Catholic.com presidential poll

[Sy_Noe]

I think it is an important article to read for a deeper understanding of the views of this bishop. Let me post the link:

priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/kicanas-synod.htm

One interesting point is that Bishop Kicanas questions whether a legislator voting for pro-choice legislation is formal cooperation with evil.

BISHOP KICANAS: One is, what is the level of cooperation involved in a legislator voting for legislation that encourages, or allows, intrinsically evil acts? Is that formal cooperation, or isn’t it? That’s a critical question, because if it is formal cooperation, then serious consequences flow from it.

[snip]

INTERVIEWER: Do you think there’s a consensus in the conference on whether a pro-choice vote [in the legislature], in itself, amounts to formal cooperation?

No, I’m sure there isn’t. There may not be anything the conference itself will be able to decide on that issue. It’s really a larger question.

So, while some around here will claim that voting for a pro-choice politician is formal cooperation with evil, here is a bishop questioning whether a pro-choice vote in the legislator amounts to formal cooperation with evil and admits there is no consensus among the bishops on the issue.

Perhaps that explains why Forming Consciences isn’t specific enough (there is no consensus among bishops) and they insist on looking at other works instead that say what they want to hear such as voter guides from organizations not run by bishops.

It’s worth remembering that the vote approving the document was overwhelming (210-21 with 5 abstentions), so there are bishops that are not happy with this document and may provide quotes that are contradictory to it because they do not support it. That, of course, is their prerogative as bishops.

I only know I found Bishop Kicanas’s interview interesting in comparison to what I had read around here. I think too since you mentioned it, perhaps another important point to make in regard to other works and voter guides from organizations not run by bishops is what the bishops have said about such guides:

“During election years, there may be many handouts and voter guides that are produced and distributed. We encourage Catholics to seek those resources authorized by their own bishops, their state Catholic conferences, and the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.”

usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/forming-consciences-for-faithful-citizenship-part-one.cfm

And from what I gather, unless I misundersand, this “Catholic Answers” site is one such laity-run organization which has previously produced such a guide, the use of which was discouraged by the bishops.

catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=31706

 

[Sy_Noe]

I’m fascinated at the Catholic-Trump Love here. Fascinated…

I guess because Trump is now the presumptive Republican nominee, is maybe why I’m less fascinated at his support here. It is noteworthy I suppose though that right at this moment that I am typing, he is at less than 50%. But barely.

 

[estesbob]

I only know I found Bishop Kicanas’s interview interesting in comparison to what I had read around here. I think too since you mentioned it, perhaps another important point to make in regard to other works and voter guides from organizations not run by bishops is what the bishops have said about such guides:

“During election years, there may be many handouts and voter guides that are produced and distributed. We encourage Catholics to seek those resources authorized by their own bishops, their state Catholic conferences, and the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.”

usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/forming-consciences-for-faithful-citizenship-part-one.cfm

And from what I gather, unless I misundersand, this “Catholic Answers” site is one such laity-run organization which has previously produced such a guide, the use of which was discouraged by the bishops.

catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=31706

Please tell us what your interpretation of what Bishop Kincanis’s interview is and where such an interpretation is backed up by any other member of the Magestrium. I dont see where he has contradicted any of the quotes and documents we have provided on this issue.

 

[estesbob]

I guess because Trump is now the presumptive Republican nominee, is maybe why I’m less fascinated at his support here. It is noteworthy I suppose though that right at this moment that I am typing, he is at less than 50%. But barely.

Latest poll shows him 5 points up on Hillary

rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/elections/election_2016/white_house_watch

 

[Sy_Noe]

Please tell us what your interpretation of what Bishop Kincanis’s interview is and where such an interpretation is backed up by any other member of the Magestrium. I dont see where he has contradicted any of the quotes and documents we have provided on this issue.

I think Crossbones has already spoken well in regard to the interpretations and opinions of everyone here and those of Burke and Kicanas and other bishops.

 

[estesbob]

I think Crossbones has already spoken well in regard to the interpretations and opinions of everyone here and those of Burke and Kicanas and other bishops.

Actually no one has perhaps you can tell us? No interpretation,BTW, was needed for what I posted .

