Catholic Considering Islam

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. No one has provided any evidence that the Arabs at Mecca worshiped the moon god as the supreme deity.

Edwin
Evidence would be pretty hard to find.After Mohammed woke up one day and claimed God to have revealed himself to him and after he managed to convert the arabs to his new found religion, his tribes went on a massacre, all relics and idols were destroyed.Over a period of the next few centuries all traces of pagan religion were wiped out.

The arabs had extensive trade relations with India, ancient manuscripts written in Sanskrit reveal that the pre-islamic gods they worships were very similar to the hindu gods like the sun and the moon and the stars.
you might not get any info in the arab world, but you might wanna search for some text on ancient trade relations India had with the world and you’ll find evidence.
God bless,
Franklin
 
When some one will preach, he has to preach in the name of the One God (say Father). Then any one may ask who told you all those good words? You can say “It was taught by Jesus”. If any asked “How did Jesus get all that??” It would be necessary to mention the Holy Spirit.
If you mean by “Holy Spirit” here the Angel Gabriel, then no, you are not correct. Perhaps if I ask you a question you will understand this:

Where did Allah get the message that he gave to the Angel Gabriel to give to Muhammad?

In using this comparison I would contend that Jesus “got” His message from the same place Allah did.

(Although I do feel duty-bound to point out that this is just a comparison for clarity to planten and that the message allegedly sent by God to Muhammad is NOT the same as the message given to us by Jesus. Therefore Muhammad’s message is NOT from God. Muhammad contradicts previous scriptures.)
 
Evidence would be pretty hard to find.After Mohammed woke up one day and claimed God to have revealed himself to him and after he managed to convert the arabs to his new found religion, his tribes went on a massacre, all relics and idols were destroyed.Over a period of the next few centuries all traces of pagan religion were wiped out.

The arabs had extensive trade relations with India, ancient manuscripts written in Sanskrit reveal that the pre-islamic gods they worships were very similar to the hindu gods like the sun and the moon and the stars.
you might not get any info in the arab world, but you might wanna search for some text on ancient trade relations India had with the world and you’ll find evidence.
God bless,
Franklin
What you have written may be true. We see that the Hindu venerate the Cow. So did the Jews. They loved a special type of Cow, almost worshipped it. How this love of Cow got into the Jews is also to be investigated. The matter of Cow Love of the Jews is much described in chapter two of the Quran. The chapter is named “Cow” i.e. Baqarah.
 
If you mean by “Holy Spirit” here the Angel Gabriel, then no, you are not correct. Perhaps if I ask you a question you will understand this:

Where did Allah get the message that he gave to the Angel Gabriel to give to Muhammad?

In using this comparison I would contend that Jesus “got” His message from the same place Allah did.

(Although I do feel duty-bound to point out that this is just a comparison for clarity to planten and that the message allegedly sent by God to Muhammad is NOT the same as the message given to us by Jesus. Therefore Muhammad’s message is NOT from God. Muhammad contradicts previous scriptures.)
**Jay, To me your argument is invalid, unjustified. “Where did Allah get the message…?” It would be like saying “Where did Father God get the message…??”

The Holy Spirit is also a messenger, an angel, who gets message from Your Holy Father ( i.e. Our Allah) and passes it on to the prophets.

**
 
If you go back to the beginning of the thread, you will see that whether Islam is attractive is in fact the issue at hand. We got off on this long tangent when people responded to IrishDude45’s request for help by telling him how evil he is and Islam is. Regarding your issue at hand (the islamofascists’ use of the Koran, ahadith, and sunna), I would ask them why the first thirteen of the fourteen centuries of Islam never came to the conclusions they did, and then I would hope that my government would protect me from them.

What would I do about the fact that apostasy from Islam is punished by death? Try to convert as many Muslims as possible to Christianity so that nobody will be left to enforce that law. Encourage secularized states like Turkey. And, most importantly, encourage Sufism. Al-Hallaj offered up his life on behalf of the Christians who were being persecuted - this is what he meant by when he wrote “I go to die in the confession of the Cross” (quoted somewhere in the first half of volume 1 of Fr. Massignon’s study). If Muslims become saints - whether through the means God provided in the Church or through the back door of Sufism, so to speak - we will not have islamofascists.

