently, Limbo wasn’t a very compelling explanation.
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Tom317
Guest
She also said “Amen” to my comments.I think you and I are going to have to agree to disagree, because I find statements like this to be absolutely ridiculous. BTW…if you noticed in Sophie’s post:
Apparently, Limbo wasn’t a very compelling explanation.
Think as you will, sit back and watch.
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Tom317
Guest
I think you have a problem with Limbo, and with my views because it seems brutally unfair that an unborn baby would suffer any consequence for dying before it is born. I am right about your view?I think you and I are going to have to agree to disagree, because I find statements like this to be absolutely ridiculous. BTW…if you noticed in Sophie’s post:
Apparently, Limbo wasn’t a very compelling explanation.
Tell me truly, is it fair that you and I, and all people, will die?
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carol_marie
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THAT is shameful.
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carol_marie
Guest
Tom ~ I hear what you’re saying and I understand why you think it may be a slippery slope. But you said that educated Catholics will understand that baptism is still necessary - it’s just all those other Catholics who, let’s face it, don’t know what we believe and why with regards to MUCH of the faith that are a problem. I agree. I think the Church needs to do a better job of educating everyone.
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Tom317
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I agree completely. Yet, most Catholics will never take time to learn their faith in any depth, so they fall prey to garbage that the media and non-Catholics spew every single day. While LImbo is a theory, it is still a very, very important theory because it supports the importance of baptism and orginal sin. Let’s face it, if baptism and original sin fall into a real question, then everything else does too.
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Tom317
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It is shameful because the Church should be capable of giving solice to living family members, yet it is not shameful from a doctrinal point of view.THAT is shameful.
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carol_marie
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But aren’t all of these discussion as a result of what our Pope said? Surely he wouldn’t have released the statement about limbo if it would “nuke the Bible, Tradition… …etc.”
If we believe he is guided by the Holy Spirit, shouldn’t we assume that God doesn’t want us to be worried over the fate of our preborn babies who die? He doesn’t WANT them to be buried in the “criminal” section of the cemetary?
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Tom317
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The statement comes from Catholic theologians, not from the Pope, and it is not binding in any way.
I cannot comment on what God would want regarding where a person is buried.
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carol_marie
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I respectfully disagree Tom. God has instructed us to baptize our babies. It is necessary for their salvation and we should, as in all things, obey. But it isn’t possible to baptize the unborn who die in utero. I think, God in His mercy, recognizes this and this is one of those times He isn’t held to His own Sacrements. Now who am I to speak for God? Nobody. But in my own simple mind, that’s how it works - and if I can reconcile those two things- surely most Catholics can also. If they bother to learn their faith.
I don’t think we should hold onto “limbo” just to keep the uneducated, and for the most part, unmotivated, Catholics in line.
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KathleenElsie
Guest
I was always told that LIMBO was an outer place of Heaven special for those that were not born yet but had died. I was told that it was a good place and not a place of punishment. I understood that it might not be for eternity, but to exist till the Second coming. I was also told it was not an official Church teaching. It was taught as a place of HOPE.
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carol_marie
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Oh. I thought it came from Pope Benedict.
?Well, who are these Catholic theologians? Do they make up the Magisterium? And if so, don’t they carry the same authority (to make decisions - guided by the Holy Spirit) as the Pope?
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carol_marie
Guest
Not outer place of Heaven - St. Augustine said it was “fringe of hell” and babies still suffered condemnation - albeit the least amount.
Although I’m told that other Saints had differing opinions. So if all of this is just the opinion of Saints - who were infallable - why is their opinion any better than mine?
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Chickamauga
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Where did you get the idea that Saints are infallable? Infallable in heaven? Yes. Infallable when they were were alive on earth? No. Typo?
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rlg94086
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I don’t think in terms of whether it is “fair” that we die or that innocents go to hell, so I can’t really answer your question.
