Catholic League anounces boycott of "Golden Compass"

[Joe_Kelley]

Re the power of fiction - It would seem that Jesus’ parables are fiction — and quite influential.

 

[PassionateRC]

Thank you for the information regarding this film. I so appreciate the reinforcement that it is my responsibilty as a parent to guide and direct my children in responsible choices of literature,music, television etc. I sometimes feel as if I’m the only one out there setting boundries and not worrying about being my children’s friend instead of their parent. Anything that attacks the Church and their faith is of prime importance! God gave us that responsibilty.

 

[alessandro]

I would also appreciate help with maintaining the Wikipedia page dedicated to the film. Atheist fans have control of the page and insist on deleting most of the information regarding the reasoning behind the boycott.

Sometime in mid-October, I had added the following section to Wikipedia’s entry of The Golden Compass (Northern Lights):

==Religious Perspective==

The ‘‘His Dark Materials’’ books have been controversial with some [Christianity|Christian]] groups. [Peter Hitchens]] has claimed that Pullman actively pursues an anti-Christian agenda, having stated, “This is the most dangerous author in Britain.”{{cite web|url=http://home.wlv.ac.uk/~bu1895/hitchens.htm|title=‘This is the most dangerous author in Britain’|accessdate=2006-09-21|author=Hitchens, Peter|format=Mail on Sunday article|publisher=The Mail on Sunday}} Hitchens views the ‘’[His Dark Materials]]’’ series as a direct rebuttal of C. S. Lewis’s series.{{cite news|url=http://www.lewrockwell.com/spectator/spec11.html|title= A labour of loathing|accessdate=2006-09-21|author=Hitchens, Peter|format=Spectator article|publisher=spectator.co.uk/ The Spectator]}}

At first glance, The Golden Compass movie itself may seem mild and innocent, and an exciting children’s tale. Indeed, it shares much with the Chronicles of Narnia. For example, both The Golden Compass and Narnia feature children facing adult moral choices, talking animals, religious allegories, parallel worlds, and concern the ultimate fate of those worlds. They even begin the same way, with a young girl hiding in a wardrobe.

But the similarities end there. In the trilogy, a young streetwise girl becomes enmeshed in an epic struggle to ultimately defeat the oppressive forces of a senile God. Another character, an ex-nun, describes Christianity as “a very powerful and convincing mistake.” In the final book, characters representing Adam and Eve eventually kill God, who at times is called YAHWEH. Each book in the trilogy gets progressively worse regarding Pullman’s hatred of Jesus Christ.

I didn’t mention the boycott, but I did want to explain the true nature of His Dark Materials.

Apparently, my entry was modified by others to be pro-Pullman, modified back to be anti-Pullman, and then removed altogether. (You can tell by reviewing the editing history in Wikipedia.)

I have restored the section as printed above. Please help to keep the section updated – you can just copy and paste the above section back into the page source if it is deleted again… or feel free to add more information. (Keep in mind, however, if you make unsubstantiated claims, even if they help to keep kids away from these books/movies/video games, then others will just delete it.)

 

[infabilly]

Children grow in their ability to discern fiction from fact as they mature. Until that point we, as parents, have to protect them and guide their development.

Fiction is a powerful tool for propaganda and I am surprised that people don’t understand this. Do you realize that one of the reasons that we see the poorhouses or debtors jails of the Victorian age as being bad is because of fiction writers like Dickens?

Fiction is much more powerful then nonfiction because it is entertaining, so we relax our mind as we read. We aren’t on guard against negative influences, especially if the writer is talented.

As adults-or older teens-we can read the background of a writer and discern his views and understand how those views are incoporated into his/her book. Children take everything at face value. That is why we need to protect them and their faith.

So, we shouldn’t let children watch Disney movies and/or read positive fairy tales.

A kid at my church won’t eat vegetables because of Veggietales, no matter what his parents tell him.

 

[Dandelion_Wine]

So, we shouldn’t let children watch Disney movies and/or read positive fairy tales.