 

[Sy_Noe]

Latest poll shows him 5 points up on Hillary

rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/elections/election_2016/white_house_watch

I’ve known Rasmussen and FOX for that matter, to be accused of Republican bias. But whether or not they are, I’d nevertheless be more inclined to put more stock into national polls after the conventions and even more so after Labor Day and into the fall, as both campaigns kick into higher gear closer to the general election and as Hillary and the Democratic Party get to focus more on Trump after the Democratic Party primary process is completed, and especially after the autumn debates between Sec Clinton and Trump. Those later polls might be better gauges as to how the election will go than now 6 mos out. In addition I’m more inclined to pay attention to the Electoral College map and demographics of the electorate. But I understand any poll showing Trump with a lead in the nationwide vote over Hillary Clinton or any Democrat for that matter will be exciting to the CAF faithful. I actually expect the popular vote to be close considering how divided our nation remains.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Please tell us what your interpretation of what Bishop Kincanis’s interview is and where such an interpretation is backed up by any other member of the Magestrium. I dont see where he has contradicted any of the quotes and documents we have provided on this issue.

I can’t say this is the case in this instance, but I think a lot of people have difficulty wrapping their minds around what really comes down to the teaching authority of the Church. Relativism is very prevalent in this society and has been growing since probably the early 1900s. As a result, people don’t even realize there is a difference between immutable “principles” as taught by the Catholic Church and the subjective 'values" many or most people think are the proper tests of the decisions they make.

 

[josephback]

I don’t adore a constitution. I adore God.

No one fits my credentials. I’m a Catholic Pro-life Socialist.

Good position. The number of people willing to vote Trump after his public statements is baffling. Party trumps faith it would seem.

 

[twf]

Good position. The number of people willing to vote Trump after his public statements is baffling. Party trumps faith it would seem.

Yep, its very difficult for non-American Catholics to fathom. A vile, vulgar, rude, obnoxious man who has openly supported intrinsically evil acts… definitely a case of party trumping faith. People like “package deals”. Abortion and gay marriage are true evils we are combating in the West…and somehow along the way many of us have adopted the whole “conservative” package even where it is at odds with the magisterium. I can’t imagine even a single US bishop supporting Trump…especially with their strong views on immigration matters. Of course no Catholic could support Hilary either…but you can’t support one evil to oppose another. Catholic moral teaching condemns the principle of “the end justifies the means”. If I were an American, my conscience would force me to sit out the presidential election and focus on candidates I could support at other levels - congressmen, senators, state governors / representatives…

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

I guess because Trump is now the presumptive Republican nominee, is maybe why I’m less fascinated at his support here. It is noteworthy I suppose though that right at this moment that I am typing, he is at less than 50%. But barely.

Maybe we need a new poll. The one from this OP is from before Trump took a firm position on a very pro-Catholic position. Now that we know more definitively where he stands on the Supreme Court nominee (although it was somewhat known before, his position was during the primary season, and holds a bit more weight post-primary and is more solidified than before).

 

[Sy_Noe]

Yep, its very difficult for non-American Catholics to fathom. A vile, vulgar, rude, obnoxious man who has openly supported intrinsically evil acts… definitely a case of party trumping faith. People like “package deals”. Abortion and gay marriage are true evils we are combating in the West…and somehow along the way many of us have adopted the whole “conservative” package even where it is at odds with the magisterium. I can’t imagine even a single US bishop supporting Trump…especially with their strong views on immigration matters. Of course no Catholic could support Hilary either…but you can’t support one evil to oppose another. Catholic moral teaching condemns the principle of “the end justifies the means”. If I were an American, my conscience would force me to sit out the presidential election and focus on candidates I could support at other levels - congressmen, senators, state governors / representatives…

It is interesting to see how this election is seen thru the lenses of non-American faithful Catholics.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Good position. The number of people willing to vote Trump after his public statements is baffling. Party trumps faith it would seem.

Oh, not at all.

Some things about Trump are known; certainly his occasional boorishness is. Some are fairly well known or believed, like the kinds of people he would appoint to the Supreme Court. Some are not known at all, like how exactly he would deal with ISIS.

But in similar manner, some things are known about Hillary Clinton. She supports abortion on demand. She started one war, exacerbated another by running guns, put terrorists in power in three separate theaters. That’s known. It’s known that she accepted very large sums of money from very questionable sources and appears to have done favors for them at about the same time. Some things are not at all known, like whether she would really be as socialist as she now says she would be in order to beat Sanders.

I, for one, can accept boorishness before I can accept warmongering and corruption in office, and I suspect a lot of people can. It’s not really all that mysterious.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Maybe we need a new poll. The one from this OP is from before Trump took a firm position on a very pro-Catholic position. Now that we know more definitively where he stands on the Supreme Court nominee (although it was somewhat known before, his position was during the primary season, and holds a bit more weight post-primary and is more solidified than before).

Maybe. If any position when it comes to Trump can be defined as firm.

 

[Xpiatio]

I’m hoping that voting for Trump will spur some sort of reset to take place. I’m willing to go down that road in hopes of a better outcome will result in the long run. I think he will be a catalyst of an awakening. Not because I support everything he says, but because I think he will divisive. Perhaps it will spur on a “reset” of some sort.

