Catholic conservatism on the rise as priest refuses funeral for 'sinner'

[AlanFromWichita]

fix:

Indeed, because you are an absolutist.

Um, I’ve been having some second thought about this.

How certain are you that I am an absolutist? On what authority do you claim to know? Is that infallibly defined?

I’m not so sure I’m an absolutist now. Oh gosh I’m so mixed up.

I suppose saying I’m an absolutist is definitely one way of looking at it, but how do we know this view is the same as God’s?

Alan

 

[Brad]

AlanFromWichita:

Honestly, I have no first hand experience that any given Bible passage is objectively true.

I rely on faith in the Church and her teachings that the Bible is, in fact, true. So here I do accept somebody else’s authority because I Wasn’t There so I can’t really do the “Thomas thing” like I really wished I could do.

Alan

Then, by extension, you must also accept that the Church’s teaching on faith and morals are true, and, if someone violates this teaching, then they are doing something that is wrong, correct?

 

[Brad]

AlanFromWichita:

Every word is nonsensicle to God. God’s first language is silence. This is something that contemplatives hear more about than most others.

The deepest form of prayer involves no words at all. Men create words to exchange their ideas. To the degree two men have the same understanding of and feelings about those words, is whether they receive the same idea the person speaking was trying to communicate – both in literal and implied messages. Remember, if the listener infers, then the miscommunication takes place anyway just as if the speaker had implied, so it behooves the speaker to know the audience’s baggage and stay away from it unless he is an expert at their point of view.

Alan

I see. How about this. You post a blank box. Then I’ll post a blank box. Then you can post a blank box. That way we cannot possibly miscommunicate or be uncertain of anything.

 

[Brad]

AlanFromWichita:

If I were an absolutist, I would feel obligated to report this post to the moderators and try to get you disciplined, rather than take what you have said in good faith and get over the fact that you use language I might find offensive.

Heaven or Hell is a serious consideration. Staying on the board is a bit less serious. Not an adequate comparison.

 

[Brad]

felra:

I do not subscribe to all this judgment stuff that you presume when a fellow brother/sister in Christ is presented/confronted with the error of their ways out of concern for the welfare of their soul. This is only being compassionate. A few/many bad experiencesat the hands of fellow believers does not mean that we all have to walk around on eggs shells fearful of coming across as insensitive or judgmental. The measuring rod of wrongness/sinful actions is the Gospel as given to us by the bible, tradition and teaching authority of the Church. Judgment is reserved for God alone—I believe that this is a basic no brainer for any adult Catholic worthy of the name. To think or act otherwise is to delude one’s self. The Truth speaks for itself. Faithful and obedient Catholics are merely mouthpieces, witnesses for the truth of the Gospel, which is fully vested in the Catholic Church.

2472 The duty of Christians to take part in the life of the Church impels them to act as *witnesses of the Gospel *and of the obligations that flow from it. This witness is a transmission of the faith in words and deeds. Witness is an act of justice that establishes the truth or makes it known. (CCC)

Exactly. I’m trying to find where in the Bible God says to ponder all he has to say endlessly, talk about it without ceasing, question it’s veracity, but never recommend it’s application to life.

 

[Brad]

AlanFromWichita:

Egg shells. Your first amendment rights are being sooo violated because I don’t bow down to people who talk to me like that. If those are egg shells I’d love to see what they’ve got if they were serious about being condescending to me.

Now I’ll quit walking on egg shells. Grow up and get a life. Oh wait, am I just being mischievious or do I really mean that?

Judging?

 

[Brad]

fix:

Convoluted thinking: priceless

Oh. If only it were true.

 

[Brad]

buffalo:

The laws of nature can be supeceded by a miracle if you will. Until the supernatural comes into play the absolutist sees and knows there are only two apples.

And yet it is relativists that say absolutely that miracles cannot happen. Perhaps that is a miracle.

 

[Brad]

AlanFromWichita:

What isn’t OK is:

You are wrong. I am right and you are wrong because I agree with the pope and you don’t. If you think I am wrong, then your mind is too small. You are just being obstinate; I’ve explained this five times so any second grader could understand.

Alan

Sound to me like you are arguing method. Are you debating truth or method of it’s proclamation?

