Catholic Church Position on Immigration

[Rightlydivide]

What I’m getting about this law is that whatever it is, but it’s plainly dumb. If you produce a driver’s license, they stop looking, even though you may be here illegally. If a police man stops you while driving, you need to show ID (as if you didn’t before…). What exactly does this law do? As far as I’m seeing nothing…but instead its causing anguish to many people who may be profiled because of their race, who are legally here. You can say as much as you want that profiling is illegal, but individual officers bring in their own prejudice and the very nature of this law attests to its subjectivity.

Who cares? If they have to produce proof 40 times and it keeps one illegal entry out…its worth it.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Frankly…I not a supporter of the Republicans or Democracts, I find both parties all about their own pathetic parties interest. Both have burned out their welcome, it is time for major change and centralizing the massive beaucracy.

Nothing will change until our government is reformed internally and with our laws.

Centralizing, what do you mean?

 

[PeaceSerenity]

Who cares? If they have to produce proof 40 times and it keeps one illegal entry out…its worth it.

Yeah, but there has to be a more efficient way of doing it. If they catch 1/40 illegal immigrants, then it’s a waste of tax money. Plus, it puts legal immigrants through unnecessary hell. If you’re upset at illegal immigrants, go ahead, be that way, but don’t waste money and time on something that doesn’t work, and that hurts people.

 

[MelanieAnne]

What I’m getting about this law is that whatever it is, but it’s plainly dumb. If you produce a driver’s license, they stop looking, even though you may be here illegally. If a police man stops you while driving, you need to show ID (as if you didn’t before…). What exactly does this law do? As far as I’m seeing nothing…but instead its causing anguish to many people who may be profiled because of their race, who are legally here. You can say as much as you want that profiling is illegal, but individual officers bring in their own prejudice and the very nature of this law attests to its subjectivity.

The point of the Arizona law is basically to enforce the Federal Immigration Law because the Federal Government is not doing their job and the people of Arizona got frustrated.

Similar laws exist in other states, including California, but those laws are being ignored by the Administration. Isn’t that strange? Obviously they are singling out Arizona for some particular reason.

There is nothing about racial profiling in the Arizona law, in fact racial profiling is specifically banned. The business about racial profiling is false information being spread by people who have no concern about immigrants but wish to use them to promote their own political power.

Every law can be misused by law enforcement. When that occurs, the person who misuses the law should be disciplined. That’s no reason not to have laws. In the case of the Arizona Law, which mirrors Federal law, racial profiling is specifically banned. In that way, the Arizona Law is even LESS likely to result in racial profiling than the Federal Law, which has no such ban.

It’s really too bad there is so much misinformation about this issue being circulated. All the misinformation does nothing to help any immigrant. But the Administration clearly has no concern about immigrants except to use them as political pawns.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Yeah, but there has to be a more efficient way of doing it. If they catch 1/40 illegal immigrants, then it’s a waste of tax money. Plus, it puts legal immigrants through unnecessary hell. If you’re upset at illegal immigrants, go ahead, be that way, but don’t waste money and time on something that doesn’t work, and that hurts people.

Oh I can find ways to save money, do not confuse proper law enforcement with budgetary constraints brought on by overspending. Its not going to hurt anyone. We have all been pulled over, me a lot, and had to produce DL and insurance papers.

 

[PeaceSerenity]

Oh I can find ways to save money, do not confuse proper law enforcement with budgetary constraints brought on by overspending. Its not going to hurt anyone. We have all been pulled over, me a lot, and had to produce DL and insurance papers.

Obviously a lot of things can save money, but I can’t stand it when people sing praises to a law that does probably more harm than good and wastes money just a pet peeve

 

[Rightlydivide]

Um…how do you know it does more harm than good again? I probably missed that.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Obviously a lot of things can save money, but I can’t stand it when people sing praises to a law that does probably more harm than good and wastes money just a pet peeve

So are you opposed to the Federal Immigration Law too? Since it is identical to the Arizona law? (except that the Federal Law doesn’t ban racial profiling.) Should we do away with the Federal Law too?

