Catholic Parish Part of Gay Pride Parade in NYC

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You make good points here.
She makes excellent points. We are not a bunch of children that are told what we should know and what is enough. It reminds me of that joke about why did the chicken cross the road and “Grandpa’s” reply was, “In my day, we didn’t ask why the chicken crossed the road. Someone told us that the chicken crossed the road, and that was good enough for us.”
 
She makes excellent points. We are not a bunch of children that are told what we should know and what is enough. It reminds me of that joke about why did the chicken cross the road and “Grandpa’s” reply was, “In my day, we didn’t ask why the chicken crossed the road. Someone told us that the chicken crossed the road, and that was good enough for us.”
So Happy Father’s Day to the grandpas.
 
I appreciate all the definitions and clarifications you have given here regarding proper terminology, hierarchy, jurisdiction, etc., and I certainly have learned a lot. But the issue is beyond merely the news article. What has come to light here (not from the news article, but from their own webpage, parishioner profiles, ministry promotions, parish Facebook account, etc.) is the apparent heterodoxy of the parish and pastors. One of the spiritual works of mercy is to admonish the sinner. Any Christian has the moral authority to call them to task on this. And that is what is being done here by contacting the priests, certain members of the parish, and the archbishop himself - to raise awareness, gain clarity, offer fraternal correction… whatever.

So regardless of whether this meets the canonical definition of disobedience, all I know is that they seem, by all (of their own) accounts, to be dissidents and disobedient to the catholic and apostolic faith.
I agree with you…without being nitty-gritty about the details,the bottom line is they are not keeping with the teachings and true practice of the church…
 
If I were a member of that parish, I would run from it and never look back, but first the priest would get a good piece of my mind.:mad:
 
So Happy Father’s Day to the grandpas.
Let me explain in greater detail. Any Catholic that is familiar with struggles of practicing their faith has heard of LGBT and these groups are known for legitimizing homosexual behaviour.

When ‘nycatholickat’ explained what this particular group at the parish actually stood for, it was both a relief and a revelation as it showed that not every LGBT group is immoral.

With this bit of news, it eliminates scandal that a Catholic parish may have had attached to it initially. It provides clarity and insight.

Finally Catholicism isn’t a military organization where its members are informed on a need to know basis.
 
Let me explain in greater detail. Any Catholic that is familiar with struggles of practicing their faith has heard of LGBT and these groups are known for legitimizing homosexual behaviour.

When ‘nycatholickat’ explained what this particular group at the parish actually stood for, it was both a relief and a revelation as it showed that not every LGBT group is immoral.

With this bit of news, it eliminates scandal that a Catholic parish may have had attached to it initially. It provides clarity and insight.

Finally Catholicism isn’t a military organization where its members are informed on a need to know basis.
The parishoner testimonials linked upthread appear to tell a different story. So we really have no way of knowing what is going on.
 
No one should listen to any sinful talk about there being laws against correcting sinners. If a Jesuit or any other priest from an order of Pontifical Right says that sodomy is not a sin, then it is morally right and possibly obligatory to correct him. No one has the authority to tell you not to bear witness to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Fraternal correction is under the theological virtue of Charity, which is friendship with God and the highest and most holy virtue. See CCC item #1829.

Being an institute of Pontifical Right means that the order, regardless of geography, is subject to the Holy See rather than the local ordinary. It does not mean you cannot correct a sinner of such an institute. It does mean that no one, not even the local bishop, can order him to do such and such. But tell him to quit misleading his flock and contradicting the Church? Yes, anyone can and probably ought to do so.
No one is saying that you have to accept something that is in conflict with the teachings of the faith. We’re speaking here about laws that the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life has in place. One of them is that no one is allowed to correct a member of a religious institute of pontifical right except his superior. You can complain by writing or calling on the religious superior, but you cannot assume authority over the person. The person has been deliberately excardinated to avoid these problems. Even one member of a religious order may not do so to another member of another religious order. I remember one of oiur friars once took a member of another order to task for something that was in conflict with the Church’s teachings. The next thing we knew we had a court case on our hands. The major superior of the other order filed a formal complaint with the Sacred Congregation. Our friar had to back down and offer a public apology for overstepping the bounds of authority.