 

[Brad]

fix:

Maybe I really do not exist…

I say you do not. And don’t you dare get upset at me for saying this. Even if the Pope says that you exist. I insist you do not.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Brad:

Originally Posted by AlanFromWichita

			 *Honestly, I have no first hand experience that any given Bible passage is objectively true.

I rely on faith in the Church and her teachings that the Bible is, in fact, true. So here I do accept somebody else’s authority because I Wasn’t There so I can’t really do the “Thomas thing” like I really wished I could do.

Alan
*

Then, by extension, you must also accept that the Church’s teaching on faith and morals are true, and, if someone violates this teaching, then they are doing something that is wrong, correct?

Sort of. If the Bible is true, which unlike Thomas I have no objective proof in the worldly realm, then I must accept the Church’s teachings that the Bible is true.

Whether the Bible says that the Church has infallible teaching in faith and morals requires me to believe more assertions of the Church in addition to the one that the Bible is true.

Atheist or non-Christian: Bible isn’t true.
Protestant of non-denominational: Bible is true. Everything else must flow from there to my personal satisfaction.
Catholic: Bible is true, but Rome trumps me at understanding it.

Now to accept the last one fully, I must accept that despite the many wrongs that every human ever in the Church laity and clergy have done, that the particular part of her that involves Teachings on Faith And Morals has been kept pristine. We have committed moral atrocities, but we have sole intellect.

That means we could be like Christ, or that we could be like the pharisees. Mental assent is meaningless without love, so if we supply love than mental assent will be nurtured.

Sorry I might have drifted off topic. I was halfway listening to my wife’s phone conversation.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Brad:

I see. How about this. You post a blank box. Then I’ll post a blank box. Then you can post a blank box. That way we cannot possibly miscommunicate or be uncertain of anything.

Well, in a way that is correct. Perhaps you intended to be glib and that’s OK, because sometimes that’s where insights are formed.

When you do contemplative prayer, you completely quit communicating with the world as much as possible. It isn’t just relaxing, and it isn’t meditating in silence. it is interior silence of the mind.

In silence, we allow ourselves to be in the loving presence of our Lord with no worldly concerns at all, and this invites His Spirit to speak to us in a process called “contemplation” where the Holy Spirit speaks to us in His native language, which is entirely silent of human language. Christ spoke to us in human language so we’d understand Him. He speaks other languages, such as pure faith. When we quiet our minds we assent to His presence.

This is exemplefied by Benedict xvi recent talks about the importance of taking vacations. This is part of the whole idea of keeping at least the sabbath holy. When we are constantly busy and yakking away and listening to others yakking while thinking of ten other things we should be doing, it builds up spiritual junk.

Contemplation is dejunking by the Divine Therapist, the Holy Spirit.

That is very creepy to some people, and having been raised in constant noise their whole lives it helps to have spiritual direction in deciding on contemplative prayer forms. For example, centering prayer is praised by some and feared by others, but Lectio Divina also strives to achieve contemplation (which is a gift from God and not a “method”) and is hardly controversial.
CCC 2709 2716 2717 2721 2724:

What is contemplative prayer? St. Teresa answers: “Contemplative prayer oración mental] in my opinion is nothing else than a close sharing between friends; it means taking time frequently to be alone with him who we know loves us.” Contemplative prayer seeks him “whom my soul loves.” It is Jesus, and in him, the Father. We seek him, because to desire him is always the beginning of love, and we seek him in that pure faith which causes us to be born of him and to live in him. In this inner prayer we can still meditate, but our attention is fixed on the Lord himself.

Contemplative prayer is hearing the Word of God. Far from being passive, such attentiveness is the obedience of faith, the unconditional acceptance of a servant, and the loving commitment of a child. It participates in the “Yes” of the Son become servant and the Fiat of God’s lowly handmaid.

Contemplative prayer is silence, the “symbol of the world to come” or “silent love.” Words in this kind of prayer are not speeches; they are like kindling that feeds the fire of love. In this silence, unbearable to the “outer” man, the Father speaks to us his incarnate Word, who suffered, died, and rose; in this silence the Spirit of adoption enables us to share in the prayer of Jesus.

