Catholic League anounces boycott of "Golden Compass"

[infabilly]

jthiel: A new forum hero.

I completely agree though. Kind of sucks somebody thought age was relevant when it comes to these kinds of issues/debates/etc. I’ve met handfuls of very intelligent kids under 17, and a handful of people 21 years of age and older that weren’t so bright, and a few who tried to use their age as an excuse for their “superiority”.
I haven’t read Pullman’s books, but I’d like to. Mostly I want to find somebody to see The Golden Compass with me. Paying for the movie doesn’t mean you’re supporting atheism. deb1 might have been implying that, though money was already in his pockets.

And your posts got me thinking, jthiel… if the book/movie got a child to sway from God, the parent must not be doing a good job at keeping his/her child on the right track, right?

A lot of overprotective parents will try to shelter their children from reality. My aunt does that to her kids and it’s kinda sad, they’re going to be completely screwed when they get out into the world. They’re smart, but when they see what’s going on in the “secular” part of the world, they’ll be in for a shock. The oldest one at least makes the effort to know what’s out there and form an opinion, the other two might not even do that (the middle one not knowing what abortion is).

And I heard this in my church before; Jesus dislikes organized religion, right? :v

 

[deb1]

You are obviously oblivious to the impact this movie and these books can have on our children. Since you are just a teenager you would not understand. Your frontal lobe of your brain is not fully developed yet so you are not thinking straight. Not only that, you are not a parent concerned about his/her children.

–This was posted earlier in this forum. I think it is one of the most biased and ignorant remarks I have ever come across. As a teenager I take offence. I personally know many people my age who probably are probably far more intelligent and have a far greater understanding of the world than the author of this post. Perhaps next time he or she should use logic and thought out arguments (as I have hopefully done above) to express their points instead of only attacking the age of their opponent. Ad hominem attacks are as a rule less effective than rational debate.

Although I agree that there are examples of teenagers much more mature then some grownups-my oldest son would be an example-it is true that the brain of teenagers aren’t fully developed yet.

 

[deb1]

The Golden Compass with me. Paying for the movie doesn’t mean you’re supporting atheism. deb1 might have been implying that, though money was already in his pockets.

No, I don’t have any trouble with atheist writing good children’s book. His belief system has no particular affect(effect?) on my wanting to buy the book. Thus far, it seems that he is anti christian and he gets money from the sale of his books and movies. WHy would I pay to assist him making money, when I can get the books free from the library?

nd your posts got me thinking, jthiel… if the book/movie got a child to sway from God, the parent must not be doing a good job at keeping his/her child on the right track, right?

This is called parenting. Adults read the books and listen to others comments and come to an educated decision about allowing their children to read or not read the book. That is how kids become strong in their faith because their parents are constantly sorting through these issues.

lot of overprotective parents will try to shelter their children from reality. My aunt does that to her kids and it’s kinda sad, they’re going to be completely screwed when they get out into the world. They’re smart, but when they see what’s going on in the “secular” part of the world, they’ll be in for a shock. The oldest one at least makes the effort to know what’s out there and form an opinion, the other two might not even do that (the middle one not knowing what abortion is).

I don’t know if your aunt is doing this or not, but no protecting your kids from every evil in the world won’t help. I know parents who won’t discuss sex with their kids. But good parents take into account their child’s age and maturity in order to decide what they are ready for. That’s the parents’ job.

I had a brother-in-law who used to get drunk every night, and pass out. He hung out with violent people to boot. I refused to visit my sister-in-laws house with my children. Not only did he frighten me but I didn’t want to act as though his behavior was normal. My sister-in-law got angry and said that I couldn’t protect my children from the evil in the world. They were going to see drunk people anyway. Um…yes that is true. But they didn’t need to experience everything in order to know that it exists. The same is true of the Pullman series. My younger children don’t need to experience reading his series in order to know discuss and know the issues he brings up.

And I heard this in my church before; Jesus dislikes organized religion, right? :v

Jesus was Jewish. He practiced his religion. In fact he said that he had not come to abolish the law. He didn’t like ***meaningless ***tradition though.

 

[jthiel]

Although I agree that there are examples of teenagers much more mature then some grownups-my oldest son would be an example-it is true that the brain of teenagers aren’t fully developed yet.

I agree it’s true that the teenage brain is not fully developed, but this has no bearing on the merits of our arguments. Neither I nor the person who the original post was directed at had to reveal that we were teenagers, yet the poster attacked our age group instead of our arguments.

 

[deb1]

I agree it’s true that the teenage brain is not fully developed, but this has no bearing on the merits of our arguments. Neither I nor the person who the original post was directed at had to reveal that we were teenagers, yet the poster attacked our age group instead of our arguments.

