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timotheos
Guest
Yeah, I understand Pullman is an atheist. But what Pullman seems to be doing is not just presenting atheism in the context of a trilogy of fantasy books, he seems to be presenting a sort of anti-theism, an attack on the Church. What will its effect be, to lead young people into lives of paganism? I don’t know, sometimes I think the Church, under times of poor leadership, has done a pretty good job of sending people in this direction without any extra help from books and movies of this sort.
With strong Catholic education and our setting of a non-hypocritical Catholic example to our kids, we shouldn’t have any serious problem with this stuff. Without it, though, well, we’ll see.
Tim
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Teen_Catholic
Guest
Now although I somewhat agree with this statement, in this case, we’re really not. Read the reviews on Amazon.com. Even atheists are turned of by his rabid attacked on the church.(I know of Pullman only that he is an atheist.) Catholics do seem to over-react, IMO. FWIW.
Now if Teens 4 Christ is still with us…
Your right, it is just a book. Except books influence people, and kids are easily influenced. When you place 2 and 2 together, you don’t have to be Turing to understand just what the result is going to be.
Really, from all appearances this is little more than a mouth piece for atheism. So is it any wonder we would boycott it.
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hasikelee
Guest
Whenever I stumble into a Harry Potter debate, online or IRL, “His Dark Trilogies” always comes to mind.
While everyone is moaning over HP, this guy hits his target hard. The theories woven throughout his trilogy are craftfully subtle and thoroughly relativistic. Anyone who has not learned about specific ideas ahead of time to be thinking about them while reading, or anyone who has not formed a strong moral compass could subconsciously be affected by these books.
While everyone is moaning over HP, this guy hits his target hard. The theories woven throughout his trilogy are craftfully subtle and thoroughly relativistic. Anyone who has not learned about specific ideas ahead of time to be thinking about them while reading, or anyone who has not formed a strong moral compass could subconsciously be affected by these books.
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Ahimsa
Guest
I dare say, TV commercial’s power to reach the subconscious is far more insidious.
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AlegreFe
Guest
I have started an email to all my Catholic and non-Catholic Christian friends about this movie. I hope they all have forwarded the email.
We all have to pray for this to flop also.
We all have to pray for this to flop also.
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AlegreFe
Guest
:banghead: I can’t believe this.
Just because you say you are strong in your faith and would not be moved by these books in a negative way does not mean that everyone else is the same. Many people have left the church over what they have read whether it be real or fiction. They were obviously not as strong in their faith as you. You are not the norm in America.
I am FOR BOYCOTTING these books!!!
A
AlegreFe
Guest
You are obviously oblivious to the impact this movie and these books can have on our children. Since you are just a teenager you would not understand. Your frontal lobe of your brain is not fully developed yet so you are not thinking straight. Not only that, you are not a parent concerned about his/her children.
Don’t tell me… you have read these books and enjoyed them right? If not, you want to read them, right? You must not be Catholic either. I don’t think you are if you are not concerned. But there are also many non-Catholic Christians that want to boycott these books and the movie. You have a lot of growing up to do, sorry, but you do.
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thereseozi
Guest
Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights:
catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1353
PHILIP PULLMAN’S DECEIT IS APPALLING
November 2, 2007
On this morning’s “Today” show, English atheist Philip Pullman was questioned by Al Roker about his trilogy, His Dark Materials, and the movie which opens December 7 that is based on his first book, The Golden Compass. Roker mentioned that the Catholic League is charging that Pullman’s work is selling “atheism for kids.” Here is Pullman’s response:
“Well, you know I always mistrust people who tell us how we should understand something. They know better than we do what the book means or what this means and how we should read it and whether we should read it or not. I don’t think that’s democratic. I prefer to trust the reader. I prefer to trust what I call the democracy of reading. When everybody has the right to form their own opinion and read what they like and come to their own conclusion about it. So I trust the reader.”