So my “very concise” answer is: Convert them.
Wow. That IS very concise. And profoundly…plausible. Personally, I have a powerful committment to the conversion of the men and women of Islam…which I have heard said by a friend in Seminary, that Islam as a theology “Is just misguided”…a misguided offshoot of Christianity. Having been inside Istanbul for some time, and having studied through the course of my education also, I personally got to a point where I could not refute many of the ‘rational arguments’ of Islam. Referencing what was posted above, of Sufism, in particular. It thought it most interesting that in the Qur’an’s early chapters that God / “Allah” is so holy and incomprehensibly complex to mankind (like…YHWH??) that even descriptors like “HE” “SHE” could not be used. God is “WE.” And, speaks like this.
There is some debate about if this “We” is God and Angels…but, I wonder about ~The Trinity.

Regardless, this questioning, this seeking…it got me into real trouble (spiritually) because for myself, I believe that what I am called to do is speak the truth, learn the truth, emulate the truth and aid any who ask for my aid. If my experience can be helpful in any way, I am glad to share it.
Finally, whomever said the thing about the perverse spirit maurading as Gabriel…I AGREE. I cannot here say how I know this, other than you know about my time inside of a Muslim country…but I am sorry, I do not believe that the Qu’ran was given by Gabriel.

DuinasElegias
Second Elegy
 
I am late to this discussion and apologise if I am covering ground old ground here (knowing that such ground has been covered many times over the centuries!). Just a few of my principal objections to Islam:
  • it contradicts the word of God as given to us in the old and New Testaments. It denies the historical Jesus as well as his divinity. I simply can’t reconcile this with the Resurrection, the willingness of the early Christians to be martyred for their faith (in a peaceful way!!), the rise of Christianity, the continued strength of the church that Jesus founded despite all the persecution to which is has been subjected over the ages.
  • many Muslims are tremendously devout in ways that often put us Christians to shame, but Islam itself is far from being a peaceful religion. It demands that apostates (e.g. converts from Islam to Christianity) be killed. Stories abound everywhere about “honor” killings of those who felt the call of Jesus. I need say little about the lower status of women in Islam. In Islam, there can be no peace on earth until everyone is a muslim. There is simply no “golden rule” for non-muslims.
  • Among Allah’s 99 “beautiful names” is **makr. Allah is the best makr there is. He is known literally as the great Deceiver. Although they will never match the deceptions of Allah, Muslims are nontheless encouraged to use Taqiyya and Kitman to use lies if it will further the cause of Islam
  • ye shall know them by their fruits. Need I say any more about who is responsible for most terrorism today?
  • many other reasons: no miracles by Muhammed, he liked very young children too much…
When I read Jesus’s sayings in the Bible, He appeals to the very highest values in me, love. Love of one’s neighbour, forgiveness of enemies…where is this in Islam?

Finally, the Quran is supposed to be the direct word of God; there is nothing human about it. In contrast, Saint John’s revelation records Saint John’s own interpretation of what was revealed to him using his own words. In this we see the comparison between free will (God) and possession (Allah). It is my contention that a similar possession caused the writings of people like Neale Donald Walsche (conversations with God), Helen Blavatsky, Alice Bailey etc. Muhammed wrote what he was caused to write but it certainly did not come from the same Angel Gabriel of the Annunciation. I can therefore be impressed by the devotion of Muslims and try my best to love and pray for Muslims, but I want no part of Islam.
 
  • Among Allah’s 99 “beautiful names” is makr. Allah is the best makr there is. He is known literally as the great Deceiver. Although they will never match the deceptions of Allah, Muslims are nontheless encouraged to use Taqiyya and Kitman to use lies if it will further the cause of Islam
No, *makr *is not among the 99 names …
 
**Jay, To me your argument is invalid, unjustified. “Where did Allah get the message…?” It would be like saying “Where did Father God get the message…??”

