Catholic conservatism on the rise as priest refuses funeral for 'sinner'

[fix]

AlanFromWichita:

I appreciate you clearing that up. I thought fix really did exist, and that he was annoying.

Now that I know he doesn’t exist, I no longer have an opponent. Game over by default. Now I can log off for a while and maybe go sit in a dark room with my eyes closed and not think of anything.

Alan

Ani Ibi Quote:
Originally Posted by fix
Maybe I really do not exist…

If you exist metaphorically, then you exist. Besides my existo-meter has lit up your name in green. This is always a good sign.

I only exist in your perceptions. Then again, this entire experience may be a dream of mine, or someone else’s dream. Is anyone really there?

 

[buffalo]

fix:

I only exist in your perceptions. Then agian, this entire experience may be a dream of mine, or someone else’s dream. Is anyone really there?

Fix is a CAF computer program.

 

[buffalo]

Ani Ibi:

In this space-time continuum. What happens if one or both of the apples or if the observer of the apples cross the event horizon of a black hole? Or what if the two apples are in fact two halves of a virtual apple-twin? What if Brad eats one of the apples? How many apples are there now?

If we cross over into a black hole it will be a miracle that we could see any apples at all.

If its virtual it is not real.

It depends if he eats the one with the worm.

If he eats one apple I would show my index finger to show that we all agree there is my index finger number of apples on the table.

 

[felra]

AlanFromWichita:

Sort of. If the Bible is true, which unlike Thomas I have no objective proof in the worldly realm, then I must accept the Church’s teachings that the Bible is true.

Whether the Bible says that the Church has infallible teaching in faith and morals requires me to believe more assertions of the Church in addition to the one that the Bible is true.

Atheist or non-Christian: Bible isn’t true.
Protestant of non-denominational: Bible is true. Everything else must flow from there to my personal satisfaction.
Catholic: Bible is true, but Rome trumps me at understanding it.

Now to accept the last one fully, I must accept that despite the many wrongs that every human ever in the Church laity and clergy have done, that the particular part of her that involves Teachings on Faith And Morals has been kept pristine. We have committed moral atrocities, but we have sole intellect.

That means we could be like Christ, or that we could be like the pharisees. Mental assent is meaningless without love, so if we supply love than mental assent will be nurtured.

Sorry I might have drifted off topic. I was halfway listening to my wife’s phone conversation.

Alan

To be Catholic means to know that Christ founded and left behind a Church upon his ascention into heaven. That the bible flowed from the early Church community, not visa versa. That Christ gave specifically to Peter the keys to the kingdom to have rule and authority in heaven over the Chuch that He founded. That Christ continues to be the Head of the Church as He sits at the right hand of His Father in heaven. You need to add more of your “mystical” ascent to the human dimension of the Church that you cite as reason to question the authority of the Church to speak in matters of faith or morals.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Brad:

Sound to me like you are arguing method. Are you debating truth or method of it’s proclamation?

Oh, Gadamer. This is promising. I think I asked quite some time ago if an attempt was being made to consume modernism into post-modernism. Well?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Ani Ibi:

In this space-time continuum. What happens if one or both of the apples or if the observer of the apples cross the event horizon of a black hole? Or what if the two apples are in fact two halves of a virtual apple-twin? What if Brad eats one of the apples? How many apples are there now?

Oh, you talk purty!

 

[AlanFromWichita]

buffalo:

If we cross over into a black hole it will be a miracle that we could see any apples at all.

Alleluia!

If he eats one apple I would show my index finger to show that we all agree there is my index finger number of apples on the table.

Just remember a minute ago you also had the next finger showing. Make sure to put the other one away first.

Alan

 

[felra]

fix:

I only exist in your perceptions. Then again, this entire experience may be a dream of mine, or someone else’s dream. Is anyone really there?

I remember a Pink Floyd song whose lyrics mimic this very same existential pondering… “Hello, hello,hello, …is there anybody out there?..”

 

[Ani_Ibi]

buffalo:

It is absolutely true that fix does not exist. But he says he does. My truth is my truth and yours is yours.

Ah! A succinct thinker! At last! This then would be an example of relativism. Good man.

buffalo:

It’s OK as long as both of us think it is true.

This is another animal altogether from relativism. This sounds like Political Correctness. For example, I can create truth by organizing a committee and passing a resolution declaring something to be true. But then if one committee declares fix’s existence and another committee declares his non-existence, for both committees to be declaring truth, truth would have to be relative.

buffalo:

Now you both cannot be correct and still be true. He either exists or he does not. Which is it?

It’s both. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. Bwa-ha-ha!

 

[fix]

felra:

I remember a Pink Floyd song whose lyrics mimic this very same existential pondering… “Hello, hello,hello, …is there anybody out there?..”