Let me quote you.

lol@taking things out of context and over exaggerating.

 

[deb1]

So, we shouldn’t let children watch Disney movies and/or read positive fairy tales.

A kid at my church won’t eat vegetables because of Veggietales, no matter what his parents tell him.

I see a difference between Disney tales(Which are admittedly overly sweet and mess up good stories) and a book that kills God and makes Lucifer the good guy.

Fairy tales are pretty good moral tales. If you act correctly, don’t talk to strangers, are polite or brave then you get rewarded. If you do wrong, like telling lies then you get punished. Personally I like fairy tales and as I’ve said before, I like fantasy. I thought that Harry Potter had good morals, although parents should discuss some questionable parts with their children.

Its ironic that you called Dandilion wine on the 'giving your children play boy 'quote but you make the same type of jump in logic from my post.

As far as the child with a fear of eating vegetables, it is possible that this kid has hit on a unique technique to avoid eating something that he doesn’t want to eat anyway. I have four kids and it is never fails to surprise me their cleverness when it comes to avoiding vegetables.

 

[alessandro]

Administrators at Wikipedia have repeatedly removed entries regarding the religious perspectives in The Golden Compass and Philip Pullman’s work. Here’s an entry that I had recently posted:

Northern Lights (aka The Golden Compass) has been controversial with many Christian groups, as they argue that, in it and the other His Dark Materials books, Pullman actively pursues anti-Christian agenda. At first glance, The Golden Compass itself may seem mild and innocent, and an exciting children’s tale. Indeed, it shares much with the Chronicles of Narnia. For example, both The Golden Compass and Narnia feature children facing adult moral choices, talking animals, religious allegories, parallel worlds, and concern the ultimate fate of those worlds. They even begin the same way, with a young girl hiding in a wardrobe. But the similarities end there – as the main plot features a young streetwise girl who becomes enmeshed in an epic struggle to ultimately defeat the oppressive forces of a senile God.

Each book in the trilogy gets progressively worse regarding Pullman’s militant atheism. Detailed discussion of the religious perspectives in Pullman’s work are present on Pullman’s wikipedia page.

The Golden Compass book, movie and video game are being boycotted by the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights (catholicleague.org).

My entries were deleted within two minutes by the administrator. His response:

Please do not add commentary or your own personal analysis to Wikipedia articles, as you did to Philip Pullman. Doing so violates Wikipedia’s neutral point of view policy and breaches the formal tone expected in an encyclopedia. If you would like to experiment, use the sandbox. Thank you. Specifically, the part about Pullman’s “hatred of Jesus Christ.” Same with Northern Lights (novel). Again, you’re going to need to avoid value judgments such as “progressively worse”, and limit yourself to relying on reliable sources rather than your own opinion. NawlinWiki (talk) 17:58, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

But then why was some pro-Pullman discussion left on the main Pullman page? Consider this:

Pullman has found support from other Christians, most notably Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury. These groups and individuals point out that Pullman’s negative portrayal of the “Church” in His Dark Materials amounts to an attack on dogmatism and the use of religion to oppress, not on Christianity itself. Dr. Williams has gone so far as to propose that His Dark Materials in schools. Moreover, even authors of works dedicated to critical appraisals of religious themes in his writing have described Pullman as a friendly and generous debating partner be taught as part of religious education[8].

Other Christian writers, such as Kurt Bruner and Jim Ware, while finding his anti-Christian position troubling, “also uncover spiritual themes within the books, which, like shafts of light, break through an otherwise gloomy universe—despite Pullman’s best efforts to keep them out. In the end, the authors argue that Pullman offers an unwitting tribute to the God he intended to discredit.”[9] in their book Shedding Light on His Dark Materials.

