Catholic Church founded by Jesus?

[Buzzard3]

Did Jesus play the favorite sect game

No, but he does have a favourite Church - ie, the only one he founded and built on Peter.

There are more than a few instututional Christian churches today.

But they all teach different doctrines - which Church is the “pillar and foundation of the truth” (1Tim 3:15)?

Which Church is the "fullness of Christ (Eph 1:22-23)?

 

[mcq72]

Doesn’t that put a lot on one’s plate?

What is too much for a disciple of Christ?

Not to fully trust in the Church?

Since when does “fully trust” mean set the discerning Spirit aside and not “verify”?

No, but he does have a favourite Church

Pure sectarianism.

Which Church is the "fullness of Christ

Most think their church has it a bit fuller than elsewhere.

 

[mcq72]

Why did Paul go to the Church leaders in Jerusalem to settle a doctrinal dispute with Barnabas? Paul was an apostle - surely he had he authority to settle any doctrinal dispute - but he didn’t, he deferred to the Church leaders

Why didn’t he just defer to Peter?

 

[mcq72]

Jesus did not give the “keys of the kingdom of God” to “the twelve”, but only to Peter.

Did the apostles get it, “only to Peter”, for they argued several times afterwards who would be the greatest, or sit at His right hand? And how can we forget Jesus give them all keys to forgive sins or not?

What did Peter do with those “keys”?

He definitely used them, as did the other apostles.

so they ( keys) must still exist -

Yes, but we have different understanding of such existence.

In whose hands are they?

Well more importantly they are still in His hands also, along with control of our lampstands.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Not even Anglicans?

Perhaps as institution but not when it comes to beliefs. Same applies to reformers.

Lineage has to be in truth and spirit, and not just institutionally.

Exactly. And there wasn’t such lineage if any Protestant denomination is right.

 

[Montrose]

Did the apostles get it, “only to Peter”, for they argued several times afterwards who would be the greatest, or sit at His right hand? And how can we forget Jesus give them all keys to forgive sins or not?

Peter was given the keys to the kingdom (head of the Church on earth) which included the power to forgive sins. The other Apostles were given the power to forgive sins but were not given the keys.

 

[ArchStanton]

Since when does “fully trust” mean set the discerning Spirit aside and not “verify”?

Trust in the Church…

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the RULE OVER YOU, and SUBMIT yourselves : for they watch for your souls , as they that must give account , that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you

Eph 3:10 so that the manifold WISDOM of God might now be made known THROUGH the CHURCH to the principalities and authorities in the heavens.

1 Tim 3:15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God , which is THE CHURCH of the living God, the PILLAR AND FOUNDATION OF TRUTH

 

[Glenn]

and it can’t claim to have unbroken lineage of people following it.

Not even Anglicans? What, did some reformers come out Buddhism, or Islam? Were they not in full Catholic lineage before any reform?

The apostles and first church were in full lineage to the salvation that was of the Jews, to father Abraham, and Moses, to the disgruntlement of the established authorities who also claimed authentic lineage, but were only in the flesh, and not in spirit.

Lineage has to be in truth and spirit, and not just institutionally.

This is a good point. It seems that the “institutional” perspective was not the most important for either Jesus or the apostles. Neither was it liturgical. It was a matter of Spirit and Truth. We know that the term “catholic” was first used by Ignatius, but that can easily be understood as meaning “to the ends of the earth,” a distinction from a Jewish-centric salvation–and not a reference to a particular “visible” manifestation of the Church.

The Church is indeed universal. Peter was indeed the chief of the apostles. The Church is indeed the “pillar and foundation of the truth.” Much of the liturgy of the early Church Fathers certainly has a Catholic flavor. But when Jesus said, “I will build my Church,” did he mean a single visible instantiation centered in the city of Rome, or his universal mystical body (the Church militant, suffering, and triumphant), with many visible manifestations.

I understand that there are goats among the sheep, and there are many false shepherds. I understand that Protestantism is plagued by a lack of clear authority. (I also understand that there is serious doctrinal strife within modern Catholicism as well.) But in my personal wrestling with these issues, the only answer I have at this point in my Christian walk is that the final authority is simply the Word made flesh, through his Spirit indwelling his mystical Body. The Scripture and the Church are his instruments.