The Holy Spirit is also a messenger, an angel, who gets message from Your Holy Father ( i.e. Our Allah) and passes it on to the prophets.

**
NO NO NO!! You’re almost there planten - you’ve almost grasped it!!! Jesus is God - He and the Father are One - therefore, asking “where did Jesus get the message?” is exactly like asking “where did Allah get the message?” You seem to be soooo close to understanding this!!

The Holy Spirit is NOT and NEVER HAS BEEN an angel. This is only in Muslim theology and Muhammad got it wrong. This has never been a part of Christian theology.

If you think about this, you might actually get it!!! 👍
 
No, *makr *is not among the 99 names …
I’m happy to set the record straight; makr is perhaps not Allah’s actual name, rather a description of his attributes and character. Same difference:

“But they (the Jews) were deceptive, and Allah was deceptive, for Allah is the best of deceivers (Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu waAllahu khayru al-makireena)! S. 3:54; cf. 8:30”
 
I’m happy to set the record straight; makr is perhaps not Allah’s actual name, rather a description of his attributes and character. Same difference:

“But they (the Jews) were deceptive, and Allah was deceptive, for Allah is the best of deceivers (Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu waAllahu khayru al-makireena)! S. 3:54; cf. 8:30”
perhaps you should read Tafseers of this ayah.
 
  • Among Allah’s 99 “beautiful names” is makr. Allah is the best makr there is. He is known literally as the great Deceiver. Although they will never match the deceptions of Allah, Muslims are nontheless encouraged to use Taqiyya and Kitman to use lies if it will further the cause of Islam
First of all, the list of which names go into the 99 “beautiful names” is not entirely agreed on; I usually use al-Ghazali’s list; I don’t recall al-makr there but it’s been a while.

Secondly, I think the term “deceiver” needs to be clarified. First of all, God “deceives” us in the same sense as the Hindu term maya, which literally means magic, like a conjuror’s show that we would take children too. Allah is called this because of the playful and creative nature of the universe He created; I think orthodox Christians would agree with this too (especially Christians like Chesterton). Creation is viewed as a mask (when viewed in a negative sense) and a veil (when viewed in a revelatory sense) over the Face of God; and “verily everything is perishing except His Face”.

A second sense in which God is a “deceiver” refers to the the hidden nature of revealed truths, which are never despoiled by being scattered among unbelievers. It is for this reason that Christ taught in parables, and that Christianity had (and, I would argue, still has) a disciplinum arcanum - as Our Lord said, you should not cast pearls before swine. Many of these doctrines in Christianity were simply never discussed around the profane (such as the Eucharist, which came to be referred to simply as the Mysteries), though they were certainly known to the pagans and heretics (well enough that the Koran itself forcefully teaches the divine nature of the Eucharist in surah “The Banquet” [3], in one of the last five verses of that surah). Other Catholic doctrines simply cannot be understood except by those who are already illumined by sanctifying grace - especially teachings concerning the sacraments, soteriology and mystical theology. Just look at how these teachings are misunderstood by secularists, Protestants, and others outside the Church and you will see why I consider these doctrines to be esoteric by their nature.

Islam also has its esoterism - al-Tawwasuf - which is a mystical theology that cannot really be understood in the legalistic terms in which Islam is exoterically formulated, but rather only by those who are themselves sufis (including all Christians, since we possess sanctifying grace through the sacraments, rather than through the extraordinary means of mystical experience). So it is correct to speak of Allah (even of the Islamic understanding of Allah) as al-makr.
 
What you have written may be true. We see that the Hindu venerate the Cow. So did the Jews. They loved a special type of Cow, almost worshipped it. How this love of Cow got into the Jews is also to be investigated. The matter of Cow Love of the Jews is much described in chapter two of the Quran. The chapter is named “Cow” i.e. Baqarah.
Planten, can you refresh our memories as to this? I seem to have left my copy of Qur’an at home when I left for college, so I can’t review surah 2 again. Is this referring to the incident of the Golden Calf at the foot of Mount Sinai? If not, then I would be extremely skeptical of it (and also quite curious as to where Muhammed got the story from), since the Old Testament is one of the most blatantly self-critical documents ever written, but doesn’t include any other episode of cattle worship.
 