My response to the admin:

As you’re an administrator, there’s no way for me to fight you by re-adding this content. However, I feel that your removal of this discussion is biased in the opposite direction and borders on being anti-Catholic. What I wrote was a general statement of the Christian perspective of the book and Pullman’s work in general, with some specific quotes from Pullman himself. I even modified my own entries on the The Golden Compass page to LIMIT discussion to the religious perspectives present in that work itself, while posting a note that religious perspectives of Pullman’s other work were discussed at greater length on the main Philip Pullman page. Instead of just removing what I wrote, why don’t you help me rephrase it so the discussion is still there, but it is referenced appropriately to be accepted. Please don’t abuse your administrative authority.

Yet another demonstration that secular humanists rule the world and that anti-Catholicism is one of the few biases that is openly tolerated in the U.S./Europe today.

 

[GAHere]

Administrators at Wikipedia have repeatedly removed entries regarding the religious perspectives in The Golden Compass and Philip Pullman’s work. Here’s an entry that I had recently posted:My entries were deleted within two minutes by the administrator.

Alessandro,

From what I read in that particular post of yours there is a distinct difference between your writing and that of the others.

Note that the others quote what the pro-Pullman groups say about him and the books.

You only mention ‘christian groups’ and then go on to make your statement. It appears, upon first reading, that you are just making your own comment there. You wrote:

many Christian groups, as they argue that, in it and the other His Dark Materials books, Pullman actively pursues anti-Christian agenda.

You don’t follow through with a list of those groups.
You state ‘they argue that…’ but you don’t quote their arguments.
It appears you are summarizing what you’ve read from various groups and that’s editorializing.

Next you write:

At first glance, The Golden Compass itself may seem mild and innocent, and an exciting children’s tale.

and then some. Who said ‘at first glance’? Was it the Catholic League? Was it another Christian organization? Are you saying it?

If what you wrote is a quote from the Catholic League, then you need to lead into the passage with “The Catholic League states …” and then in quotations add the rest of that text.

If the Catholic League is your only resource then you can’t use the plural ‘groups’ either. If you’re going to use ‘groups’ then find another Christian group, post their name, cite them as a source and insert their words in quotations.

It’s not so much that Wikipedia is censoring religious perspectives as much as they are being sticklers about making sure personal editorializing stays off the pages.

 

[alessandro]

@GAHere,

Thanks for the comments.

I did include references that I didn’t transcribe when I (name removed by moderator)ut the text here. (The references were superscripts that linked to various sources and were listed at the bottom of the page.)

 

[nacharle]

I for one, don’t intend to see The Golden Compass - I don’t care that ‘Nicole Kidman’ is in it. Her movies have not been good recently anyway.

 

[TheAwesomeOne]

I thought the movie looked pretty stupid anyway… After reading about how anti-Christian it is, it seems even worse! Who would want to waste 2 hours of their day to watch such a stupid piece of ****??:banghead:

 

[infabilly]

I see a difference between Disney tales(Which are admittedly overly sweet and mess up good stories) and a book that kills God and makes Lucifer the good guy.

In a few posts, I saw somebody saying “a God” - people could interpret that as any god they want. Then this “Yahweh” title comes up. I haven’t seen the movie, so I wouldn’t know. I’m a Christian and I still want to see The Golden Compass. I wouldn’t take a movie like that to heart, and to me it’ll just be a fantasy fairy tale story originally written up by a ****-y (I’m sure the “p” word will be edited) little man.

Fairy tales are pretty good moral tales. If you act correctly, don’t talk to strangers, are polite or brave then you get rewarded. If you do wrong, like telling lies then you get punished. Personally I like fairy tales and as I’ve said before, I like fantasy. I thought that Harry Potter had good morals, although parents should discuss some questionable parts with their children.

But the Disney ones were originally from the Grimm brothers, right? I think it was in Sleeping Beauty, Princess Aurora was raped in her sleep by the prince.

Its ironic that you called Dandilion wine on the 'giving your children play boy 'quote but you make the same type of jump in logic from my post.

I can’t be even a little sarcastic?