What usually happens with the laity is a little different. Most major superiors don’t go as far as bringing a case against the laity in an ecclesial court, probably because most lay men simply do not attend the hearings. I can understand that, because they are very expensive to attend. You have to hire a canon lawyer to represent you. What usually happens is that most major superiors simply ignore it. That’s not a position that I would like to see anyone in. It’s not pleasant to be ignored.

In the case of a bishop, he is usually challenged by the major superior, because his contractual obligation is to report his concern to the major superior and let it drop there. If the issue is not resolved to his satisfaction, the local bishop may suspend the individual from doing ministry on diocesan property, which always includes a parish. Parishes are always diocesan property, never the property of religious orders. But that’s as far as the local bsihop can take it. He cannot correct the individual religious.

Fr. Benedict G. tells of an interesting case, which was very different from this one, but it helps here. There were a group of Franciscans whom the bishop ordered to wear a habit. The Franciscans did as the bishop asked. The major superior was ballistic. He agreed that the friars should wear the habit. But he was ballistic that a bishop had corrected a friar. He took the case to Rome and won. The bishop had to apologize to the superior for overstepping his bounds.

As I said in a previous post, this was the issue with the Legion of Christ. People wanted to correct the Legion, including bishops. The Holy Father would not allow them to do so. He ran interference each and every time. He was not the Holy Father at the time. He was Cardinal Ratzinger. But he wrote several people and told them to back off, because the Legion was a Pontifical Institute. It was not until he decided to hold an Apostolic Visitation that the corrections were made.

There are protocols and proper procedures, even for practicing charity. As I said, one does not have to go to hell in a hand basket because someone else says you should. But one does not have the full freedom to interfere in another person’s household either. If we stop and think about this, Bernard of Clairveaux was right. He was one of the authors of this policy. His idea was to stop the chaos of the time. The monks seemd to be under everyone’s authority: bishop, laity, king, lord, pope and abbot. There were too many chiefs. Francis of Assisi was also opposed to this system of charity and bound the brothers to ignore it all until they heard from their superior, the minister, the bishop or the pope. Francis did write the bishop into his rule, but not every order has the bishop in their chain of command. That’s up to the founder. It lends itself to abuse when you have too many people barking directions at anyone. It confuses especially the younger religious who are more sensitive to corrections. They don’t know to whom they should listen.

Speak with the person privately. If that does not work, speak to his superior. But do not take it upon yourself to act as if you had authority over the person or his ministry. That does not help. It only creates confusion and can backfire. To close I’ll give an example of a religious order of women who walked out on five schools without warning, because of something like this. The bishop was very upset at the laity who caused this to happen. He did not agree with the sisters, but he did not agree with the fact that the laity had put his pastors in such a bind. The sister packed their bags and left during the night. The next day the kids arrived and the schools were locked. That’s an example of where this can backfire and innocent people get caught in the battle. In this case, it was the kids.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
No one is saying that you have to accept something that is in conflict with the teachings of the faith. We’re speaking here about laws that the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life has in place. One of them is that no one is allowed to correct a member of a religious institute of pontifical right except his superior. You can complain by writing or calling on the religious superior, but you cannot assume authority over the person. The person has been deliberately excardinated to avoid these problems. Even one member of a religious order may not do so to another member of another religious order. I remember one of oiur friars once took a member of another order to task for something that was in conflict with the Church’s teachings. The next thing we knew we had a court case on our hands. The major superior of the other order filed a formal complaint with the Sacred Congregation. Our friar had to back down and offer a public apology for overstepping the bounds of authority.

What usually happens with the laity is a little different. Most major superiors don’t go as far as bringing a case against the laity in an ecclesial court, probably because most lay men simply do not attend the hearings. I can understand that, because they are very expensive to attend. You have to hire a canon lawyer to represent you. What usually happens is that most major superiors simply ignore it. That’s not a position that I would like to see anyone in. It’s not pleasant to be ignored.

In the case of a bishop, he is usually challenged by the major superior, because his contractual obligation is to report his concern to the major superior and let it drop there. If the issue is not resolved to his satisfaction, the local bishop may suspend the individual from doing ministry on diocesan property, which always includes a parish. Parishes are always diocesan property, never the property of religious orders. But that’s as far as the local bsihop can take it. He cannot correct the individual religious.

Fr. Benedict G. tells of an interesting case, which was very different from this one, but it helps here. There were a group of Franciscans whom the bishop ordered to wear a habit. The Franciscans did as the bishop asked. The major superior was ballistic. He agreed that the friars should wear the habit. But he was ballistic that a bishop had corrected a friar. He took the case to Rome and won. The bishop had to apologize to the superior for overstepping his bounds.