Cecilianus,

I am sure you know about surah 5 , Al-maidah or “the table” where the disciples of Jesus asked him for a table with food from heaven. Is this story found in gnostic gospels or even in Christian traditions ?

Behold! the disciples, said: “O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?” Said Jesus: “Fear Allah, if ye have faith.”

They said: “We only wish to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts, and to know that thou hast indeed told us the truth; and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle.”

Said Jesus the son of Mary: “O Allah our Lord! Send us from heaven a table set (with viands), that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a solemn festival and a sign from thee; and provide for our sustenance, for thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs).”

Allah said: “I will send it down unto you: But if any of you after that resisteth faith, I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on any one among all the peoples.”
 
Planten, can you refresh our memories as to this? I seem to have left my copy of Qur’an at home when I left for college, so I can’t review surah 2 again. Is this referring to the incident of the Golden Calf at the foot of Mount Sinai? If not, then I would be extremely skeptical of it (and also quite curious as to where Muhammed got the story from), since the Old Testament is one of the most blatantly self-critical documents ever written, but doesn’t include any other episode of cattle worship.
One Israelite was found killed. All the Israelites gathered around Moses asking him to find out who killed the man. Moses asked Allah. Allah commanded the Israelites to slaughter a cow, any cow. The Israelites yelled at Moses: are you fooling! Moses said this is Allah’s command. Then they ask about the cow age, color, marital status and they made it difficult to find out such a cow. Finally they did. Allah commanded Moses to lightly knock the killed man with a part of the slaughtered cow. The killed man woke up and told them who killed him.

articlesbase.com/science-articles/the-cow-in-bible-and-quran-128385.html
 
I don’t think that story is in Christian tradition, and oddly enough, the apostles, the people that actually saw Jesus and recorded His deeds and were His disciples, never wrote that He even mentioned the word “allah”. Oddly enough, they recognised Him as God, including the one He made the leader of His church.

Then hundreds of years later, a new book written by someone who hasn’t seen him declares that they were all wrong and He wasn’t crucified and didn’t rise from the dead 9even though the apostles, who actually saw it, were willing to die for this belief,) which makes you wonder why there are all those ancient paintings of Him being crucified and rising from the dead. There are also accounts of what He does while on the cross. In light of this Islam seems very suspect.

The cow story is also suspect. For all the sins and errors listed in the Old Testament, they surely would have listed it if the Israelites had been worshipping cows or oxes.
 
I don’t think that story is in Christian tradition, and oddly enough, the apostles, the people that actually saw Jesus and recorded His deeds and were His disciples, never wrote that He even mentioned the word “allah”. Oddly enough, they recognised Him as God, including the one He made the leader of His church.
The Quran was revealed in Arabic,thus used “Allah”
The cow story is also suspect. For all the sins and errors listed in the Old Testament, they surely would have listed it if the Israelites had been worshipping cows or oxes.
where is “he shall be called a nazarene” ?

also, I read recently a Jewish account on Jesus and it mentioned him making clay brids and then bring them to life…yet we don’t see it the Bible.
 
I’m happy to set the record straight; makr is perhaps not Allah’s actual name, rather a description of his attributes and character. Same difference:

“But they (the Jews) were deceptive, and Allah was deceptive, for Allah is the best of deceivers (Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu waAllahu khayru al-makireena)! S. 3:54; cf. 8:30”
"But they (the Jews) planned (against Jesus), and Allah also planned, and Allah is the best of all planners. (Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu waAllahu khayru al-makireena)! S. 3:54; cf. 8:30"

The word Makr may not be translated as something mischievious. It is used for some secret plans. Or you could use the word “plot” for it. The enemies of Jesus plotted against him (to kill Jesus on the cross to prove that he was a cursed person, as such could never be a prophet of God.)

Allah also plotted against the plots of the Jews and thwarted their plots of killing Jesus on the Cross. Jesus was put up on the cross for some time and suffered the pain. But did not die on the cross.