As far as the child with a fear of eating vegetables, it is possible that this kid has hit on a unique technique to avoid eating something that he doesn’t want to eat anyway. I have four kids and it is never fails to surprise me their cleverness when it comes to avoiding vegetables.

But other kids I know, including my niece, watch Veggietales but love vegetables.
This kid reminds me of this other kid I heard of from the Ellen show, who flushed his fish down the toilet after watching Finding Nemo because he wanted him to live in the ocean.

 

[infabilly]

I thought the movie looked pretty stupid anyway… After reading about how anti-Christian it is, it seems even worse! Who would want to waste 2 hours of their day to watch such a stupid piece of ********??:banghead:

“Going to heaven someday!” - Are you sure?

 

[infabilly]

Meh, it looks awesome. Sure it isn’t the most religious film, but it hardly deserves a boycott from anyone.

I’m all for this. :B

 

[TheAwesomeOne]

“Going to heaven someday!” - Are you sure?

Yes, I am sure.

 

[deb1]

In a few posts, I saw somebody saying “a God” - people could interpret that as any god they want. Then this “Yahweh” title comes up. I haven’t seen the movie, so I wouldn’t know. I’m a Christian and I still want to see The Golden Compass. I wouldn’t take a movie like that to heart, and to me it’ll just be a fantasy fairy tale story originally written up by a ****-y (I’m sure the “p” word will be edited) little man.

I am sure that the movie will be good because I don’t want to put money in Pullman’s pockets, I won’t pay to see this movie. There is a good possibilty that my neighbor might get this eventually. If so, I might watch the movie with their family.

But the Disney ones were originally from the Grimm brothers, right? I think it was in Sleeping Beauty, Princess Aurora was raped in her sleep by the prince.

the original fairy tales were pretty violent and weren’t just for children. I’m strange because I love fairytales even as an adult. Come on Hansel and Gretel deal with canabilisim and child abandonment. How can anyone think that these would be mainly for kids?

I always loved fairy tales but its only recently that I’ve started hearing about the Sleeping Beauty rape thing. I don’t know if its an urbane legend or not. Some people think that the adage rule of thumb comes from the thickness of a stick allowed to beat your wife, but this to has been proven an urban legend that has gotten spread about by even educated people.

I can’t be even a little sarcastic?

Sure. I am all the time.

But other kids I know, including my niece, watch Veggietales but love vegetables.
This kid reminds me of this other kid I heard of from the Ellen show, who flushed his fish down the toilet after watching Finding Nemo because he wanted him to live in the ocean.

Maybe he is just a strange kid. I like to watch the more violent animal shows with my kids, you know the type in which the lion actually EATS the baby antelope. I’m an animal nut myself but I refuse to let my children believe that nature isn’t savage or that animals are anything more then animals.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

In a few posts, I saw somebody saying “a God” - people could interpret that as any god they want. Then this “Yahweh” title comes up. I haven’t seen the movie, so I wouldn’t know. . . …

You can be sure they won’t reference Allah.
Remember the opera problem in Germany - they could bring in the severed heads of Jesus and Buddha but not Mohammed.

 

[jthiel]

To start off I would like to provide a little biographical information. I am 17 and Roman Catholic. I HAVE read the series several times. My first time reading it was at the age of 10. I will be the first to admit that the books are very critical of organized religion and of Catholicism, but many of the books positions have meen misrepresented or misinterpreted in my opinion. The trilogy does not attack Christianity, nor does it ever make an attack on the existence of God or a creator. It only attacks what, in my view and Pullman’s, is a very dangerous interpretation of God and of the power of organized religion. He attacks the authoritarian power of many churches, the belief that people of faith should simply accept church teaching and the many attempts by many churches throughout history to squash dissent instead of rationally proving it to be wrong(much like many in this forum are trying to do.)