Catholic League president Bill Donohue replied as follows:
“The last thing Pullman trusts is the people. That is why he tries to sneak his atheism in back-door to kids. If he had any courage, he’d defend his work, but instead he continues to do what he does best—practice deceit. This is the same man who boldly exclaimed a few years ago, ‘I’m trying to undermine the basis of Christian belief.’ Now he says that it is undemocratic of us to issue a consumer’s alert (we’ve published a booklet on his work) that exposes his hatred of all things Catholic.
“We at the Catholic League never had to run from our work. How pitiful it is to see a grown man slip kids his poisonous pill and then pretend he trusts the reader. We are so happy to have ripped the mask off his face. And the movie doesn’t even open for another five weeks! This is going to be a good ride. Hope Pullman is up to it.”
Copyright © 1997-2007 by Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights.
*Material from this website may be reprinted and disseminated with accompanying attribution.
catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1353
PHILIP PULLMAN’S DECEIT IS APPALLING
November 2, 2007
On this morning’s “Today” show, English atheist Philip Pullman was questioned by Al Roker about his trilogy, His Dark Materials, and the movie which opens December 7 that is based on his first book, The Golden Compass. Roker mentioned that the Catholic League is charging that Pullman’s work is selling “atheism for kids.” Here is Pullman’s response:
“Well, you know I always mistrust people who tell us how we should understand something. They know better than we do what the book means or what this means and how we should read it and whether we should read it or not. I don’t think that’s democratic. I prefer to trust the reader. I prefer to trust what I call the democracy of reading. When everybody has the right to form their own opinion and read what they like and come to their own conclusion about it. So I trust the reader.”
Catholic League president Bill Donohue replied as follows:
“The last thing Pullman trusts is the people. That is why he tries to sneak his atheism in back-door to kids. If he had any courage, he’d defend his work, but instead he continues to do what he does best—practice deceit. This is the same man who boldly exclaimed a few years ago, ‘I’m trying to undermine the basis of Christian belief.’ Now he says that it is undemocratic of us to issue a consumer’s alert (we’ve published a booklet on his work) that exposes his hatred of all things Catholic.
“We at the Catholic League never had to run from our work. How pitiful it is to see a grown man slip kids his poisonous pill and then pretend he trusts the reader. We are so happy to have ripped the mask off his face. And the movie doesn’t even open for another five weeks! This is going to be a good ride. Hope Pullman is up to it.”
Copyright © 1997-2007 by Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights.
*Material from this website may be reprinted and disseminated with accompanying attribution.
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hecd2
Guest
(I also posted this on the “This Rock” forum). Well, no-one has to see the film or buy the books - everyone can vote with their wallets (not that that will much affect the box-office takings). I must say however, that I am repelled by the hypocrisy in almost all the posts on this subject, the outrage that a humanist author should present his view of the world to children and adults - people talk about the danger of Pullman indoctrinating children with his atheism, but they fail to acknowledge that indoctrination is precisely what Catholics and other religious people have been doing to their children for centuries. Pullman’s tiny antidote to this wholesale inculcation of faith and belief has resulted in the absurd furore on this thread and elsewhere.
Very few people seem to have actually read the books, but most of those few who have seem to miss the point (a point that does not seem to be missed outside these forums). Reading these forums, you would think that Pullman’s novels are coarse and unsophisticated handbooks of evil.
As I have written before, how dull and unimaginative does one need to be to see these excellent novels as an direct attack on the Catholic Church? ’His Dark Materials’ are anti-clerical for sure, and all the better for that, but they are one of the most truly spiritual works of the last twenty years. Pullman has produced a sustained hymn to the concept of the soul, to love, to self-sacrifice in the pursuit of good, to the special status of people in the universe, and to heroism and individuality. His is an immensely life-enhancing work.
Of course, Pullman excoriates hypocrisy, authoritarianism and the kind of religious observance that diminishes life to a collection of ‘thou shalt nots’. He attacks self-righteousness, sanctimonious cant,and that species of overbearing moral superiority that never admits the possibility of being wrong and which is prepared to destroy individual lives in pursuit of a ‘big idea’.
