Catholic Church reformation

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Michael, I didn’t leave the Church precisely because I was well catechized. The East had little allure for me and even less now that I’ve seen what happened on these forums.

The Holy Father recognized the need. And he is adressing it. Reform? Why? We’ve had the reform for the last 40 years. No, we need to sit back and look at what we threw out 40 years ago in our attempt to reform. Baby got thrown out with the bathwater. I remember and I’m not the only one.
I have no argument with you, and I did not bring up the east, you did.

You have a Protestant here, giving advice about Mormonism.

What happened here on these forums that makes the east less attractive to you? And what has that got to do with a Protestant writing about Mormonism?

Michael
 
I see you’ve jumped on another opportunity to display your disdain for Roman Catholics.
This is uncalled for.

I have no disdain for Roman Catholics.

But the Roman Catholic church has a mess on it’s hands for sure. Don’t ask me, look around this forum. Roman Catholics are the church’s own biggest critics, would you call that disdain?

Michael
 
What theology school did you get your degree from? The priest is a conductor? Leading a symphony? His back to the people is rude?
The Mass is a sacrifice, Not a concert.
Do you disagree with this quote?

" a common turning to the East during the Eucharistic Prayer remains essential. This is not a case of accidentals, but of essentials. Looking at the priest has no importance. What matters is looking together at the Lord. It is not now a question of dialogue, but of common worship, of setting off towards the One who is to come. What corresponds with the reality of what is happening is not the closed circle, but the common movement forward expressed in a** common direction for prayer"**
I have no opinion on your quote. Nor do I want to have an opinion on it.

As a boy of 8, or as a grown man, I always felt it was rude for the Priest to have his back turned away from us, even in his readings of the Epistle, Gospel and prayers. Like our understanding didn’t matter.

There are some indefensible things about the old Roman rite, so why are you defending them.

Ring the bells at the “Hanc Igitur” to warn the uneducated that we were about to enter into the Consecration. Why is that necessary. We should hear and know when the Consecration is about to take place - if we could hear it in our own language, and see it with our eyes, we’d know.

As for my theology degree? Why do you want to know? Do I know what degrees you have, and what they are in, and question them being awarded to you?

It’s really none of your business.

peace
 
Almost every Cathlic parish I’ve been a member of offers both these things. It’s up to the individual to take advantage of them and to educate himself about his faith (or educate his children). Don’t blame the Church for the actions of lazy people.

Grandma says “you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink”.

The whole premise of this thread is rather unscientific since we have no proof that there’s currently any mass exodus from the Church to Mormonism.
Didn’t you read the letter I recieved from this very forum? I’m not asking you to take my word for it.
 
I think you are getting stuck on definitions. Most churches built in this country were built where the aisle runs from west to east, or (orient, if you insist). In this rite you are describing, even is the aisle ran to the south, it still wouldn’t matter since the Mass would have it so that the priest has his back to the people. So, he faces the south, and the people face the south. He is still out of touch with the people - that is the point.
No I’m not getting stuck on definitions, the name of the posture (facing away from the people) is ad orientem. Whether or not the church building faces east is irrelevant (they used to be constructed in that manner, to face Jerusalem).
Regardless of what rite you are using, the priest should be leading the people in prayer, facing them. A conductor in a symphony faces the musicians. That is what the priest is, if you will, a conductor, leading. His back to the laity is purely rude to me.
Since the Church says that both versus populum and ad orientem are equally correct, your opinion regarding the matter is irrelevant. The priest faces the altar, where Christ will be called down to be made present in the Eucharist, i.e. versus Deum per Iesum Christum (toward God through Jesus Christ).

In new (Novus Ordo) churches, the altar is generally built to be freestanding, away from the wall, to support a versus populum posturing to allow the faithful to see what is happening on the altar. If the altar is attached to the back wall of the church building, wouldn’t it be far more rude for the priest to turn his back on God? He should be leading the people facing the Lord. After all, the priest isn’t praying to the people, he is praying to the Lord.

Far too many Catholics get bent out of shape over these trivialities and miss the really important part - Jesus Christ becomes present, literally, during the Mass. I suppose you may be different, but I don’t go to Mass to look at the priest or other members of the congregation, I go to receive Jesus Christ’s very body, blood, soul, and divinity into my body. I personally don’t care if the priest says Mass while standing on his head, I’m not there for the priest.

As I suggested earlier, read the book Turning Towards the Lord. The priest who wrote it was called to work in Rome by Pope Benedict XVI (basically as a result of his authoring the book).
 
No I’m not getting stuck on definitions, the name of the posture (facing away from the people) is ad orientem. Whether or not the church building faces east is irrelevant (they used to be constructed in that manner, to face Jerusalem).