The worse you can do is to use the word plot. But it would be better to use the plan for Makr. Allah miraculously save Jesus from death on the Cross. Jesus also had prayed in the garden before arrest to avoid the cup. Allah accepted his prayer. That is mnetione din the next verse of the Quran, i.e. 3:55. Allah told every thing to Jesus that he would die a natural death and will not die on the cross. See the plan of Allah in verse 3:55 please.
 
Cecilianus,

I am sure you know about surah 5 , Al-maidah or “the table” where the disciples of Jesus asked him for a table with food from heaven. Is this story found in gnostic gospels or even in Christian traditions ?

Behold! the disciples, said: “O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?” Said Jesus: “Fear Allah, if ye have faith.”

They said: “We only wish to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts, and to know that thou hast indeed told us the truth; and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle.”

Said Jesus the son of Mary: “O Allah our Lord! Send us from heaven a table set (with viands), that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a solemn festival and a sign from thee; and provide for our sustenance, for thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs).”

Allah said: “I will send it down unto you: But if any of you after that resisteth faith, I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on any one among all the peoples.”
It has parallels with John 6:34, where the disciples (after hearing Christ’s discourse on the “bread from heaven” implore Him to give them that banquet - “Lord, give us always this bread”). But the verse in John seems to be just a short exchange. There may be other passages in Scripture where the disciples beg Christ for the true manna (the table from heaven), and it certainly seems like something they would have done. It may have been passed down as an oral tradition (where Muhammed heard it); it’s not a dialogue that is explicitly remembered within Christianity. The Eucharist itself - the fulfillment of the promise - sort of overshadows the disciples’ begging for it beforehand.

It doesn’t seem to me like something you’d find in the Gnostic gospels, given their antipathy to matter and their dichotomy between matter and spirit. I haven’t read them all, however, so I’m mostly ignorant in this case. If it were, it probably isn’t true, since the Gnostic accounts were written a couple hundred years after the Gospels and tried to spin Jesus into a spokesman for their weird cosmology, which is no more compatible with Islam than with Christianity - basic idea that matter is evil, that the world was created by a sort of cosmic accident (usually the fall of Sophia, the divine feminine principle of wisdom) and that we need to renounce our fleshly existence and gain the secret knowledge necessary for returning to a state of pure spirituality. Sort of like most modern “spirituality” of the New Age sort.

The scene of Jesus making birds out of clay is from Gnostic accounts (The “Gospel of Thomas” and several others, I believe). Other stories are a little more interesting: Gospel of Thomas recounts Jesus giving His mother a sex-change operation because only men can enter Heaven. That pretty much gives you an idea of their credibility.:rolleyes:
 
Holy cow! Physician, heal thyself - who are you to say that IrishDude is “not a Catholic anyway”? Have you never experienced temptation - or do you somehow think that the temptations you undergo are somehow purer or better than his? What do you think that spiritual direction and the sacrament of Penance are for? Is it apostasy to ask, in charity, for spiritual help on a place like this?

When people are spiritually sick - and we are all spiritually sick, from both temptation and sin - don’t grow angry with them when they look for help. I don’t care if you’re working miracles - if you hath not charity, it availeth nothing. This kind of example does not save sinners. I would not blame IrishDude if this disgusting spectacle was the final straw that pushed him out of the Church and into the mosque. May God be more merciful to him than you are.

By the way, read his post which you quoted. You will find a reference to Jesus.
Dear Cecilianus,

Let the Irish dude defend himself. You talk about me and then you do the same thing. Maybe you need to read his post again. I did not bash him. I strongly stated that he mentioned nothing of Jesus. He said God, God, God. Well, that represents to me Allah, Alah, Allah. He said Muslims he knew were much holier than the Catholics he knew.

I went to Catholic Schools as a child and loved the nuns. They were very tough on all matters of faith. They would respond just as I did. Speak the truth.

Again, I believe the Irish Dude should respond. I found his remarks extremely naive and thoughtless about the faith that we both believe in.

Respectfully,

jpaul1953
 
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