But let’s focus on the positives. His Dark Materials books are not primarily about being against ideas, but are, rather, about celebrating the finest aspects of humanity. They are astonishingly insightful about the human condition. They teach so much about how to live a good life, without being patronising or preachy. They stand on the side of goodness and our struggle for integrity. They are, in places, deeply affecting – I don’t see how anyone with a heart can read them without crying at some point – and their power to move lies in the profound emotional truth of Pullman’s vision. Who could be unmoved by Lyra’s love for her father, or for Iorek Byrnison*, *or ultimately for Will Parry (all different, all lost in the end, and yet every one consummated in its own beautiful way). How can anyone experience the astonishing cruelty of cutting a daemon from a child, or Lyra and Patalaimon’s devastation at being separated while she fulfils her oath to save Roger, or Will’s growing realisation that his daemon lies within, without learning something about the meaning of the human soul? Who can fail to be inspired by a being as gorgeous and free as Serafina Pekkala (and what genius to create a name of such delicate beauty)? The flaws and the complexities in the characters, even as they struggle through their lives, are the stuff of good literature from Chaucer to Orwell.
Pullman manages this without falling into the mire of sentimentality in which C S Lewis wallows from time to time. His Dark Materials is a deeper, more mature, more satisfying work than the Chronicles of Narnia, because Pullman’s intention is not to teach or preach but to reveal emotional truth. They fully engage sophisticated adult readers. Pullman’s novels are about moral courage and about doing the right thing in the most difficult circumstances. They make a powerful case for living a rich life way beyond the petty materialism that preoccupies most of us. They are deeply, fundamentally spiritual and they call on us to look into our hearts to find a path that we can be proud to follow. And that surely is a good thing. If my children were not already grown up, the trilogy would be filling their Christmas stockings.
Alec
evolutionpages.com
Very few people seem to have actually read the books, but most of those few who have seem to miss the point (a point that does not seem to be missed outside these forums). Reading these forums, you would think that Pullman’s novels are coarse and unsophisticated handbooks of evil.
As I have written before, how dull and unimaginative does one need to be to see these excellent novels as an direct attack on the Catholic Church? ’His Dark Materials’ are anti-clerical for sure, and all the better for that, but they are one of the most truly spiritual works of the last twenty years. Pullman has produced a sustained hymn to the concept of the soul, to love, to self-sacrifice in the pursuit of good, to the special status of people in the universe, and to heroism and individuality. His is an immensely life-enhancing work.
Of course, Pullman excoriates hypocrisy, authoritarianism and the kind of religious observance that diminishes life to a collection of ‘thou shalt nots’. He attacks self-righteousness, sanctimonious cant,and that species of overbearing moral superiority that never admits the possibility of being wrong and which is prepared to destroy individual lives in pursuit of a ‘big idea’.
But let’s focus on the positives. His Dark Materials books are not primarily about being against ideas, but are, rather, about celebrating the finest aspects of humanity. They are astonishingly insightful about the human condition. They teach so much about how to live a good life, without being patronising or preachy. They stand on the side of goodness and our struggle for integrity. They are, in places, deeply affecting – I don’t see how anyone with a heart can read them without crying at some point – and their power to move lies in the profound emotional truth of Pullman’s vision. Who could be unmoved by Lyra’s love for her father, or for Iorek Byrnison*, *or ultimately for Will Parry (all different, all lost in the end, and yet every one consummated in its own beautiful way). How can anyone experience the astonishing cruelty of cutting a daemon from a child, or Lyra and Patalaimon’s devastation at being separated while she fulfils her oath to save Roger, or Will’s growing realisation that his daemon lies within, without learning something about the meaning of the human soul? Who can fail to be inspired by a being as gorgeous and free as Serafina Pekkala (and what genius to create a name of such delicate beauty)? The flaws and the complexities in the characters, even as they struggle through their lives, are the stuff of good literature from Chaucer to Orwell.