Since the Federal law is almost the same as the Arizona law, except for the fact that the Federal law lacks the safeguards against racial profiling, do you believe the Federal law also does more harm than good? The Federal law is certainly more likely to result in racial profiling than the Arizona law. So should we get rid of the Federal law?

Since any law can be mis-used, should we just do away with all laws?

 

[PeaceSerenity]

So are you opposed to the Federal Immigration Law too? Since it is identical to the Arizona law? (except that the Federal Law doesn’t ban racial profiling.) Should we do away with the Federal Law too?

Since the Federal law is almost the same as the Arizona law, except for the fact that the Federal law lacks the safeguards against racial profiling, do you believe the Federal law also does more harm than good? The Federal law is certainly more likely to result in racial profiling than the Arizona law. So should we get rid of the Federal law?

Since any law can be mis-used, should we just do away with all laws?

Racism - The law says “a law enforcement official…may not solely consider race, color, or national origin…”, but race does remain a part of the decision, even if not the sole reason to make that decision. Everyone has their prejudice, and at the point where the law says “where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present”, can you guess what will be the initial trigger for that suspicion? I don’t object to all laws, just the ones that are ridiculously open ended.

This law is really, like ridiculously, open-ended: “a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person…”, a reasonable attempt…whenever we have time…yeah, right

The federal law specifically doesn’t ban racial profiling because it is banned in general by the federal government…Brown v Board…Civil Rights Cases…

 

[MelanieAnne]

Racism - The law says “a law enforcement official…may not solely consider race, color, or national origin…”, but race does remain a part of the decision, even if not the sole reason to make that decision. Everyone has their prejudice, and at the point where the law says “where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present”, can you guess what will be the initial trigger for that suspicion? I don’t object to all laws, just the ones that are ridiculously open ended.

This law is really, like ridiculously, open-ended: “a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person…”, a reasonable attempt…whenever we have time…yeah, right

The federal law specifically doesn’t ban racial profiling because it is banned in general by the federal government…Brown v Board…Civil Rights Cases…

Every law can be misapplied. That’s my point. That’s no reason not to have laws.

I’ve said what I have to say. I don’t think any of this helps the immigrants in question, and isn’t that the real point? The demagoguery of the Administration on this issue is obnoxious in my opinion. But I’ve got to get some work done this afternoon, so I’ll be checking out for quite a while now.

 

[Nicea325]

Centralizing, what do you mean?

Elimination of certain offices,positions,etc. Government is way to big. Our forefathers founded this country similiar to the Roman Republic. But look what happended to that republic? Failure to address major issues and eventually dictatorships.

 

[rev_kevin]

We have discussed this for a while and got no where. The only thing accomplished here is that some say some are against hispanics, my city is bigger then your’s, the Arizona law is shameful, Arizona was the last state to have to celebrate MLK, we need to feed the hungry and help the needy, the word racist and so on, but no solutions, just bickering back and forth among us. What do we do? How do we solve this problem? We know there are millions of illegals among us and more and more coming in. We know that the drug cartel are crossing our borders as well as the mexican millitary. Or border patrol officers are under attack {caught on camera}, U.S. citizens being murdered on their own property by illegals, Stealing people’s ID, SSN’s, {ID theft} kidnappings by cartel in our country, prostesting in our country on our streets demanding the same rights as a U.S. citizen, being a burden on our schools and hospitals to the point of going bankrupt, and the list goes on.
So what is the solution to all this?
Its our country, no matter how we got it, its ours.
Anybody have any real answers to solving this problelm?
Remember there is a difference between legal immagrants and illegal immagrants. Lets not confuse the 2 or put the 2 into one.