The Christian tradition comprises three major expressions of the life of prayer: vocal prayer, meditation, and contemplative prayer. They have in common the recollection of the heart.

Contemplative prayer is the simple expression of the mystery of prayer. It is a gaze of faith fixed on Jesus, an attentiveness to the Word of God, a silent love. It achieves real union with the prayer of Christ to the extent that it makes us share in his mystery.

This is very much like what happens every day in a monestary.

People with active lives boggle at the thought of people being together without verbal communications. I guess when it’s too quiet the nonverbal communications then become deafening?

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Brad:

Heaven or Hell is a serious consideration. Staying on the board is a bit less serious. Not an adequate comparison.

Are you trying to defend absolutists by saying that whether a certain spiritual principal applies depends on a subjective measure such as “how serious” we take a particular aspect of the truth?

When Jesus told parables, He talked of mustard seeds but intended to teach on the principles of the kingdom of heaven. He talked of weeds but meant the children of the devil.

I don’t get why you object to making such abstractions.

Alan

 

[buffalo]

Brad:

I say you do not. And don’t you dare get upset at me for saying this. Even if the Pope says that you exist. I insist you do not.

It is absolutely true that fix does not exist. But he says he does. My truth is my truth and yours is yours. It’s OK as long as both of us think it is true.

Now you both cannot be correct and still be true. He either exists or he does not. Which is it?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Brad:

Exactly. I’m trying to find where in the Bible God says to ponder all he has to say endlessly, talk about it without ceasing, question it’s veracity, but never recommend it’s application to life.

That’s a good thing to ponder.

While you’re pondering that, I’ll ponder where it says in the Bible that if you are Full Mental Assent, it becomes your Solemn Duty to judge others and determine whether they are worthy of honor even after their death.

In Topeka there is a couple who actually attend funerals and protest against them because they deemed the dead people to be sinners and want to make sure they send the correct message to the mourners about it. As I may have mentioned (I forget which thread I say what) hey have a disadvantage against the Church because the Church can completely cancel the funeral Mass for a dead person if she thinks it be a sinner.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Brad:

Judging?

Yes, judging. He objectively broke a specific forum rule.

In the world of moral absolutists, he should suffer the penalty.

In the world of loving relativists, we should let him be.

In the world of CAF, we should not discuss moderator actions.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Brad:

Sound to me like you are arguing method. Are you debating truth or method of it’s proclamation?

Both, kind of.

Its method of proclamation for sure, but I assert that in having a faulty method of proclamation its meaning and therefore truthfulness also suffers. Being rude and appearing self-righteous are not solitary sins. It has long term ill effects on the truth because it vaccinates the ignorant against future education.

Remember satan can quote scriptures too, and did so to tempt the Lord. Of course it’s easy to do Monday morning quarterback on that and say it’s obvious what was going on, but would we have known how to respond if we’d been with Jesus those 40 days?

Likewise when somebody in a preacher suit and credentials comes up to me and to my fallible perception behaves offensively toward me or my God, then I am going to be on alert and judge even the motives and not just the facts when the truth is quoted me.

What if I were in the desert for 40 days with Christ, nearly starving, hallucinating, and the devil said, “it’s OK, you can eat now.” Then don’t you think I might be tempted to think that it was really an angel and not the devil?

Yes, I think both. The truth can be presented in such a way that it becomes a lie.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Brad:

I say you do not. And don’t you dare get upset at me for saying this. Even if the Pope says that you exist. I insist you do not.

I appreciate you clearing that up. I thought fix really did exist, and that he was annoying.

Now that I know he doesn’t exist, I no longer have an opponent. Game over by default. Now I can log off for a while and maybe go sit in a dark room with my eyes closed and not think of anything.

Alan

 

[Ani_Ibi]

fix:

Maybe I really do not exist…

If you exist metaphorically, then you exist. Besides my existo-meter has lit up your name in green. This is always a good sign.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

buffalo:

The laws of nature can be supeceded by a miracle if you will. Until the supernatural comes into play the absolutist sees and knows there are only two apples.

In this space-time continuum. What happens if one or both of the apples or if the observer of the apples cross the event horizon of a black hole? Or what if the two apples are in fact two halves of a virtual apple-twin? What if Brad eats one of the apples? How many apples are there now?