I agree with you on this. Some of the young people on this forum are amazingly articulate and well informed. And you deserve to have the basic arguement discussed, not your brain development.

I would have no problem with a child of your age and ability to reason reading Pullman’s books as long as they would discuss the issues with me. I don’t want my 11 year old daughter-who is the age range the books are aimed at-to read the novels yet.

 

[AlegreFe]

Ooh, could it actually be a fiction story? A fairy tale? Something that one does not take seriously? That’s how children are going to see it. The only other way they’re going to see the opposite is up to the parents. I’ve had my share of my mom telling me not to wear white because it attracts stains, to not watch some movie or tv show because it’s stupid (I’m 21 years old and she’s still telling me these things).
I’d much rather have a child to have the ability to be skilled in criticism and form opinions of his/her own. How else are movie critics made? Or even book critics.

It figures someone so young and still not mature would say something like this. You’re only 21 and therefore not fully developed yet in the brain. This is not to be rude but it is just fact.

This movie should not be out at all. I don’t care how many parents are out there telling kids not to take this seriously, it should not be shown. This movie is made to attack Christianity and especially Catholicism. I see you are not Catholic and you hate religion. You are so WRONG in saying that Jesus does not like religion. God is the one who started religion in the old testament. Jesus came to fulfill and perfect it and that is how Catholicism started. Catholicism is the fulfillment of Judism.

Don’t worry, one day you will “see the light” and learn that religion is what Jesus established when He established His Catholic Church.

I would not want my 14 year old to read any of these novels EVER, not even when she gets older. And that is not because I don’t trust her ability to differentiate truth from fiction; she is very capable of doing that. There is just no need for her (or I for that matter) to read these books. There are so many more books out there that she wants to read and she does not want to waste her time on such nonsense books. My 14 year old is more mature than many teenagers out there. She can decide and has decided that she would never want to read such books as these.

And another thing, if you think “this place is poopy,” then why are you here?

 

[AlegreFe]

Re the power of fiction - It would seem that Jesus’ parables are fiction — and quite influential.

I think you better read your own statement again. You’ve got to be kidding right? Huge difference with Jesus telling his parables and the stupid fiction that is put out there these days.

 

[deb1]

I think you better read your own statement again. You’ve got to be kidding right? Huge difference with Jesus telling his parables and the stupid fiction that is put out there these days.

I think that he was responding to someone who said, but its just fiction.

 

[NoxSineStellae]

I always loved fairy tales but its only recently that I’ve started hearing about the Sleeping Beauty rape thing. I don’t know if its an urbane legend or not.

I’ve read a version of the story from a book with a print date of 1830, so it’s at least that old. What happened was instead of a kiss, the prince had sex with her (they were promised to each other, after all, and he thought she was dead She becomes pregnant with twins, the Sun and the Moon, they’re born, nurse, crawl around, and one day suck the poisoned splinter out of her finger and she wakes up.

It’s fact that Perrault cleaned them up in 1697 for his collection of stories…HOW different he made them I don’t know for a fact. I just know that the older the edition, the creepier and more violent they are. Sleeping Beauty doesn’t even come close to the grotesqueness of older Cinderella retellings.

 

[deb1]

I’ve read a version of the story from a book with a print date of 1830, so it’s at least that old. What happened was instead of a kiss, the prince had sex with her (they were promised to each other, after all, and he thought she was dead She becomes pregnant with twins, the Sun and the Moon, they’re born, nurse, crawl around, and one day suck the poisoned splinter out of her finger and she wakes up.

It’s fact that Perrault cleaned them up in 1697 for his collection of stories…HOW different he made them I don’t know for a fact. I just know that the older the edition, the creepier and more violent they are. Sleeping Beauty doesn’t even come close to the grotesqueness of older Cinderella retellings.

That doesn’t sound like rape just very warped sex. The original fairy tales were meant for adults not kids, though. I’d love to find some of the original tales.

 

[NoxSineStellae]

That doesn’t sound like rape just very warped sex. The original fairy tales were meant for adults not kids, though. I’d love to find some of the original tales.

I agree - sort of. I do think it is rape, as we understand it today. Otherwise, it would be ok for a man to roofie his wife/girlfriend and have his way with her. But the law views that as rape.

But when these stories were written, it was impossible for a man to rape his wife (and bethrothed=married for all intents and purposes) and I don’t believe it was intended to be viewed as a rape in the context.

Have you read Roald Dahl’s take on the classic fairy tales? They’re disturbing and decidedly un-childlike, but not as horrible as the older, more authentic Grimm.