 

[Nicea325]

We have discussed this for a while and got no where. The only thing accomplished here is that some say some are against hispanics, my city is bigger then your’s, the Arizona law is shameful, Arizona was the last state to have to celebrate MLK, we need to feed the hungry and help the needy, the word racist and so on, but no solutions, just bickering back and forth among us. What do we do? How do we solve this problem? We know there are millions of illegals among us and more and more coming in. We know that the drug cartel are crossing our borders as well as the mexican millitary. Or border patrol officers are under attack {caught on camera}, U.S. citizens being murdered on their own property by illegals, Stealing people’s ID, SSN’s, {ID theft} kidnappings by cartel in our country, prostesting in our country on our streets demanding the same rights as a U.S. citizen, being a burden on our schools and hospitals to the point of going bankrupt, and the list goes on.
So what is the solution to all this?
Its our country, no matter how we got it, its ours.
Anybody have any real answers to solving this problelm?
Remember there is a difference between legal immagrants and illegal immagrants. Lets not confuse the 2 or put the 2 into one.

You know Rev Kevin,you are correct. Bottomline is simple: The issue must tackled and resolved or else all the bickering will continue.

 

[PeaceSerenity]

Well, I don’t know too much about the effectiveness of building big walls or expanding the immigration police, but I think one long-term solution would be to invest in the development of Mexico. If we could help fight the drug problem, fight the corruption problem there, then people would have an opportunity at a better life without crossing the border. Of course, the best way to do that would be if American’s stopped taking drugs, which would shove an immediate blow that would weaken the cartels enough for the army/police to make some sort of overthrow…I think . I think America has tried the isolationist thing many times, before both the world wars, and found it impractical…and then they had an ocean between themselves and the problem. We need to be very careful with our neighbors because, obviously, they can cause many problems. By helping the country of mexico, we would not only be adding to the security and safety of our citizens, but improving the lives of many people.

Unfortunately…illegal immigration has given Hispanics such a bad rap that I’m not sure this would be possible. One of the reasons I was so quick to judge Rev Kevin (a little hastily too, I apologize) for racism was because I used to live in Texas and you don’t know how many times I’ve heard “It’s not that I’m racist, but I don’t like Hispanics…Hispanics are bad news”. I think many Americans look at the cover of things, and aren’t willing to spend money on something that seems like it helps others more than themselves, which in the case of helping Mexico, I believe the opposite is true.

In terms of what we can do individually to solve the problem…that’s for each to decide. I visited an orphanage down in Tijuana this summer, and those people are doing marvelous work. An average person in Mexico gets a 5th grade education, and this orphanage is sponsoring these kids through college (two of the boys are in law school now), it’s beautiful

 

[kimmielittle]

The federal law specifically doesn’t ban racial profiling because it is banned in general by the federal government…Brown v Board…Civil Rights Cases…

Actually, when the Naturalization and Immigration Federal law ] was written in 1940 Brown v Board nor Civil Rights cases existed… This is the law that Arizona mirrors.

As far as Drivers license …Look up Home Land Security requirements for Social Security cards / numbers. Or the Social Security Requirements. ssa.gov/pubs/10002.html .

In effect, you are providing Birth Certificate…etc etc To obtain
A Social Security Number…to get A Drivers License.

To apply for a Social Security number and card:

• Complete an Application For A Social Security Card (Form SS-5); and
• Show us original documents or copies certified by the issuing agency proving:
• U.S. citizenship or immigration status [including Department of Homeland Security (DHS) permission to work in the United States];
• Age; and
• Identity.

    Then, take or mail your completed application and documents to [your local Social Security office](http://www.ssa.gov/locator/). 
   ** Citizenship or immigration status: **We can accept only certain documents as proof of U.S. citizenship. These include a U.S. birth certificate, U.S. consular report of birth, U.S. passport, Certificate of Naturalization or Certificate of Citizenship. If you are not a U.S. citizen, Social Security will ask to see your current U.S. immigration documents. Acceptable documents include your:

• Form I-551 (includes machine-readable immigrant visa with your unexpired foreign passport);
• I-94 with your unexpired foreign passport; or
• Work permit card from the Department of Homeland Security (I-766 or I-688B).