Since the Church says that both versus populum and ad orientem are equally correct, your opinion regarding the matter is irrelevant. The priest faces the altar, where Christ will be called down to be made present in the Eucharist, i.e. versus Deum per Iesum Christum (toward God through Jesus Christ).

In new (Novus Ordo) churches, the altar is generally built to be freestanding, away from the wall, to support a versus populum posturing to allow the faithful to see what is happening on the altar. If the altar is attached to the back wall of the church building, wouldn’t it be far more rude for the priest to turn his back on God? He should be leading the people facing the Lord. After all, the priest isn’t praying to the people, he is praying to the Lord.

Far too many Catholics get bent out of shape over these trivialities and miss the really important part - Jesus Christ becomes present, literally, during the Mass. I suppose you may be different, but I don’t go to Mass to look at the priest or other members of the congregation, I go to receive Jesus Christ’s very body, blood, soul, and divinity into my body. I personally don’t care if the priest says Mass while standing on his head, I’m not there for the priest.

As I suggested earlier, read the book Turning Towards the Lord. The priest who wrote it was called to work in Rome by Pope Benedict XVI (basically as a result of his authoring the book).
Churches were oriented to the east because they faced east. It has nothing to do with Jerusalem.

Please provide some source for saying that toward the people or toward the east are equal. As for as my opinion, to me it is important.

Why is it that Traditionalists don’t like anyone criticizing the old rite and supporting the new. I love the old rite, I really do, personally. But, for the masses, I think orienting the altar toward them is important. I also prefer Masses in the vernacular for the people.

The priest who authored that book: he is in Rome as a punishment? I don’t quite understand your point.

peace
 
Didn’t you read the letter I recieved from this very forum? I’m not asking you to take my word for it.
There are no statistics in it. It could be a well-intentioned evangelizing tool from a trustworthy source, but it doesn’t prove much, and it doesn’t really try to.

Did you never belong to a Catholic parish that offered adult bible studies and VBS for kids?

The article starts out saying that Catholics don’t know their own faith (some do some don’t, and I think it depends on parents and our own initiative once we become adults). But then it goes on to present a lot of information about Mormonism. It presents nothing about these parts of the Catholic faith that it says Catholics don’t know. So which is it…do we not know Catholicism, or do we not know Mormonism?
 
As an altar boy, we HAD to know the first words of each one, to be ready with the bells…and back then as a kid, the five dreaded words were…“We come to you Father…”

oooooooooohhhhhhhhh, noooooooooooooo…he’s doing the LONG one 🙂
The servers in my parish always forget the epiclesis bell when the priest uses the Roman Canon. 😦
 
There are no statistics in it. It could be a well-intentioned evangelizing tool from a trustworthy source, but it doesn’t prove much, and it doesn’t really try to.

Did you never belong to a Catholic parish that offered adult bible studies and VBS for kids?

The article starts out saying that Catholics don’t know their own faith (some do some don’t, and I think it depends on parents and our own initiative once we become adults). But then it goes on to present a lot of information about Mormonism. It presents nothing about these parts of the Catholic faith that it says Catholics don’t know. So which is it…do we not know Catholicism, or do we not know Mormonism?
The post you are referring to is actually quoting from a brochure published by Catholic Answers. I have reason to believe that Mr. Keating has his facts correct.
 
As a boy of 8, or as a grown man, I always felt it was rude for the Priest to have his back turned away from us, even in his readings of the Epistle, Gospel and prayers. Like our understanding didn’t matter.
Heavens! He’s not “got his back to you”; he’s leading you to the Altar.

And besides, whilst there is an element of active participation the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is fundamentally confected by the Priest.

And also, at a High Mass, the Epistle and Gospel are not said away from you.
Ring the bells at the “Hanc Igitur” to warn the uneducated that we were about to enter into the Consecration. Why is that necessary. We should hear and know when the Consecration is about to take place - if we could hear it in our own language, and see it with our eyes, we’d know.
I’d still rather hear the bell than not. In many a (non-TLM) Mass I’ve been to it would’ve aided matters to have a bell then too. Plus there is the practicality - what about very large Churches. I still say it serves a purpose, and not one of deprecation of the “uneducated”(!).
If the altar is attached to the back wall of the church building, wouldn’t it be far more rude for the priest to turn his back on God? He should be leading the people facing the Lord. After all, the priest isn’t praying to the people, he is praying to the Lord.
I’ve always thought something similar but rather because of the Tabernacle being on the back wall often. What is the point of facing the altar, but having one’s back to the tabernacle? Or facing the tabernacle and having one’s back to the altar? Therefore the only logical position is a conjoined position.
 