Comfortably Numb, which is how one may feel after reading all these posts, or perhaps uncomfortably numb…

 

[AlanFromWichita]

felra:

To be Catholic means to know that Christ founded and left behind a Church upon his ascention into heaven. That the bible flowed from the early Church community, not visa versa. That Christ gave specifically to Peter the keys to the kingdom to have rule and authority in heaven over the Chuch that He founded. That Christ continues to be the Head of the Church as He sits at the right hand of His Father in heaven.

I must not have been Catholic when I was pabtized because I didn’t know all that stuff. In fact, I didn’t know all of it until you just laid it out there.

]
You need to add more of your “mystical” ascent to the human dimension of the Church that you cite as reason to question the authority of the Church to speak in matters of faith or morals.

Thank you for respecting my claim to practice “mystical” stuff in conjunction with intellectuall stuff.

I’m not exactly sure what you mean, but there is at least one context in which I have defended that right for the Church.

By human standards, issues of faith and morals involve the heart which cannot be infallibly read from one mortal human to another, Pio excepted perhaps.

Therefore no human being can claim to equal Christ in this department.

If we are to have a basis for discussion, it is convenient to adopt one set of rules as the basis from which we will compare others. Why not let Rome carry that standard? Let them say what is objective “right” and “wrong” for this verbal discussion.

Each of us can say we don’t understand it or we do, that we agree with it or that we do not, or that we intend to obey it or we don’t, or that it is tempting for us or not. What we cannot do is claim the Catholic Church is objectively false in these areas, which are not subject to logical or physical experimentation.

Also we can pine for the Church to change something, but we cannot speak against her to outsiders for not doing so, nor can we reasonably expect her to change to suit us. On matters she considers fundamental, we are fools to ask her to change them – although we can silent feel oppressed if we really want to have a pity party.

Alan

 

[Ani_Ibi]

buffalo:

If we cross over into a black hole it will be a miracle that we could see any apples at all.

How can you know?

buffalo:

If its virtual it is not real.

But if it is a virtual twin it is.

buffalo:

It depends if he eats the one with the worm.

If he eats the one with the worm, how many apples are there?

buffalo:

If he eats one apple I would show my index finger to show that we all agree there is my index finger number of apples on the table.

You are assuming that all the observers in this thought experiment can see your finger. What if you hold up one finger and one of the observers sees ten fingers? What then?

 

[buffalo]

AlanFromWichita:

Alleluia!

Just remember a minute ago you also had the next finger showing. Make sure to put the other one away first.

Alan

Yes, otherwise my friends would truly think I was a relativist with this confusion of the truth.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

fix:

Comfortably Numb, which is how one may feel after reading all these posts, or perhaps uncomfortably numb…

This is getting deep.

I think I’ll go look for my old Zappa recording of “I’m the Slime.”

Alan

 

[buffalo]

Ani Ibi:

How can you know?

But if it is a virtual twin it is.

If he eats the one with the worm, how many apples are there?

You are assuming that all the observers in this thought experiment can see your finger. What if you hold up one finger and one of the observers sees ten fingers? What then?

No such thing as a virtual twin. If it is virtual it only exists in the mind.

I would refer him to an optometrist.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Ani Ibi:

If he eats the one with the worm, how many apples are there?

I dunno but I just saw a guy with a t-shirt “I ATE THE WORM!”

You are assuming that all the observers in this thought experiment can see your finger. What if you hold up one finger and one of the observers sees ten fingers? What then?

Then where can I get whatever that observer is on? I need some for my accountant.

Alan

 

[Ani_Ibi]

buffalo:

No such thing as a virtual twin. If it is virtual it only exists in the mind.

Is there another kind of existence? If something exists outside the mind, how can you know it exists? If, perchance, you cannot know it exists, what good is it?

buffalo:

I would refer him to an optometrist.

What if the optometrist sees seven apples? The optometrist presumably is an expert observer. Or is she? What test of competence do we bring to the act of observing apples?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Ani Ibi:

What if the optometrist sees seven apples? The optometrist presumably is an expert observer. Or is she? What test of competence do we bring to the act of observing apples?

What are the ties between the optometrist and the Bush administration? Terrorism? WMD’s?

 

[buffalo]

Ani Ibi:

Is there another kind of existence? If something exists outside the mind, how can you know it exists? If, perchance, you cannot know it exists, what good is it?

What if the optometrist sees seven apples? The optometrist presumably is an expert observer. Or is she? What test of competence do we bring to the act of observing apples?

The five senses tell us what we can know as humans. There is a supernatural existence.

How do we know it exists - Revelation.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

buffalo:

The five senses tell us what we can know as humans. There is a supernatural existence.

How do we know it exists - Revelation.

There you go getting serious on us again.

Hey, we haven’t had any good fighting in minutes now. How about some of us cruise over to that old cafeteria Catholics Guild and see if we can stir something up?

Alan

P.S. Sorry I forgot the directions. It’s at Penny’s place, right here.