Catholic Clergy and Their Puzzling Support for Liberal Parties and Candidates

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barnestormer":
(Medical bankruptcy is an entirely different issue.).
Not according to the Republicans. A poor family saddled with tens of thousands of dollars of medical debt is treated the same as someone who ran up those thousands on a credit card doing some high living.
 
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Richardols:
Same vis-a-vis the Republicans. I understood one document from the bishops as saying that one can vote for a pro-abortion candidate of either party as long as one is not voting for that candidate for his pro-abortion stance.
Uh no! What you are referring to is in the case of two candidates being pro-death it is then permissable as a tie breaker to vote for one that will invoke less harm.
 
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Genesis315:
Yes, Social Welfare is good, but I’m not sure if the Democrats have the answer either.

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Only if it doesn’t serve to enslave the recipients. Slavery is out.
 
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MikeWM:
And there are useful things (for example the Family and Medical Leave Act) that the Republicans opposed and the Democrats passed under Bill Clinton. It’s amazing - you give even pretty weak support to women to help raise their family in a reasonable way, and - by coincidence? - the abortion rate falls.

Voting is a difficult calculus. Who knows how many lives were saved or lost because Clinton won the presidency? It is far from a trivial question. And short of a party that promises to do away with abortion[1] on day 1, voting remains a complicated question.

Mike

[1] Do away with abortion, yes. Which isn’t the same thing as do away with legal abortion, by any means.
Family and Medical leave act is an appeasement law due to the failure of society to allow woman to stay at home rather than work. (JPII agrees by the way) I see it as a band-aid approach.
 
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st.jerome:
I like what you say, but I’d have to qualify that statement.

Republicans want to cut taxes–that, you might say, is their highest, most lofty goal. Every other issue finds its place after this first requirement is met. So, while we might all want the same things, Republicans first want to keep their money to themselves. No longer does the govt. have the money to safeguard these issues, we must now trust the affluent to make the right choices.

The Democrat way is simple: we furnish the money and the govt. furnishes the programs.
Republicans want to return the decision making to the people - as in “We, the people…”
 
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buffalo:
Republicans want to return the decision making to the people
You mean they’re considering giving up their favored plutocracy? That would be news.
 
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buffalo:
Uh no! What you are referring to is in the case of two candidates being pro-death it is then permissable as a tie breaker to vote for one that will invoke less harm.
Pro-death as in pro-abortion and pro-death penalty, of course.
 
The good news in all of this is that most of the milennial bishops and priests as well as most seminarians these days are quite conservative (or at least not leftist activists). The washed-up hippie clergy are old and slowly disappearing.
 
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st.jerome:
The Democrat way is simple: we furnish the money and the govt. furnishes the programs.
Wow—it’s just that simple.

Obviously you haven’t studied public policy much, or history for that matter.

Keep on pipe-dreaming.
 
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barnestormer:
The good news in all of this is that most of the milennial bishops and priests as well as most seminarians these days are quite conservative (or at least not leftist activists).
I’d rather see an orthodox episcopacy these days than one that is merely conservative (rightist) or leftist.
 
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buffalo:
Family and Medical leave act is an appeasement law due to the failure of society to allow woman to stay at home rather than work. (JPII agrees by the way) I see it as a band-aid approach.
I said it was weak, clearly I wasn’t saying it was the best thing since sliced bread. I said even with weak things like this, the abortion rate simultaneously came down. If we were really to support family life properly, who knows how low we can get it through social justice alone.

Mike
 
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st.jerome:
The Democrat way is simple: we furnish the money and the govt. furnishes the programs.
And these programs work, of course. That’s evidenced by the fact that there is no more poverty, sickness, crime, homelessness, child abuse…

Oh wait, I forgot—government programs will work if we just give them a little bit more money, if we just put the right people in charge. Yeah right.

Government keeps asking for a bigger share of my meager income through direct and indirect taxation, and the problems in this country only continue. Look at Europe: marginal tax rates in excess of 70% sometimes, and are they free of social ills? Take a walk through the red light district of Amsterdam and then answer that question for me. No, statism has not solved anything in Europe, but they’ve got 15% uneployment. Certainly a model worth emulating!
 
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Richardols:
I’d rather see an orthodox episcopacy these days than one that is merely conservative (rightist) or leftist.
Very true. Certainly orthodoxoy of the faith is more important than one’s political leanings. But in my experience the two often go hand-in-hand. 99% of the orthodox bishops, priests, and seminarians I know are also politically conservative (though they vary in how vocal or politically extroverted they are).

There seems to be a link between conservatism and orthodoxy, a link in terms of frame of mind, worldview, and understanding of the human person.
 
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Richardols:
Pro-death as in pro-abortion and pro-death penalty, of course.
The Pope says not to compare the two. Abortion and Euthanasia stand alone. No other issues are their equal.
Kerry was abortion on demand. Bush was rape, incest and life of the mother. Proportionate reason means a Bush vote would be allowed even though he is in favor of some abortions.
War, poverty, death penalty and all other issues added together do not carry the same weight as abortion and euthanasia.
 
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geojack:
The Pope says not to compare the two.
No, the Pope allows that the death penalty but under such narrow circumstances as to make its application wholly meaningless.
War, poverty, death penalty and all other issues added together do not carry the same weight as abortion and euthanasia.
You may so believe.
 
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Richardols:
You may so believe.
He is correct. Abortion and euthanasia are intrinsically evil, the others are not. This is Catholic teaching.
 
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buffalo:
He is correct. Abortion and euthanasia are intrinsically evil, the others are not. This is Catholic teaching.
You hit the nail on the head. The “seamless garment” argument flies square in the nose of Catholic teaching. Not all life issues are of equal weight. The pope and bishops have made it clear that the Faithful can disagree on the death penalty and sundry other issues, but abortion and euthanasia are not among them.
 
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barnestormer:
the Faithful can disagree on the death penalty
How can they possibly disagree in light of John Paul’s statements and the Catechism statement that the circumstances warranting use of the death penalty are so restricted as to make its use effectively unjustifiable? There’s no wiggle room there.

Today, there is therefore a “seamless garment.”
 
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Richardols:
How can they possibly disagree in light of John Paul’s statements and the Catechism statement that the circumstances warranting use of the death penalty are so restricted as to make its use effectively unjustifiable? There’s no wiggle room there.

Today, there is therefore a “seamless garment.”
The difference is that there are potential circumstances where the death penalty is allowed—it’s just that those circumstances are not around here and now. JPII and the Catechism made that very clear.

Abortion, on the other hand, is an intrinsically evil act that is NEVER justified under any potential circumstances whatsoever. Can you not see the difference between “effectively unjustifiable” and “intrinsically evil”? It’s pretty straightforward.

So much for your seamless garment.
 
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barnestormer:
The difference is that there are potential circumstances where the death penalty is allowed—it’s just that those circumstances are not around here and now. JPII and the Catechism made that very clear.
Sure, and absent “those circumstances that are not around here and now,” it’s effectively forbidden.
Can you not see the difference between “effectively unjustifiable” and “intrinsically evil”? It’s pretty straightforward.
Your distinction reminds me of the debate over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. You find it straightforward, I find it meaningless.
So much for your seamless garment.
Not at all. This is when we Catholics ought not to be seen as allowing exceptions to a consistent across-the-board pro-life philosophy.
 
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