I agree. I wish the local parishes here would have a Bible Study in the middle of the week. Some have it for an hour before church on Sundays, but I think it would have better attendance if it were held on a weekday evening.
My parish has 3 or 4 Bible studies every week. Fr. Walsh does one on Wednesday morning and one on Wednesday evening. I’m not sure when the other one or two are held, Fr. Simon does them.
 
Deja vu all over again! Wasn’t that what Vatican II was all about?
And look what that got us!!

Actually, I’m only teasing. Remember what Pope Benedict said while he was still Cardinal Ratzinger?

Roughly it was this:
We don’t know if Vatican II will work because nobody’s tried it yet.

No the Church does not need to be reformed. What it needs is to implement Vatican II the way the Counsel meant for it to be implemented.
 
Churches were oriented to the east because they faced east. It has nothing to do with Jerusalem.
Actually it does, in his book The Spirit of the Liturgy, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict) discusses the ancient tradition of facing east towards Jerusalem, towards the site of Christ’s resurrection. Perhaps the Pope is wrong?
Please provide some source for saying that toward the people or toward the east are equal. As for as my opinion, to me it is important.
Sacrosanctum Concilium (The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy)
adoremus.org/0405LiturgicalPrayer.html
cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=55976

and the book I have recommended three times now: Turning Towards the Lord

Pope Benedict recently celebrated Mass ad orientem, thus demonstrating its properness: cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=55933 and ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=85148

The majority of the text of Turning Towards the Lord is included in the link I provided, I seriously recommend reading it. If you don’t want to read the entire book, at least read the foreward by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, it discusses the very issue you are debating.
Why is it that Traditionalists don’t like anyone criticizing the old rite and supporting the new. I love the old rite, I really do, personally. But, for the masses, I think orienting the altar toward them is important. I also prefer Masses in the vernacular for the people.
I don’t consider myself to be a Traditionalist, I consider myself to be a Roman Catholic. I attend Novus Ordo Masses, I do like being able to see what is going on at the altar, and I like hearing the readings in my native tongue. On the other hand I do like singing common chants (Sanctus, Agnus Dei) in Latin (and the Kyrie in Greek) but I don’t have a problem singing in English or Spanish, etc. However, it is important to understand what the important part of Mass is, it isn’t us or the priest, it is Jesus Christ.
The priest who authored that book: he is in Rome as a punishment? I don’t quite understand your point.
No, not as a punishment but because he so highly regarded his work. Pope Benedict considered the book to be such a significant work that he wanted Fr. Lang to work for him directly.
 
And look what that got us!!

Actually, I’m only teasing. Remember what Pope Benedict said while he was still Cardinal Ratzinger?

Roughly it was this:
We don’t know if Vatican II will work because nobody’s tried it yet.

No the Church does not need to be reformed. What it needs is to implement Vatican II the way the Counsel meant for it to be implemented.
And I agree and having read Brotherhrolf post, I think he agrees with this.👍
 
I’ve always thought something similar but rather because of the Tabernacle being on the back wall often. What is the point of facing the altar, but having one’s back to the tabernacle? Or facing the tabernacle and having one’s back to the altar? Therefore the only logical position is a conjoined position.
Oh, I wasn’t even trying to make that as a point. Yours is definitely have a strong argument. At the same time, Christ is going to be present on the altar too, so he would be facing towards and away from Christ at the same time?!?! Now I have a headache 😛
 
Actually it does, in his book The Spirit of the Liturgy, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict) discusses the ancient tradition of facing east towards Jerusalem, towards the site of Christ’s resurrection. Perhaps the Pope is wrong?

The majority of the text of Turning Towards the Lord is included in the link I provided, I seriously recommend reading it. If you don’t want to read the entire book, at least read the foreward by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, it discusses the very issue you are debating.
Have you read works by Monsignor Klaus Gamber?
He wrote of Liturgical changes coming about as a result of Vatican 2.

I understand Ratzinger wrote a preface to one of his works. Maybe Gamber is not of the Traditionalist mode?

peace
 
Oh, I wasn’t even trying to make that as a point. Yours is definitely have a strong argument. At the same time, Christ is going to be present on the altar too, so he would be facing towards and away from Christ at the same time?!?! Now I have a headache 😛
Sorry we misunderstood each other. 👍

Yes, it gives me such a headache too; that’s why I am more comfortable seeing the altar and tabernacle at the same place!

At Pluscarden Abbey (almost 1,000 years old in parts) they have the Blessed Sacrament reserved in a small chapel off the main Abbey Church. But the two are joined by a ‘slit’ you can look through if you’re in the visitors’ part. The problem I had there the first time was working out where I was genuflecting and where I was bowing!
 