 

[deb1]

I agree - sort of. I do think it is rape, as we understand it today. Otherwise, it would be ok for a man to roofie his wife/girlfriend and have his way with her. But the law views that as rape.

But when these stories were written, it was impossible for a man to rape his wife (and bethrothed=married for all intents and purposes) and I don’t believe it was intended to be viewed as a rape in the context.

Have you read Roald Dahl’s take on the classic fairy tales? They’re disturbing and decidedly un-childlike, but not as horrible as the older, more authentic Grimm.

Well, I admit that I would view sex with an unconscious woman as rape. I thought that the Prince thought she was dead…which is probably worse.

 

[NoxSineStellae]

Well, I admit that I would view sex with an unconscious woman as rape. I thought that the Prince thought she was dead…which is probably worse.

The Prince did think she was dead (readers knew she was sleeping) and discovered her awake with the babies when he came back for seconds :bigyikes:

I’m not sure which is worse - necrophilia is undeniably horrible, but the soul of the victim is gone, it’s just a shell, and cannot be damaged. Interesting ethical question though.

 

[child_of_God85]

What I hate is how people seem to think children are idiots and will surely become athiests after seeing the movie or reading the books. When I was a child I had enough brains to see the difference between fact and fiction.
I saw something of the news about this movie last night. A women came on to give her opinion. She was a very devout catholic, and even said that she attends mass 6 times a week. She also said that books like this do not worry her in the least. She went on to say that reading books like this can help some people become stronger in their faith. She also said that it’s stupid how people are so worried and outraged about this movie that they completely ignore the Priests and Nuns being murdered over seas for their faith. I think we need to put things in perspective and stop talking about some silly movie.

 

[Greg72]

What I hate is how people seem to think children are idiots and will surely become athiests after seeing the movie or reading the books. When I was a child I had enough brains to see the difference between fact and fiction. .

When I was a child, I didn’t need a whole lot of encouragement to rebel against Mommy and Daddy’s religion.

When I was 22 (your age) I still didn’t realize how many stupid mistakes I made and just how right my parents were about so many things.

Still, I don’t believe that children are idiots, but that adults who leave them to their own devices are.

 

[venusekt]

Thank you, that was a good read.

I have a couple of questions that may help me understand the issue here, as I am very unfamiliar with it. I understand the series is an alternate reality of sorts. That being said, is the issue here that this series is in an alternate reality without God as He truly is, or that it could cause doubt in childrens’ minds about God, or that is somehow tries to portray this “God” as fact against what we believe, etc? I guess what I’m asking is what single issue is causing the uproar? (Like I said, I have no knowledge of this series whatsoever other than the link you provided).

You are absolutely correct about the alternate reality thing. As someone who has just finished re-reading all three books, I can clarify a little. There are two major universes/worlds and many minor ones in the plot. Lyra’s world is the one where the Magisterium (which many read as a direct comparison to our Catholic church) is trying to eradicate original sin. Will’s world is our world and there is very little discussion about the Catholic church at all. One woman trying to help them was formerly a nun, but left the church in a crisis of faith and became a scientist.

My personal opinion of the big issue here is that it at times hits a little close to home. In Lyra’s world, the Magisterium and Cosistorial Court persecute people, much as the Catholic church did during the Spanish Inquisition. It is certainly true that while the truth of the Catholic faith has stayed constant throughout the ages, the PEOPLE have at times made incredibly misguided, materialistic, and self-indulgent choices that reflect on the church as a whole. By setting this conflict in an alternate reality, Pullman can make a commentary on the dangers inherent in any organized religion and the possible abuses that can take place without actually attacking the Catholic church by name. It’s more of a warning about what CAN happen than a statement about what IS happening. The main problem the author seems to have with organized religions in the blind following of a set of beliefs without question. In Lyra’s world there is great danger in questioning the church. Perhaps I have just been fortunate, but never in my Catholic upbringing or experience have I been discouraged from asking for reasons for our beliefs and customs. In fact I always was and still am fascinated by the history and “backstory” of our Faith.

As to people who keep calling this a “children’s book” I found it in the Young Adult section, traditionally considered 12 and up. However it has also been marketed in editions for adults (as was Harry Potter) . This book is NOT for children and even for Young Adults I wouldn’t let a teen read this without also reading it as their parent and discussing it with them as there are a lot of parts that are dark, graphic, and just plain scary.

From what I’ve heard the movie isn’t very true to the story in the religious aspects nor the scariness…it seems like the whole thing revolves around the compass itself, when that’s just a tool for Lyra to use to make her journey…the journey itself is about understanding original sin and what the Magisterium and various other parties involved are doing about it.