Pullman manages this without falling into the mire of sentimentality in which C S Lewis wallows from time to time. His Dark Materials is a deeper, more mature, more satisfying work than the Chronicles of Narnia, because Pullman’s intention is not to teach or preach but to reveal emotional truth. They fully engage sophisticated adult readers. Pullman’s novels are about moral courage and about doing the right thing in the most difficult circumstances. They make a powerful case for living a rich life way beyond the petty materialism that preoccupies most of us. They are deeply, fundamentally spiritual and they call on us to look into our hearts to find a path that we can be proud to follow. And that surely is a good thing. If my children were not already grown up, the trilogy would be filling their Christmas stockings.
Alec
evolutionpages.com
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Nino
Guest
thats so true…Mels.The Passion was just a flick also…mmm.wonder if the secular ones were upset over that one…and lets see…the cute Potter series is also harmless…then a fellow who was a vegetarian and a weekend artist…worte a book called in english…my story…mein something or other…and oh yes…I recall a book called something like Vinci code that was also harmless and just so cool…I recall that this character Leonardo was arrested several times for child abuse and yet still had the power and influence to be able to ‘adopt’ a little boy of 10…called I think Giacomo…and they made a book about this guy and how nice and smart he was…yeh your right…books and films have little impact on society…
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Sabda
Guest
I fail to see how it’s appropriate to attack another group of people in the manner with which Pullman does. Would it be appropriate to talk about Jews, Muslims, blacks, or Native Americans in this light? Yes, ALL people do things that they should not. That does not mean that we should go around and tear down everyone who belongs to that group. What are the main beliefs of Christianity? Is Pullman’s series a good and fair representation of what Christianity believes? If not then Pullman’s series actually misrepresents Christianity and you do not see a problem with a group being misrepresented? Is it fair to the group that is being misrepresented?
On top of this you admit that the books do attack Christianity when you say it is anti-clerical and then go on to say that’s a good thing? Ummm, that same argument could be used against the US or any other group. “Yes, the books are anti-American, black, Native American, Jewish, etc but thats a good thing”. You see no problem with that?
I find it interesting that you make these comments:
That is EXACTLY what Christianity and in particular Catholicism believes in!!! Yet, he is attacking a group that has those exact beliefs! Anyone else see the irony in this?
That describes MANY different groups up to and including whole governments. There are some who would describe our current US government in a similar way. Why didn’t he use some made up group as his evil backdrop? Why did he use Christianity? Which is a REAL religion.
My main concern with this series is that according to Amazon it is rated as PG-13. From everything I have heard it sounds like the books really need a higher rating. What is the rating of the movie? If the movie is rated at PG than that means that parents are going to take their young 7/8 yr old child to see this movie and then get the books for their child for Christmas assuming that the books are just as child appropriate as the movie, which they are not. That is the danger when you tone something down too much. From what I have heard the movie has been seriously toned down so as not to offend. If they felt the series would be that offensive, then why make it?
D
dixieagle
Guest
I agree completely with you on this; I wouldn’t contribute a red cent to their coffers.
D
dixieagle
Guest
Excellent observations. Pullman wasn’t called “the most dangerous author in Britain” for nothing. Here is a link to a detailed New Yorker article about him.
newyorker.com/archive/2005/12/26/051226fa_fact?currentPage=1
He is a brilliant writer, and his novels are fascinating and well crafted. He is delighted to be thought of as a great storyteller. I would not, in a million years, contribute in any way to his success.
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hecd2
Guest
Your fallacy is to confuse work which is negative to a group of people because of who they are by birth (which we call racism or sexism, and which is, indeed, inappropriate), with work that criticises certain ideas or mores of people or groups of people as Pullman has done, which is entirely appropriate.
Well, if you had actually read the books yourself rather than joining in with the howling of the rabble, you would know that Pullman does not describe Christianity or Catholicism per se, but instead he upbraids overbearing authority, self-righteousness and suppression. Let whom the cap fits, wear it.