But how do we know which visible manifestations of the Church are teaching the Truth? Ultimately, I think only God knows who is and who is not in the kingdom. I don’t know that any Christian denomination (including Catholic and Orthodox) is 100% correct on every doctrine. But even the Catholic Church confesses that the doctrines necessary for salvation exist within Protestant circles. And since our understanding of Truth is progressive (growing organically from within the Church rather externally from without), we are all on the same journey–toward a complete and final knowledge of the Truth.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

I don’t know that any Christian denomination (including Catholic and Orthodox) is 100% correct on every doctrine.

I guess that leads to all other differences then. We trust that Holy Spirit succeeded in guarding Faith to be pure and passed down as pure. In the end, Satan is father of all lies and as such we don’t believe he was successful in infiltrating Church doctrine which is “pillar and foundation of Truth”.

But even the Catholic Church confesses that the doctrines necessary for salvation exist within Protestant circles.

There aren’t necessarily doctrines that are necessary for salvation. Knowledge doesn’t save us. We believe Church is Ark of Salvation and we wan’t to reach destination with Her.

And since our understanding of Truth is progressive (growing organically from within the Church rather externally from without), we are all on the same journey–toward a complete and final knowledge of the Truth.

That is true, but we must all be aware of where we are going. As you stated, there are many false Prophets and we know who is father of all that is false.

 

[mcq72]

Knowledge doesn’t save us. We believe Church is Ark of Salvation and we wan’t to reach destination with Her

The church doesn’t save us either. Yet salvation is of the church, and “my people perish for lack of knowledge” if " they do not listen" to knowledge from afar off (God), who " opens the ear to hear".

It is God who saves, thru Christ , as revealed even preached by nature, by man( church) and Scriptures.

So as Mary doesn’t save us but rather points to the Savior, so to the church doesn’t save but points to the Savior.

 

[Horton]

The Church is indeed universal. Peter was indeed the chief of the apostles. The Church is indeed the “pillar and foundation of the truth.” Much of the liturgy of the early Church Fathers certainly has a Catholic flavor. But when Jesus said, “I will build my Church,” did he mean a single visible instantiation centered in the city of Rome, or his universal mystical body (the Church militant, suffering, and triumphant), with many visible manifestations.

Much of the liturgy of the Early Church Fathers is the same liturgy used today. Of course there have been minor changes that do not change the effect, such as the language used, (from Latin only to the vernacular since VII). But the celebration of the Mass is essentially the same. Liturgy of the Word followed by Liturgy of the Eucharist, using unleavened bread and pure grape wine, using sacred vessels of fine materials, the prayers, the fact that the consecrated bread & wine is truly the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ which must be protected from any form of abuse, all of that is the same as from the beginning.

Did you know that every Roman Catholic church worldwide proclaims the same readings everyday? That Roman Catholic Mass is so similar worldwide that you can walk into any RC Church for Mass and know what is happening. Even if you don’t understand the language, if you are familiar enough with the Mass you can participate.

So when talking about the Catholic Church, the universal Church, it’s not just a set of beliefs we share, it’s not an independent church which happens to be Catholic. It is one Catholic Church with parishes worldwide so we, the body of Christ, can collectively participate in the Mass. I can go to Mass at St Peter’s Basilica or to a small station church of a parish with six families and I would still be participating in the same Mass.

The Scripture and the Church are his instruments .

This is it exactly!

But how do we know which visible manifestations of the Church are teaching the Truth?

We just have to go back to the beginning. We have biblical proof Jesus gave Peter the authority over the Church. We also know it was one church, not many. Even though there are scriptures using the plural of church at times, one has to take into consideration there were no other Christ based (Christian) churches in existence at that time. When scriptures refers to churches, they are referring to what we would now probably call diocese.

But even the Catholic Church confesses that the doctrines necessary for salvation exist within Protestant circles.

The Catholic Church acknowledges Protestant churches have truth in their doctrines but not complete truth. As I convert I know this to be the case. In my conversion nothing went against my Protestant background but I finally learned what had been missing from my faith, like I had only partial truth.