 

[venusekt]

Although I agree that there are examples of teenagers much more mature then some grownups-my oldest son would be an example-it is true that the brain of teenagers aren’t fully developed yet.

As a teacher, I read a lot about brain research. What stands out for me is that teenagers’ brains are not in the same configuration as adults. Think of the brain as a filing cabinet. Children take information in and simply add it to the drawer with very little organization. As teenagers, we take some time to organize the information. It takes longer to access some of the information because they are working out where they put it. As adults, our information is all filed and we can organize as we go along. Not only that but once we hit 21 our brain starts to deteriorate, so I’m not sure that the undeveloped brain reasoning should be able to discount what a teenager has to say, considering that our brains are sliding down the other end of the development slope.

I’m all for arguing that teens shouldn’t drive because the “disorganization” of their brain processes reduces their ability to make split-second decisions and react in an emergency. I would never, though, suggest that this should make their opinions on literature discountable. Research doesn’t say they can’t think, just that they can’t think fast.

 

[jthiel]

You are absolutely correct about the alternate reality thing. As someone who has just finished re-reading all three books, I can clarify a little. There are two major universes/worlds and many minor ones in the plot. Lyra’s world is the one where the Magisterium (which many read as a direct comparison to our Catholic church) is trying to eradicate original sin. Will’s world is our world and there is very little discussion about the Catholic church at all. One woman trying to help them was formerly a nun, but left the church in a crisis of faith and became a scientist.

My personal opinion of the big issue here is that it at times hits a little close to home. In Lyra’s world, the Magisterium and Cosistorial Court persecute people, much as the Catholic church did during the Spanish Inquisition. It is certainly true that while the truth of the Catholic faith has stayed constant throughout the ages, the PEOPLE have at times made incredibly misguided, materialistic, and self-indulgent choices that reflect on the church as a whole. By setting this conflict in an alternate reality, Pullman can make a commentary on the dangers inherent in any organized religion and the possible abuses that can take place without actually attacking the Catholic church by name. It’s more of a warning about what CAN happen than a statement about what IS happening. The main problem the author seems to have with organized religions in the blind following of a set of beliefs without question. In Lyra’s world there is great danger in questioning the church. Perhaps I have just been fortunate, but never in my Catholic upbringing or experience have I been discouraged from asking for reasons for our beliefs and customs. In fact I always was and still am fascinated by the history and “backstory” of our Faith.

As to people who keep calling this a “children’s book” I found it in the Young Adult section, traditionally considered 12 and up. However it has also been marketed in editions for adults (as was Harry Potter) . This book is NOT for children and even for Young Adults I wouldn’t let a teen read this without also reading it as their parent and discussing it with them as there are a lot of parts that are dark, graphic, and just plain scary.

From what I’ve heard the movie isn’t very true to the story in the religious aspects nor the scariness…it seems like the whole thing revolves around the compass itself, when that’s just a tool for Lyra to use to make her journey…the journey itself is about understanding original sin and what the Magisterium and various other parties involved are doing about it.

I think that about hits the mark with my interpretation of the novels. They do warn against many of the dangers of organized religion and against many of the evils the PEOPLE in the Catholic Church have perpetrated at one time or another, but they don’t necessarily attack the current church or Christianity as a whole, and neither do they deny the existence of a creator.

 

[Greg72]

I think that about hits the mark with my interpretation of the novels. They do warn against many of the dangers of organized religion and against many of the evils the PEOPLE in the Catholic Church have perpetrated at one time or another, but they don’t necessarily attack the current church or Christianity as a whole,

What’s the point of warning about the percieved dangers of organized religion if not to steer people away from the Church?

and neither do they deny the existence of a creator.

Correct. They simply make him out to be a feeble, senile being who brought the world into existance using material apart from himself which any number of other beings could have done.

I don’t know about you, but that’s not the God that I worship and I don’t think that painting a false picture of the creator is harmless fun for the sake of a good story.

 

[Adonis33]

I heard a bit about this on Relevant Radio so I went and got the first one. I’m pretty non-impressed. Supposedly this guy has billed himself as the anti-C.S. Lewis. While I think he meant something else by that statement, if he means he’s the opposite of someone who can write a compelling story - he’s correct.

I finished it last night and have 2 thoughts. 1) - While the whole daemon thing is curious - the story over all just didn’t thrill me. 2) the ‘intercission’ stuff was horrific! It reminded me of Stephen King’s stuff in the Dark Tower series. I wouldn’t let my child read that.

Interesting that there is a ‘Trelawny’ (sp?) in the book. I wonder whose came first?

I’ll probably read the other 2 just to finish the storyline. I hope they get better.

I’m sorry. I just read this and thought the bolded was pretty funny.