Do you really fail see the fallacy in your comparison? Anti-clerical does not mean anti-Christian, and whereas it is inappropriate to characterise people on the basis of their race or gender, it is entirely appropriate to criticise beliefs and attitudes. No religion or regime should be above criticism.
Well, perhaps Pullman’s and Benedict’s world views are not so far apart as you think - except, as I said, Pullman is anti-clerical and anti-authoritarian, and all the better for it.
They might have a point, don’t you think?
As you haven’t actually read the book, let me explain that Christianity or Catholicism as it exists today does not appear explicitly in the books. Of course he does attack certain attitudes which are common to much religion, including Christianity, Judaism, Islam and others, but why shouldn’t he do that? Why should any religion be above criticism, or ridicule, or satire?
The books are not for seven or eight year olds, not because of their secular views, but because they require considerable sophistication to understand them. As for offending, why would one *not *write books that are offensive? - good literature is not intended to mollify us by saccharine sentiment or comforting reinforcement - it is meant to subvert and unsettle us and make us think hard about our received opinions and our place in the world. That is the purpose of serious literature.
Alec
evolutionpages.com
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Montie_Claunch
Guest
I have heard that the Golden Compass movie is supposed to be really bad and anti-religious. I haven’t quite picked up why. Does anyone know about this? Thanks and God bless.
P
PhilVaz
Guest
Well here’s an audio clip from book 3 The Amber Spyglass, basically the punchline when the two “gay” angels give the low-down on “The Authority” (angel gone bad) and “dust” (Materialism philosophy) to “Will” : 
His Dark Materials: Amber Spyglass excerpt (MP3)
Phil P
His Dark Materials: Amber Spyglass excerpt (MP3)
Phil P
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hecd2
Guest
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PhilVaz
Guest
OK here’s some info from an Amazon.com review (I have the single volume with all 3 books and all audio, but haven’t finished them) :
Summary of His Dark Materials (3 books published 1995-2000) by Philip Pullman from Amazon.com review, first volume is a Dec 2007 movie “The Golden Compass” (originally titled “Northern Lights” in the U.K.).
A summary of how the Pullman method works:
The Golden Compass (book 1) is a compelling action adventure of a young, smart, defiant, and spirited pre-adolescent (12-year old) girl. There are dark characters, ugly episodes and wicked happenings in this volume, but spunky Lyra is up to the challenge. And, she has cool friends (noble gypsies and armored bears, among others) to help her.
In The Subtle Knife (book 2) we meet Lyra’s male counterpart Will. By the end of this also dark and rather convoluted part of the story we like Will a lot, too. And we hate the bad guys, although sometimes it’s hard to tell just who the bad guys are. Will finds himself possessing a knife that only he can use; a knife that allows him to open windows into other, sometimes parallel, worlds.
Now that Mr. Pullman has set his stage (and the child has a significant investment in the story), he force-feeds the unsuspecting reader his world view in The Amber Spyglass (book 3). Yes, there is some foreshadowing of what’s coming in the first volumes, but until we get to the third volume we keep hoping that these are literary red herrings thrown in just to keep us off balance. Alas, no such luck.
In short order Mr. Pullman informs us that:
– The God of Judaism and Christianity is a fake, a liar, a dictatorial despot, a draconian authoritarian intent on making everybody miserable. Mr. Pullman’s definition of “god, the Creator, the Lord, Yahweh, El, Adonai, the King, the Father the Almighty” is that he is the source of everything that’s wrong with the world.
– The church is run by self-serving, power-hungry dupes and mercenaries who ensure God’s tyranny is carried out. Everyone else of faith is discounted as a closed-minded simpleton who wouldn’t know what to do without being told.
– The health of this world and all of Pullman’s “billions and billions” of other worlds is dependent on invisible, sentient dust, reminiscent of the Mitichlorians behind “The Force” of Star Wars lore. This dust is the product of man’s gaining wisdom, a “natural” process that Pullman places in direct opposition to man’s knowledge of God.