As I said in a previous post, this was the issue with the Legion of Christ. People wanted to correct the Legion, including bishops. The Holy Father would not allow them to do so. He ran interference each and every time. He was not the Holy Father at the time. He was Cardinal Ratzinger. But he wrote several people and told them to back off, because the Legion was a Pontifical Institute. It was not until he decided to hold an Apostolic Visitation that the corrections were made.

There are protocols and proper procedures, even for practicing charity. As I said, one does not have to go to hell in a hand basket because someone else says you should. But one does not have the full freedom to interfere in another person’s household either. If we stop and think about this, Bernard of Clairveaux was right. He was one of the authors of this policy. His idea was to stop the chaos of the time. The monks seemd to be under everyone’s authority: bishop, laity, king, lord, pope and abbot. There were too many chiefs. Francis of Assisi was also opposed to this system of charity and bound the brothers to ignore it all until they heard from their superior, the minister, the bishop or the pope. Francis did write the bishop into his rule, but not every order has the bishop in their chain of command. That’s up to the founder. It lends itself to abuse when you have too many people barking directions at anyone. It confuses especially the younger religious who are more sensitive to corrections. They don’t know to whom they should listen.

Speak with the person privately. If that does not work, speak to his superior. But do not take it upon yourself to act as if you had authority over the person or his ministry. That does not help. It only creates confusion and can backfire. To close I’ll give an example of a religious order of women who walked out on five schools without warning, because of something like this. The bishop was very upset at the laity who caused this to happen. He did not agree with the sisters, but he did not agree with the fact that the laity had put his pastors in such a bind. The sister packed their bags and left during the night. The next day the kids arrived and the schools were locked. That’s an example of where this can backfire and innocent people get caught in the battle. In this case, it was the kids.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Brother, thanks for your full and well-reasoned explanation.

As an aside, it seems to me that many in the West, especially Americans, feel that it
is their right (and duty) to jump on others - even when they lack any authority to do so.

I’m only guessing that this practice is much worse in the USA;
it seems to go with the territory, so to speak.
Often the words of “correction” are more often given in the ‘nature of assault.’
That’s both sad and unnecessary. It also gives terrible example to others.
 
No one is saying that you have to accept something that is in conflict with the teachings of the faith. We’re speaking here about laws that the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life has in place. One of them is that no one is allowed to correct a member of a religious institute of pontifical right except his superior. You can complain by writing or calling on the religious superior, but you cannot assume authority over the person. The person has been deliberately excardinated to avoid these problems. Even one member of a religious order may not do so to another member of another religious order. I remember one of oiur friars once took a member of another order to task for something that was in conflict with the Church’s teachings. The next thing we knew we had a court case on our hands. The major superior of the other order filed a formal complaint with the Sacred Congregation. Our friar had to back down and offer a public apology for overstepping the bounds of authority.

What usually happens with the laity is a little different. Most major superiors don’t go as far as bringing a case against the laity in an ecclesial court, probably because most lay men simply do not attend the hearings. I can understand that, because they are very expensive to attend. You have to hire a canon lawyer to represent you. What usually happens is that most major superiors simply ignore it. That’s not a position that I would like to see anyone in. It’s not pleasant to be ignored.

In the case of a bishop, he is usually challenged by the major superior, because his contractual obligation is to report his concern to the major superior and let it drop there. If the issue is not resolved to his satisfaction, the local bishop may suspend the individual from doing ministry on diocesan property, which always includes a parish. Parishes are always diocesan property, never the property of religious orders. But that’s as far as the local bsihop can take it. He cannot correct the individual religious.

Fr. Benedict G. tells of an interesting case, which was very different from this one, but it helps here. There were a group of Franciscans whom the bishop ordered to wear a habit. The Franciscans did as the bishop asked. The major superior was ballistic. He agreed that the friars should wear the habit. But he was ballistic that a bishop had corrected a friar. He took the case to Rome and won. The bishop had to apologize to the superior for overstepping his bounds.