=mgrfin;3304845]I have no opinion on your quote. Nor do I want to have an opinion on it.
As a boy of 8, or as a grown man, I always felt it was rude for the Priest to have his back turned away from us, even in his readings of the Epistle, Gospel and prayers. Like our understanding didn’t matter.
There are some indefensible things about the old Roman rite, so why are you defending them.
Like what?
Ring the bells at the “Hanc Igitur” to warn the uneducated that we were about to enter into the Consecration
.
You say “warn” I say “announce”

As for facing the East. Would you care to comment on this?
Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger - The Spirit of the LiturgyThe Altar and the Direction of Liturgical Prayer
adoremus.org/0500-Ratzinger.html

…Despite all the variations in practice that have taken place far into the second praying toward the East is a tradition that goes back to the beginning. Moreover, it is a fundamental expression of the Christian synthesis of cosmos and history, of being rooted in the once-for-all events of salvation history while going out to meet the Lord who is to come again. …millennium, one thing has remained clear for the whole of Christendom: The liturgical renewal in our own century took up this alleged model and developed from it a new idea for the form of the Liturgy. The Eucharist, so it was said, had to be celebrated versus populum (towards the people). The altar – as can be seen in the normative model of Saint Peter’s – had to be positioned in such a way that priest and people looked at each other and formed together the circle of the celebrating community. This alone, so it was said, was compatible with the meaning of the Christian Liturgy, with the requirement of active participation. This alone conformed to the primordial model of the Last Supper.
These arguments seemed in the end so persuasive that after the Council (which says nothing about “turning to the people”) new altars were set up everywhere, and today celebration versus populum really does look like the characteristic fruit of Vatican II’s liturgical renewal. In fact it is the most conspicuous consequence of a re-ordering that not only signifies a new external arrangement of the places dedicated to the Liturgy, but also brings with it a new idea of the essence of the Liturgy – the Liturgy as a communal meal…This is, of course, a misunderstanding of the significance of the Roman basilica and of the positioning of its altar, and the representation of the Last Supper is also, to say the least, inaccurate…Once again let me quote Bouyer:
“Never and nowhere before (that is, before the sixteenth century) is there any indication of the slightest importance being attached, or even attention given, to the question of whether the priest should celebrate with the people behind him or in front of him. Professor Cyril Vogel has proved that, “if anything was stressed, it was that the priest should recite the Eucharistic Prayer, like all other prayers, turned towards the East Even when the orientation of the church allowed the priest to pray facing the people, we must not forget that it was not just the priest who turned to the East, but the whole congregation with him”
As one of the fathers of Vatican II’s Constitution on the Liturgy, J.A. Jungmann, put it, it was much more a question of priest and people facing in the same direction, knowing that together they were in a procession toward the Lord.
Turn to the East is essential
On the other hand, a common turning to the East during the Eucharistic Prayer remains essential. This is not a case of accidentals, but of essentials. Looking at the priest has no importance. What matters is looking together at the Lord. It is not now a question of dialogue, but of common worship, of setting off towards the One who is to come. What corresponds with the reality of what is happening is not the closed circle, but the common movement forward expressed in a common direction for prayer…
 
Why not Bible study for adults and Vacation Bible school for kids…its fun?

PS Not really directed at you Ken, but I do not want to argue religion so don’t waste your time writing a well thought out arguement I likely won’t read it or reply. My purpose is just to offer food for thought. What is so offensive in what I suggest?
Where have you been? Every parish in my area has VBS and Bible Study. We have 3 Bible Studies going on at my parish right now. We have Small Christian Communities that meet every week. We have Adult Faith Formation, RCIA, prayer groups, Christian Formation, book discussions, Evangelization, a Parish Renewal program, a directed retreat, Novenas, Adoration, Youth Ministry, 2 Masses every day, a well-stocked library, missions, concerts…I could go on and on. Not to mentions soup kitchens, jail visitations, sick visitations and a hundred other ministries. This is not unusual in Catholic Parishes. I could go around my Diocese and find parish after parish doing the same things.

What is offensive is that you have assumed Catholics don’t do these things. You never bothered to check things out.
 
The post you are referring to is actually quoting from a brochure published by Catholic Answers. I have reason to believe that Mr. Keating has his facts correct.
I certainly never said I don’t trust Karl’s credentials or that he is telling the truth. But he does not present any hard statistics. It’s an educational brochure about Mormonism.

At one point he does state that half of converts to Mormonism are Catholic. Is that a million people a year? 10 people a year?

What I’m saying is that this brochure is not enough evidence to indict every Catholic parish on its educational standards.
 
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