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carol_marie
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Not every human. Just those humans who never had the opportunity to know Christ. Before the Muslim, before the Hindu, before all others of which we could never be 100% certain were ignorant through no fault of their own - I am CERTAIN the unborn **never ** had the opportunity.
To assume He wouldn’t send them to heaven is to assume He would send the innocent to hell. That is just impossible to reconcile with a loving God.
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carol_marie
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Opps. yes - typo
I meant to say NOT infallable. (thanks for correcting that!)
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Steve_O_Brien
Guest
In a time of terrible confusion in the human dimensions of the Catholic Church, we have to do everything we can to preserve our own faith intact and to help our fellow Catholics preserve theirs intact.
In addition to praying (especially the Rosary), we ought to study the Faith in the Magisterium-approved textbooks of the past. It’s crucial to realize that the Vatican II documents and the Catechism of the Catholic Church do not annul or supersede, but merely supplement, the older sources.
One of the best older textbooks for the average Catholic to study is Baltimore* Catechism No. 3*. Here’s what that authoritative textbook says about limbo in question 324:
“Children should be baptized as soon as possible because Baptism is necessary for salvation. Infants who die without baptism of any kind do not suffer the punishments of those who die in mortal sin. They may enjoy a certain natural happiness, but they will not enjoy the supernatural happiness of heaven.”
"A certain natural happiness” is limbo.
“Where can I get a copy of Baltimore* Catechism No. 3*?” Google that title to find online sources for ordering a copy. Do this today.
Keep and spread the Faith.
In addition to praying (especially the Rosary), we ought to study the Faith in the Magisterium-approved textbooks of the past. It’s crucial to realize that the Vatican II documents and the Catechism of the Catholic Church do not annul or supersede, but merely supplement, the older sources.
One of the best older textbooks for the average Catholic to study is Baltimore* Catechism No. 3*. Here’s what that authoritative textbook says about limbo in question 324:
“Children should be baptized as soon as possible because Baptism is necessary for salvation. Infants who die without baptism of any kind do not suffer the punishments of those who die in mortal sin. They may enjoy a certain natural happiness, but they will not enjoy the supernatural happiness of heaven.”
"A certain natural happiness” is limbo.
“Where can I get a copy of Baltimore* Catechism No. 3*?” Google that title to find online sources for ordering a copy. Do this today.
Keep and spread the Faith.
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Tom317
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I understand your view, yet it is dangerous imo. It leads to us thinking that all people can be saved by God, if God desires. While that is a tre thought, it is not one that God has revealed to us. We MUST stick to what God told us, not what we think God would do.
Limbo, or something like it, must remain because it tells Christians that there is a consequence for not being baptized, no matter what the circumstances.
We are not Adam and Eve, we were not there when they fell and commited the first and original sin. It was there sin that lead to all humans suffering the consequence of death. Many, many people argue that a just God would never cause all people to die just because two people sinned, yet the fact that we die proves that God’s declared consequence was invoked upon all humans.
Similarily, it seems to us that it is unjust for unborn babies to not go to the Beatific Vision in Heaven, because we have great love for the babies and we “want” them to go there. Yet, God said “unless we are born of water and spirit we cannot enter the kingdom of God.” When Jesus (God) said that, He did not qualify His statement, He was brutally clear. Unless one is born of water and spirit (Baptized), they cannot enter the kingdom.
Limbo proposes a hope/theory saying that those babies will not go to hell, they will not go to Heaven because they were not baptized, yet they might go to a place often known as Paradise, a place of eternal happiness. Some people have felt that Limbo is where the thief on the cross went, not to the Beatific Vision, but to Paradise, a place of eternal happiness,. but not the fullness of the BV. Limbo supports the truth of baptism and original sin for all people, not just for those uneducated in the faith.
We must not try to tell God what He will do. We must assume Jesus (God) meant it went He said we must be baptized. As Catholics we often defend the Real Presence by using John 6 as a proof text, and we say that Jesus let the people leave His side even though His teachings were harsh. It is the same with baptism.
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