As I said in a previous post, this was the issue with the Legion of Christ. People wanted to correct the Legion, including bishops. The Holy Father would not allow them to do so. He ran interference each and every time. He was not the Holy Father at the time. He was Cardinal Ratzinger. But he wrote several people and told them to back off, because the Legion was a Pontifical Institute. It was not until he decided to hold an Apostolic Visitation that the corrections were made.
I don’t think I can respond in a very detailed way with any level of charity. When I read this post, what comes to my mind is that thousands of little children have had their innocence stolen through the rape of their bodies, and thousands if not millions of people have been driven away from the Church or led into grave error by priests who teach heresy and openly rebel against the substance of the Christian religion…

… but if you mouth off to a religious priest, you’re likely to wind up in court.

The mind-blowing enormity of what you have said is beyond my ability to respond in a measured way. I can only hope that you have drastically misrepresented the truth…
 
I don’t think I can respond in a very detailed way with any level of charity. When I read this post, what comes to my mind is that thousands of little children have had their innocence stolen through the rape of their bodies, and thousands if not millions of people have been driven away from the Church or led into grave error by priests who teach heresy and openly rebel against the substance of the Christian religion…

… but if you mouth off to a religious priest, you’re likely to wind up in court.

The mind-blowing enormity of what you have said is beyond my ability to respond in a measured way. I can only hope that you have drastically misrepresented the truth…
Please read some of the other posts in this thread before jumping to conclusions. Its about Church hierarchy, not personal opinion.
 
Please read some of the other posts in this thread before jumping to conclusions. Its about Church hierarchy, not personal opinion.
Your claim is unreasonable. I have read them. In some cases, multiple times.
 
Please read some of the other posts in this thread before jumping to conclusions. Its about Church hierarchy, not personal opinion.
I like the way that you expressed this. It is succinct and accurate. There is a hierarchy of authority that we must all follow. No one need go to hell in a hand-basket because an other says so. But there are rules in the Church that we must follow in order to avoid abuses and chaos.

If my Dominican brothers says something horrible or does something horrible, I can speak to him privately. I have no authority over him. To assume any authority over him can cause very serious legal trouble.

What happens when you assume such authority is that you violate someone else’s rights. You’re not violating the rights of the person who is doing wrong. You are violating the rights of the person who has the authority to solve the problem. In plain English, you’re going over someone’s head. If the person feels offended, he can turn on you. At best you will be ignored an at worse, you may find yourself at the blunt end of an ecclesial judge. When the person in authority to correct feels that his right has been violated, this becomes the issue and the other problem does not get resolved. We must never forget that we’re dealing with human beings in a very human system.

We have a duty to correct those who are in error. But we must use the systems that the Church puts in place for that purpose. Those systems have a reason for being there.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I don’t think I can respond in a very detailed way with any level of charity. When I read this post, what comes to my mind is that thousands of little children have had their innocence stolen through the rape of their bodies, and thousands if not millions of people have been driven away from the Church or led into grave error by priests who teach heresy and openly rebel against the substance of the Christian religion…

… but if you mouth off to a religious priest, you’re likely to wind up in court.

The mind-blowing enormity of what you have said is beyond my ability to respond in a measured way. I can only hope that you have drastically misrepresented the truth…
I have got to say I am not far behind you. In my whole life as a Catholic, there hasn’t been anything that has shaken my faith as much as this. Mind-blowing pretty much sums it up. The Archbishop is prevented from doing anything to protect his flock from being led into error and sin just because the pastor supporting the error happens to be a religious rather than a secular priest.

We really need to pray for our Bishops.
 
As I said in a previous post, this was the issue with the Legion of Christ. People wanted to correct the Legion, including bishops. The Holy Father would not allow them to do so. He ran interference each and every time. He was not the Holy Father at the time. He was Cardinal Ratzinger. But he wrote several people and told them to back off, because the Legion was a Pontifical Institute. It was not until he decided to hold an Apostolic Visitation that the corrections were made.
I’m trying to understand something here perhaps you can enlighten me. Under the vow of obedience for all those in a religious order, if the superior of that order instructs the order to accept a teaching or a practice that is diametrically opposed to the dogma and teachings of the Church, can they disobey their superior then, and only obey the magisterium of the Church? Do they have a choice?

In Him,
 
I have got to say I am not far behind you. In my whole life as a Catholic, there hasn’t been anything that has shaken my faith as much as this. Mind-blowing pretty much sums it up. The Archbishop is prevented from doing anything to protect his flock from being led into error and sin just because the pastor supporting the error happens to be a religious rather than a secular priest.