– The “good guys” in this world are the secular naturalists, the amoral, the animals, the witches, and the rebellious angels who have set out to help overthrow and destroy God, and
– Elite, self-actualized young men and women of character (like the reader, of course) possess the power to destroy God, and should destroy God because, after all, it’s the right thing to do. With the assurance of Lyra’s and Will’s feelings that if we do destroy God then all will be well with the world and we will be happy.
Phil P
Summary of His Dark Materials (3 books published 1995-2000) by Philip Pullman from Amazon.com review, first volume is a Dec 2007 movie “The Golden Compass” (originally titled “Northern Lights” in the U.K.).
A summary of how the Pullman method works:
The Golden Compass (book 1) is a compelling action adventure of a young, smart, defiant, and spirited pre-adolescent (12-year old) girl. There are dark characters, ugly episodes and wicked happenings in this volume, but spunky Lyra is up to the challenge. And, she has cool friends (noble gypsies and armored bears, among others) to help her.
In The Subtle Knife (book 2) we meet Lyra’s male counterpart Will. By the end of this also dark and rather convoluted part of the story we like Will a lot, too. And we hate the bad guys, although sometimes it’s hard to tell just who the bad guys are. Will finds himself possessing a knife that only he can use; a knife that allows him to open windows into other, sometimes parallel, worlds.
Now that Mr. Pullman has set his stage (and the child has a significant investment in the story), he force-feeds the unsuspecting reader his world view in The Amber Spyglass (book 3). Yes, there is some foreshadowing of what’s coming in the first volumes, but until we get to the third volume we keep hoping that these are literary red herrings thrown in just to keep us off balance. Alas, no such luck.
In short order Mr. Pullman informs us that:
– The God of Judaism and Christianity is a fake, a liar, a dictatorial despot, a draconian authoritarian intent on making everybody miserable. Mr. Pullman’s definition of “god, the Creator, the Lord, Yahweh, El, Adonai, the King, the Father the Almighty” is that he is the source of everything that’s wrong with the world.
– The church is run by self-serving, power-hungry dupes and mercenaries who ensure God’s tyranny is carried out. Everyone else of faith is discounted as a closed-minded simpleton who wouldn’t know what to do without being told.
– The health of this world and all of Pullman’s “billions and billions” of other worlds is dependent on invisible, sentient dust, reminiscent of the Mitichlorians behind “The Force” of Star Wars lore. This dust is the product of man’s gaining wisdom, a “natural” process that Pullman places in direct opposition to man’s knowledge of God.
– The “good guys” in this world are the secular naturalists, the amoral, the animals, the witches, and the rebellious angels who have set out to help overthrow and destroy God, and
– Elite, self-actualized young men and women of character (like the reader, of course) possess the power to destroy God, and should destroy God because, after all, it’s the right thing to do. With the assurance of Lyra’s and Will’s feelings that if we do destroy God then all will be well with the world and we will be happy.
Phil P
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PhilVaz
Guest
Alec << As you haven’t actually read the book, let me explain that Christianity or Catholicism as it exists today does not appear explicitly in the books. >>
Well even in the trailer to The Golden Compass they refer to “The Magisterium.” That’s Catholicism to anyone who’s read Vatican II. But I confess I should read the trilogy. Also got the audio using BitTorrent. They could have changed it to The Magiclorians to hide the target a little.
I’ll get to your Berthault Geology paper, looks good when I skimmed it. Tim (Orogeny) can give you good advice.
Phil P
Well even in the trailer to The Golden Compass they refer to “The Magisterium.” That’s Catholicism to anyone who’s read Vatican II. But I confess I should read the trilogy. Also got the audio using BitTorrent. They could have changed it to The Magiclorians to hide the target a little.
I’ll get to your Berthault Geology paper, looks good when I skimmed it. Tim (Orogeny) can give you good advice.
Phil P
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