 

[Horton]

The church doesn’t save us either. Yet salvation is of the church, and “my people perish for lack of knowledge” if " they do not listen" to knowledge from afar off (God), who " opens the ear to hear".

But this knowledge comes through the Church, through the history of Christianity. We all know the Church in and of itself does not save. Only God saves. The best place to encounter God is with his Church and through the sacraments.

It is God who saves, thru Christ , as revealed even preached by nature, by man( church) and Scriptures.

So as Mary doesn’t save us but rather points to the Savior, so to the church doesn’t save but points to the Savior.

It sounds as though you are starting to come around to believing in what we are saying.

 

[Justin_Mary]

The Scripture and the Church are his instruments .

But how do we know which visible manifestations of the Church are teaching the Truth?

I’d go with the Church that gave us the Bible.

 

[mcq72]

But this knowledge comes through the Church, through the history of Christianity. We all know the Church in and of itself does not save. Only God saves. The best place to encounter God is with his Church and through the sacraments

Yes, of the church, its commissioned disciples. “For God so chose that by the foolishness of preaching man be saved.”

Not sure Jesus capitalized “ecclesia/ church”…perhaps a product of necessary sectarianism.

We preach an historical event, with more to come, as the center of the gospel. Yet it is conditional whether any historical applications, developments thru time are true to the original commission. So history cuts both ways but Calvary should not.

I do not believe in sacramental salvation being original as we know it today.

It is natural to want and try to put the move of the Spirit amongst us in a box, or formula, or sacrament. That is what Peter wanted to do at transfiguration.

 

[ArchStanton]

I do not believe in sacramental salvation being original as we know it today.

Pretty strong statements by Our Lord on this Sacrament [Eucharist]…

John 6 - Jesus said to them, “ Amen, amen , I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you DO NOT HAVE LIFE within you . [ vs 54 ] Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life , and I will raise him on the last day. [ vs 55 ] For MY FLESH IS TRUE FOOD , and my blood is true drink. [ vs 56 ] Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him .

 

[mcq72]

John 6 - Jesus said to them, “ Amen, amen , I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you DO NOT HAVE LIFE within you . [ vs 54 ] Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life , and I will raise him on the last day. [ vs 55 ] For MY FLESH IS TRUE FOOD , and my blood is true drink. [ vs 56 ] Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him .

Would you then say one does not have spiritual eternal life until 3 things happen, believe, be baptized, and then receive holy communion? I have never heard that one needs communion to be saved. I have heard it is a mortal sin if you dont receieve at least once a year.

Augustine said leave your teeth and belly behind, that we eat Him spiritually when we believe, as per Peter’s confession on whom the Lord is.

Do you think Mary had to wait until her first Eucharist, after Pentecost, to receive eternal life…or the apostles etc?

 

[mcq72]

Trust in the Church…

Like the Bereans , trust and verify, especially when the ecclessia is sectarian.( Please correct me if by church you mean the Roman Catholic Church exclusively).

 

[Buzzard3]

Why didn’t he just defer to Peter?

Maybe he did.

My understanding is, in Catholicism, the Pope doesn’t act alone on important matters such as doctrine - he consults other bishops, but it is he who makes the final decision.

 

[Buzzard3]

Did the apostles get it, “only to Peter”, for they argued several times afterwards who would be the greatest, or sit at His right hand? And how can we forget Jesus give them all keys to forgive sins or not?

The “keys” were given to Peter only, whereas the power to forgive sins was given to more than just one person.

 

[Horton]

Would you then say one does not have spiritual eternal life until 3 things happen, believe, be baptized, and then receive holy communion? I have never heard that one needs communion to be saved. I have heard it is a mortal sin if you dont receieve at least once a year.

You misunderstand the concept. The Bread of Life Discourse explains exactly what Jesus expects of us. Our faith teaches us we must be baptized, receive our first holy communion and be confirmed as the sacraments of initiation. We should receive the Eucharist once a year but it is not a mortal sin if one does not. There are people who receiving communion would be a mortal sin as they are not in a state of grace to receive.

Do you think Mary had to wait until her first Eucharist, after Pentecost, to receive eternal life…or the apostles etc?

We are obligated to follow the rules, God is not. As Mary and the Apostles were together with the beginnings of the Church I’m sure they did receive the Eucharist.