H
Havard
Guest
What do dead babies have to do with individual rights? .
…Unless you support Roe v. Wade?
[Not meant directed at you, personally, I assume you do not.]
- Status
…Unless you support Roe v. Wade?
[Not meant directed at you, personally, I assume you do not.]
E
estesbob
Guest
He was preferable to the only other choice facing the Spanish-a communist dictatorship.
R
Rich_Olszewski
Guest
They were all swine. I find it appalling that any Catholic could approve of Franco, who waged war on the United States by sending an army to fight a critical ally of ours.
And, as a Polish-American, I find the resistance of the Poles and the Catholic Church in Poland to communism and its dictators admirable and something to be proud of, at the same time that the Spaniards and their clergy were bootlicking fascist Franco.
R
Rich_Olszewski
Guest
There was another choice - fight Franco and fight the communists. The Spaniards were apparently not up to it.
A
AdvanceAlways
Guest
Bravo to the Spanish Catholic Church! I’m so sick of the TradCatholic/fascist Catholic glorificiation of Franco. The man was a tyrant. And to the poster who brushed off individual rights when compared to abortion… you can be Catholic and believe in God given individual rights and liberties and be opposed to abortion.
Fascists, communists - born to lose.
Fascists, communists - born to lose.
H
Havard
Guest
Well hey, if you are Catholic and against abortion, you’re by definition pro-individual rights. The rights of the baby!
T
torch621
Guest
Both sides were uniformly evil. On the one hand, you had a Nazi-lover who slaughtered thousands of dissenters, on the other, bloodthirsty Reds who tried to destroy the Faith in Spain and LIKEWISE slaughtered thousands of dissenters. Neither side is worthy of anyone’s support. To say otherwise is relativism, which stands condemned just as much as communism and fascism.
Though, I will admit it sickens me that the Spanish Reds who ruled the “Republic” are lionized by today’s liberal media and left-wing activists. Sad
Though, I will admit it sickens me that the Spanish Reds who ruled the “Republic” are lionized by today’s liberal media and left-wing activists. Sad
R
Rich_Olszewski
Guest
They deserve no more lionization than do the Fascists by ultra right-wing or “traditionalist” Catholics. The end result, in any case, is a wholly secular Spain.Though, I will admit it sickens me that the Spanish Reds who ruled the “Republic” are lionized by today’s liberal media and left-wing activists. Sad
E
estesbob
Guest
The end of communism in Poland has a lot more to do with Ronald Reagan that it does the Polish people. They tolerated communism for 50 years
R
Rich_Olszewski
Guest
It was the Poles who endured and fought against the forces of communism. Solidarity and the Pope and the workers of Poland did it. It was the boots on the ground, or shoes on the ground in this case, that turned the tide. It was the Poles, not Reagan who faced tanks and armed soldiers. No rifles were aimed at him. It was Fr. Popieluszko, not the rightwing apparachiks in the White House who was martyred and who was beatified.
If I said the half of what I think of Reagan, it would get me banned for life from this Forum. But, I won’t say anything and invite you to believe what you want - the Easter bunny, the Tooth Fairy, Ronald Reagan as Savior of Western Civilization, Santa Claus, Batman, and such.
A
Adeodatus
Guest
That’s another one for the “don’t [pee] in my ear and tell me it’s raining” file.
Secularism in Spain is the result of Modernism, socialism and liberalism. Both from the enemies of the Church, and from within it.
R
Rich_Olszewski
Guest
AND, a disgust with the role the right wing Church and the clergy played in their recent history - unlike the role the Church played in recent Polish history. Tell me about the modernism and liberalism in Poland - there, yes, but not much of an influence.
E
estesbob
Guest
Was Auschwitz an example of the Poles enduring?. How many death camps did Franco allow on Spanish soil? How many Spaniards worked in death camps? Perhaps the Polish people would have been much better off had Franco been in charge.
If not for Ronald Reagan Poland would still be a puppet of the Soviet Union’s. My former pastor was raised Poland and came to the United States in 1998 to go to the seminary. You criticized Reagan in his presence at your own risk
R
Reservoir_Dog
Guest
Forced labor camps in franco’s spain …
If I were RC, I’d be doing my best to keep the words “Catholic” and “franco” as far apart as possible.
J
JaMc
Guest
After slogging through this thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=400868
I don’t think I ever want to see or hear the name “Fransico Franco” again for the rest of my life… :takethat:
I don’t think I ever want to see or hear the name “Fransico Franco” again for the rest of my life… :takethat:
E
estesbob
Guest
Are you really comparing forced labor camps to gassing 12 million people? Do you believe that Spain would have been better off if the Communists had won?
R
Reservoir_Dog
Guest
Spain under the Second Republic – a constitutional government, by the way, and of total irritation to you only because of the anti-clerical articles, – 20 and 21, but you’d have to look them up – probably wouldn’t have murdered the upwards of 200,000 that franco killed off in the White Terror. That’s a worthwhile trade off.
I’m not following your “only” argument. Are you claiming that franco’s slave labor camps and penal battalions weren’t so bad as hiter’s therefore they are or should be Church Approved?
You Catholics get in bed with the strangest people.
E
estesbob
Guest
Would Spain have been better off if the Communists had won the Civil War?
I
inocente
Guest
Don’t know, but one of the things some posters are missing is that the reaction isn’t simply about the civil war era but about the following decades of unrelieved tedium and bureaucracy that any dictatorship brings to the fiesta.
Freedom tastes sweeter than wine but after thirty years of democracy the Church here still hasn’t managed to throw off its association with an authoritarian past. In that sense the thread’s title is inaccurate – maybe it’s just me but the Church here seems to have gone into a bunker rather than fighting to change either itself or its image. I’m not a Catholic but Benedict’s theology is excellent and possibly his latest chart topper Verbum Domin, rallying the Church around a living God and a living scripture, may do the trick but I’m not holding my breath!
R
Reservoir_Dog
Guest
Hard to say what course the coalition government of the Second Republic would have taken, it might have repealed the secularization articles on its own, it might have stayed neutral in WW2 or taken an active role against the Axis powers, it probably wouldn’t have raised the 50,000 soldiers, airmen and SS exterminators that franco contributed. The White Terror was bad*, and surely the Church did not approve.
You really need to ask yourself why anti-clericalism was such as strong movement. Did the Spanish Church ally itself with the prior military dictators? Did it oppose political and agrarian reform? Hated doesn’t suddenly erupt for no reason.
I don’t follow this franco lovefest. He had a human rights record that’s appalling. Does or did the RCC approve of this? Isn’t it a rule in your church that someone can excommunicate himself by his actions? How much carnage are you willing to ignore?
- This estimate ranges up to 400,000 killed by franco. Richards, Michael. A Time of Silence: Civil War and the Culture of Repression in Franco’s Spain, 1936-1945. Cambridge University Press. 1998. p.11
- Status