 

[Sy_Noe]

I’m hoping that voting for Trump will spur some sort of reset to take place. I’m willing to go down that road in hopes of a better outcome will result in the long run. I think he will be a catalyst of an awakening. Not because I support everything he says, but because I think he will divisive. Perhaps it will spur on a “reset” of some sort.

I thought many Catholics and Republicans considered Obama divisive and a flaw. So you want more? Granted I don’t think it is really going to matter when it comes to divisiveness either way though. The Hillary bashers will still be bashing her if she is elected and the Trump opponents will oppose him. We remain a nation divided politically.

 

[pnewton]

I guess because Trump is now the presumptive Republican nominee, is maybe why I’m less fascinated at his support here. It is noteworthy I suppose though that right at this moment that I am typing, he is at less than 50%. But barely.

Good position. The number of people willing to vote Trump after his public statements is baffling. Party trumps faith it would seem.

This is a Catholic board. More to the point, it is a Christian board. The arguments for supporting Donald Trump are sound.* If one assumes that it is their duty to only vote for one of the two parties,* it is probable that Trump will be seen as the better moral option between the two. Hillary Clinton is so bound and committed to the promotion of abortion. It is hard for a person of moral character to balance this.

Yes Trump is more divisive than Obama, but he does not believe in dividing the unborn into chunks for easy removal and disposal, at least this year he doesn’t. I have argued against being a one issue voter, yet Catholics must recognize just how huge the issue of abortion is.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Yep, its very difficult for non-American Catholics to fathom. A vile, vulgar, rude, obnoxious man who has openly supported intrinsically evil acts… definitely a case of party trumping faith. People like “package deals”. Abortion and gay marriage are true evils we are combating in the West…and somehow along the way many of us have adopted the whole “conservative” package even where it is at odds with the magisterium. I can’t imagine even a single US bishop supporting Trump…especially with their strong views on immigration matters. Of course no Catholic could support Hilary either…but you can’t support one evil to oppose another. Catholic moral teaching condemns the principle of “the end justifies the means”. If I were an American, my conscience would force me to sit out the presidential election and focus on candidates I could support at other levels - congressmen, senators, state governors / representatives…

Actually, Church teaching does allow Catholics to vote against a candidate who promotes an intrinsic evil like abortion, if the opposing candidate is significantly less so. And Trump is significantly less so. One might even say if Trump really follows through with the kinds of Supreme Court appointments he proposes, he will be the prolife champion of the century, bar none.

Americans are aware there are some foreign populations that are significantly more phlegmatic than are Americans. Harry Truman, for example, was more rough in speech than Trump, by far. He also offered to punch a reporter in the nose and called him an “S.O.B.” right out in public. Lyndon Johnson used to unnerve bureaucrats and diplomats by insisting they meet with him in the restroom while he was defecating right in their view. He enjoyed doing that. Even Truman was less obnoxious than Johnson at his most obnoxious.

So perhaps it should not surprise too much that Americans’ aesthetic pain level is somewhat lower than that of some other societies. But we also recognize that sometimes more urbane rulers are just chocolate covered spiders.

 

[Sy_Noe]

This is a Catholic board. More to the point, it is a Christian board. The arguments for supporting Donald Trump are sound.* If one assumes that it is their duty to only vote for one of the two parties,* it is probable that Trump will be seen as the better moral option between the two. Hillary Clinton is so bound and committed to the promotion of abortion. It is hard for a person of moral character to balance this.

Yes Trump is more divisive than Obama, but he does not believe in dividing the unborn into chunks for easy removal and disposal, at least this year he doesn’t. I have argued against being a one issue voter, yet Catholics must recognize just how huge the issue of abortion is.

I’m just going to assume since this is a Christian board as you say, that you know there are Christians and other Christian faith communities of moral character which don’t find it so hard to balance. They simply may not have the same faith in Catholic teaching authority on faith and morals.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I’m just going to assume since this is a Christian board as you say, that you know there are Christians and other Christian faith communities of moral character which don’t find it so hard to balance. They simply may not have the same faith in Catholic teaching authority on faith and morals.

Exactly correct.

There are very good protestant Christians in this world. I live in the Bible Belt and have many protestants, particularly Fundamentalists, among my close friends. Christian Fundamentalists are, to me, easier to talk to about religion than are mainline protestants, because the former really do believe in moral absolutes whereas the latter are more relativistic. Fundamentalists also hold to a degree of moral subjectivism, but they tend to hold to certain biblical precepts without equivocation or compromise. If it’s in the bible and clearly stated, that’s all there is to know.