 

[jthiel]

To start off I would like to provide a little biographical information. I am 17 and Roman Catholic. I HAVE read the series several times. My first time reading it was at the age of 10. I will be the first to admit that the books are very critical of organized religion and of Catholicism, but many of the books positions have been misrepresented or misinterpreted in my opinion. The trilogy does not attack Christianity, nor does it ever make an attack on the existence of God or a creator. It only attacks what, in my view and Pullman’s, is a very dangerous interpretation of God and of the power of organized religion. He attacks the authoritarian power of many churches, the belief that people of faith should simply accept church teaching and the many attempts by many churches throughout history to squash dissent instead of rationally proving it to be wrong(much like many in this forum are trying to do.)

The main plan in this forum is to boycott this book in order to protect our children from possibly dangerous viewpoints. I think this is flawed for a few different reasons. First is the idea that the best way to protect our children is to shield them from all alternate viewpoints. I can see shielding them from pornography, which is universally seen as morally abhorrent, but these books don’t advocate satanism or tell children to become sexually promiscuous; they simply provide an alternate worldview, and one that has its own share of morality. I think it would create a far better person if parents led their children through such ideas, allowing them to read these books and then pointing out the inherent flaws and the reasons why Christianity is preferable. This would create a better informed child who can think critically and actually has the knowledge needed to defend his or her faith. In fact, if all Catholics followed such a philosophy I can only see it increasing our faith. Instead of condemning the Koran as evil because of some of the evils it has cause in its religion, we would read it, understand it, and be prepared to defend our faith against its ideas.( I have read portions of the Koran, although I admit I haven’t read it in its entirety.)

My second problem is the idea that these books will sway our children to atheism. I read them at 10 and they had no such effect over me. Even if they did bring our children to the “dark side,” Pullman’s books are not evil. The lead characters present strong morals and many admirable qualities, so in many ways it is far preferable to our children being brought under the sway of what they see on television, which I think is a far more likely scenario. Also, if we truly believe in our faith, why would a set of fantasy novels make us revert to atheism? Are the ideas of Christianity truly so frail that we must hide from the ideas of one author? I don’t believe so, but if that is the case then I think we need to reevaluate our religion.

Finally, I think these books have been badly represented. Depending on your interpretation of the books they can be incredibly spiritual. An angel, posing as the creator is killed–he represents the world’s tyranny oppression and ignorance. In his place Pullman put’s dust, a particle that represents sentience and love. The more we seek knowledge, the more we try to understand our world, the more we love the more dust is created and the more dust we attract. In my view dust is a representation of God, and a beautiful one at that.

The third book in this series is probably the most beautiful book I have ever read. In it two children face incredible dangers and bear incredible burdens in search of a lost friend. They learn the power of sacrifice, courage, fortitude and, finally, love. They face these dangers not because they have placed faith in something they were told, but in a search for their own truth. Call Pullman’s books atheist if you will, but don’t ever say that they aren’t beautiful. In my view Pullman’s book present some good arguments against organized religion. We as Christians should work to improve our church so his criticism’s can no longer be made. Most of all we should stop avoiding dissenting opinions and protect our faith in the most effective way we can, by reading and knowing our critics so we can rebut them.

 

[jthiel]

Also

• Promotion of the occult
• Endorsement of relativism as an acceptable system of belief
• Heretical portrayal of the human person

This was posted in the biographical forum–each was not found in the books in my opinion.

Also–there is NO sexual action in the books. Never does any sexual act explicitly take place. There is one point where you can add such an action if you want to take innuendo to its farthest extent.

You are obviously oblivious to the impact this movie and these books can have on our children. Since you are just a teenager you would not understand. Your frontal lobe of your brain is not fully developed yet so you are not thinking straight. Not only that, you are not a parent concerned about his/her children.

–This was posted earlier in this forum. I think it is one of the most biased and ignorant remarks I have ever come across. As a teenager I take offence. I personally know many people my age who probably are probably far more intelligent and have a far greater understanding of the world than the author of this post. Perhaps next time he or she should use logic and thought out arguments (as I have hopefully done above) to express their points instead of only attacking the age of their opponent. Ad hominem attacks are as a rule less effective than rational debate.