    International students must present further documentation. For more information, see *[International Students And Social Security Numbers ](http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/10181.html)*(Publication No. 05-10181). 
   ** Age: **You must present your birth certificate if you have it or can easily obtain it. If not, we can consider other documents, such as your passport to prove age. 
   ** Identity:** We can accept only certain documents as proof of identity. An acceptable document must be current (not expired) and show your name, identifying information and preferably a recent photograph. Social Security will ask to see a U.S. driver’s license, state-issued nondriver identification card or U.S. passport as proof of identity. If you do not have the specific documents we ask for, we will ask to see other documents including:

• Employee ID card;
• School ID card;
• Health insurance card (not a Medicare card);
• U.S. military ID card;
• Adoption decree;
• Life insurance policy; or
• Marriage document (only in name change situations).

   ***All documents must be either originals or copies certified by the issuing agency. We cannot accept photocopies or notarized copies of documents.***We may use one document for two purposes. For example, we may use your U.S. passport as proof of both citizenship and identity. Or, we may use your U.S. birth certificate as proof of age and citizenship. ***However, you must  provide at least two separate documents. ***
    We will mail your number and card as soon as we have all of your information and have verified your documents with the issuing offices....................

**Are there different types of cards? **

    We issue three types of Social Security cards. All cards show your name and Social Security number.

• The first type of card shows your name and Social Security number and lets you work without restriction. We issue it to:
• U.S. citizens; and
• People lawfully admitted to the United States on a permanent basis.

• The second type of card shows your name and number and notes, “VALID FOR WORK ONLY WITH DHS AUTHORIZATION.” We issue this type of card to people lawfully admitted to the United States on a temporary basis who have DHS authorization to work.
• The third type of card shows your name and number and notes, “NOT VALID FOR EMPLOYMENT.” We issue it to people from other countries:
• Who are lawfully admitted to the United States without work authorization from DHS, but with a valid nonwork reason for needing a Social Security number; or
• Who need a number because of a federal law requiring a Social Security number to get a benefit or service.

When you are asked to present your License…it is “Run Thorough” NCIC …including name.,Social Security Number …age.

Yes, Illegals can prtesent a Social Security Number…Usually from Identity Theft

​

 

[kimmielittle]

Generally speaking, If you present a valid Social Security Card / Number as part of your identification…You are carrying proof of Birth…Age…Immigration Status.

 

[PeaceSerenity]

Generally speaking, If you present a valid Social Security Card / Number as part of your identification…You are carrying proof of Birth…Age…Immigration Status.

What I was trying to demonstrate was that this doesn’t account for all illegal immigrants, because a large number of them were here legally at one time (with a visa) and so were able to get a SSN, so they can get a drivers license. That’s how almost all the illegal immigrants that are NOT from Mexico, get into the US. So…the new law basically only targets Hispanic immigrants.

 

[Contarini]

W
Its our country, no matter how we got it, its ours.

This is a morally bankrupt premise.

Sure, it’s your country. But you have no absolute right to it simply because you managed to conquer it from the indigenous peoples who were here first. That is simply the right of the strongest, which is meaningless before God.

Hence, you should act with great charity and humility toward those whom you perceive as stealing “your” land.

This is basic Christian morality, just as much as opposition to abortion or the defense of monogamous heterosexual marriage is.

No one owns anything absolutely. Everything is the gift of God, to be used for His glory and the good of our neighbors.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

No MLK. Thats common knowledge.

It’s common right-wing mythology, sure.

Any evidence?

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Yes we should help the needy, but even Jesus went according to the law of the land.

Didn’t he say give to Ceaser what is Ceasers and to God what is God’s.

Yes, he was talking about the filthy pagan money that had Caesar’s idolatrous image stamped on it

If its the law of the land then you go by it.

That’s not traditional Christian teaching. St. Thomas Aquinas said that an unjust law is no law at all. The law is there to serve the common good–it is not an end in itself.

Edwin