Catholic.com presidential poll

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Yes they like Hillary are responsible for promoting intrinsic evil. A gun has nothing to do with anything. Neither of you have a point, try not to get too excited over your own confusion.
By your logic,if Hillary is responsible for the abortion sought by a woman, then the politicians that allow for military grade weapons to remain legal are responsible for the murders committed by those weapons. And, yes, murder is also an intrinsic evil.
 
Yes they like Hillary are responsible for promoting intrinsic evil. A gun has nothing to do with anything. Neither of you have a point, try not to get too excited over your own confusion.
I think the question is that if you support the constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court and the laws enacted as a result, are you complicit in promoting evil when someone uses those laws to commit murder, whether through abortion or as a result of gun ownership.
 
I think the question is that if you support the constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court and the laws enacted as a result, are you complicit in promoting evil when someone uses those laws to commit murder, whether through abortion or as a result of gun ownership.
Im not concerned with the question but formed conscience and Church teaching on intrinsic evil, guns have no absolute Church teaching in regards, and they propose no Constitutional issue as they can be used to protect human life. They can also be used for sport. There is no comparison of a gun and abortion.
 
Sally, Crossbones even agrees with me minus his Catholic teaching, but look here if I replace guns[not intrinsic evi] with abortion[intrinsic evil]…
And those politicians that enable people to get [abortion] to murder. Clearly, they are also personally responsible. -Crossbones.
 
This logic is similar to Crossbones too…
Originally Posted by Expatreprocedit View Post
“1 million dead” is only relevant IF electing Donald Trump has a reasonable probability of substantially altering that.
And those politicians that enable people to get [abortion] to murder. Clearly, they are also personally responsible. -Crossbones.
So responsibility is in stopping abortion and/or in promoting abortion, and by the candidates, and by the person supporting the candidates position by vote.

Trump does have the probability to stop abortion just by supreme court selection!! Hillary contends to further her agenda also.

So everyone is in some way in logical agreement here.
 
This logic is similar to Crossbones too…

So responsibility is in stopping abortion and/or in promoting abortion, and by the candidates, and by the person supporting the candidates position by vote.

Trump does have the probability to stop abortion just by supreme court selection!! Hillary contends to further her agenda also.

So everyone is in some way in logical agreement here.
Actually, I was pointing out the flaw in your argument. If you want to blame politicians for every abortion, then you must blame politicians for handgun murders. I don’t blame politicians directly for either, though I think abortion should be illegal and I think there can be more common sense legislation for guns that does not violate people’s rights. You seem to want to blame politicians for abortion but not handgun murders, and I was just pointing out the inherit contradiction in your argument.
 
Yes they like Hillary are responsible for promoting intrinsic evil. A gun has nothing to do with anything. Neither of you have a point, try not to get too excited over your own confusion.
There are other evils besides intrinsic evils, and people can be morally culpable for them too.

You have not said why mothers who decide to abort are not the real guilty parties. Why should you let them off the hook so easily, so that all this anger is reserved for Hillary, who has never, as far as I know, performed an abortion, gotten an abortion, or pressured anyone into getting an abortion. Those who do those things are the real culprits.
 
You have not said why mothers who decide to abort are not the real guilty parties
Well think about it from a formed conscience perspective? Are they guilty of mortal sin?
 
Trump does have the probability to stop abortion just by supreme court selection!!
5 of the 7 justices who were in the majority in the Supreme Court decision on Roe were nominated by Republican Presidents.

And Justice Souter was later nominated by a Republican President and confirmed with 90 votes. Yet he later upheld Roe.

And Justices Sandra Day O’Conner and Anthony Kennedy, both nominated by Republican Ronald Reagan, joined Souter.

Go figure. 🤷
 
Actually, I was pointing out the flaw in your argument. If you want to blame politicians for every abortion, then you must blame politicians for handgun murders. I don’t blame politicians directly for either, though I think abortion should be illegal and I think there can be more common sense legislation for guns that does not violate people’s rights. You seem to want to blame politicians for abortion but not handgun murders, and I was just pointing out the inherit contradiction in your argument.
There is no flaw, abortion as you know with USCCB formed conscience is first priority of human rights -life -the right to live-always evil . A gun isn’t an intrinsic evil.
 
Well think about it from a formed conscience perspective? Are they guilty of mortal sin?
If they knew what they were doing and were aware the thing they were killing was a living person, and still decided go ahead and do it, the conditions for a mortal sin are all fulfilled.
 
There is no flaw, abortion as you know with USCCB formed conscience is first priority of human rights -life -the right to live-always evil . A gun isn’t an intrinsic evil.
Nominating a Supreme Court Justice also isn’t an intrinsic evil, since that nomination could result in many things besides an abortion ruling. So if you are going to excuse gun dealers because their guns could be used for innocent activities, you would have to excuse Hillary for nominating a SC Justice who could be beneficial in some innocent activities too.
 
“1 million dead” is only relevant IF electing Donald Trump has a reasonable probability of substantially altering that. It does not, for reasons that have been adduced on this forum many times.
That’s not true, and you know it!

While abortion will remain legal, Planned Parenthood can be de-funded and we can stop funding it in foreign countries.
 
Actually, I was pointing out the flaw in your argument. If you want to blame politicians for every abortion, then you must blame politicians for handgun murders. I don’t blame politicians directly for either, though I think abortion should be illegal and I think there can be more common sense legislation for guns that does not violate people’s rights. You seem to want to blame politicians for abortion but not handgun murders, and I was just pointing out the inherit contradiction in your argument.
Your argument doesn’t pass the logic test. Handgun murders are already illegal. Politicians passed the law that made murders illegal so if an individual breaks that law, it’s on the individual, not the politician. Abortion is perfectly legal and as long as it’s legal, the politicians are to blame.
 
Your argument doesn’t pass the logic test. Handgun murders are already illegal. Politicians passed the law that made murders illegal so if an individual breaks that law, it’s on the individual, not the politician. Abortion is perfectly legal and as long as it’s legal, the politicians are to blame.
If you are talking only about US law, you would be right. But if you are talking about Catholic morality, the Catechism makes it clear that we are under moral obligation to follow God’s law, even when it is in conflict with civil law. If you go to confession and say "Father, I got an abortion", the priest will not say to you “Don’t worry. It’s not your fault. It’s the fault of those politicians who let you do it.”.
 
Trump does have the probability to stop abortion just by supreme court selection!!
Trump will “stop abortion just by supreme court selection”. Do I have to explain in depth why this is statement is fantastical, rather than factual?
 
There is no flaw, abortion as you know with USCCB formed conscience is first priority of human rights -life -the right to live-always evil . A gun isn’t an intrinsic evil.
No, a handgun isn’t illegal, you’re right. So, in your mind, a politician is responsible for all the intrinsic evils propagated if he does not work to make them illegal?
 
Otherwise you have empty talk. 🤷
Saying, as you did, that Trump could “stop abortion” by his “supreme court nomination” is the emptiest of talk, a vain delusion. As has been pointed out NUMEROUS times, even if Trump would appoint an anti-Roe justice, very speculative, and even if this justice would combine with 4 other justices and overturn Roe v. Wade (very unlikely considering it is very difficult to overturn a precedent of 43 years) and even if a number of states would then make abortions illegal, that would still not “stop abortion”. It would reduce abortions slightly, which would be a good thing, but most abortions would still happen, just illegally, because we don’t live in a culture that values life.
 
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