We really need to pray for our Bishops. And I will also pray that these religious orders are eventually driven from any contact with parishioners.
Try and look at it like the laws we have in our country. There are local, state, and federal laws that can only be enforced by apporopriate agencies.
 
I’m trying to understand something here perhaps you can enlighten me. Under the vow of obedience for all those in a religious order, if the superior of that order instructs the order to accept a teaching or a practice that is diametrically opposed to the dogma and teachings of the Church, can they disobey their superior then, and only obey the magisterium of the Church? Do they have a choice?

In Him,
No superior can ever order you to sin. Therefore, it is not disobedience to refuse to comply.

In addition, even if it’s not a sin, a religious superior cannot order you to do something that is in conflict with the rule, constitutions of the order or the founder. There is a hierarchy of authority. Founder, rule, constitutions and superior.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I have got to say I am not far behind you. In my whole life as a Catholic, there hasn’t been anything that has shaken my faith as much as this. Mind-blowing pretty much sums it up. The Archbishop is prevented from doing anything to protect his flock from being led into error and sin just because the pastor supporting the error happens to be a religious rather than a secular priest.

We really need to pray for our Bishops. And I will also pray that these religious orders are eventually driven from any contact with parishioners.
Then you would have to pray that all religious orders are driven away from contact with the laity. In that case, you wuold be praying for something that is contrary to the will of the Holy Spirit. Religious orders are a gift from the Holy Spirit to the Church.

The fact that an individual religiuos does something wrong, does not condemn an entire order or congregation. The issue is with that individual or even a group of members, but not an entire order or congregation. The Legion of Christ is an excellent example. As a whole, they are a very orthodox religious community. But there were many individuals involved in some very serious behaviors. However, the Holy Father and the Apostolic Visitors did not disband the congregation. They simply removed the elements that were the cause of the problems.

As Father has said, think if it as you would any other government of a large nation. The Church is a very large nation, if you will. To have order and to avoid abuse of power, this hierarchies and restrictions have been put into place. There was a time when laity and bishops governed religious. They exploited them and used them for their purposes. This is why very holy men such as St. Bernard, St. Francis, and St. Dominic appealed to Pope Honorius to take them under his care. Whenever religious refused to comply with bishops they were accused of being heretics. When they refused to comply with the laity they were accused of being traitors. Worse yet, when bishops and secular monarches were in conflicts, they drew the religious into their conflicts, because the monks had property. Therefore, the monks had money, even though they lived very poorly. Nonetheless, they had assets that the bishop or the king could use for his personal agenda. The monks were defenseless against their abuses, because they immediately invoked the vow of obedience and the monks had to yield.

To avoid all of this it was made law that the hierarchy of obedience for a religious, from the top down goes like this: pope, founder, the rule, the constitutions, the superior general, the other brothers when these vote in a chapter. As you can see, bishops and laity are out of the chain of command. This allowed the religious orders to grow and do their work in peace. The Church saw that this as good and has kept this hierarchy of government in place to this day.

This is not something that should shatter anyone’s faith. Think of it as Father said, like the different layers of government, where each layer has its rights and its limits. A bishop has authority over the laity and the secular clergy in his diocese. The religious are not under his jurisdiction. They simply work for him. He can ask them to leave a parish or leave another diocesan ministry. But he cannot ask them to leave his diocese. Canon law forbids this. This is called disbanding. No bishop has the authority to disband a religious order or a secular order either. Once the bishop grants a religous order or a secular order permission to enter his diocese, he cannot ask them to leave his diocese. Only the Holy Father can do that. They become canonically erected in the diocese. This means that they have a canonical right to be there, granted to them by the proper authority. But in the bishop’s authority there is no provision for dismissing religious from his diocese.

In addition, if the religious is a deacon, priest or bishop, the diocesan bishop can suspend his faculties. But the suspension is only applicable on diocesan property. For example, the whole issue with Fr. Jenkins at Notre Dame. Fr. Jenkins is a member of a religious congregation of brothers that has Pontifical Rights. This means that the Brothers of the Holy Cross are protected by the power of the Pontiff. No bishop or lay person can go over the Pontif’s head. Therefore, no bishop or lay person can lawfully correct a member of a Pontifical institute.

The entire conference of bishops were uncharitably accused of being weak, because they did not take Fr. Jenkins or the Brothers of the Holy Cross out to hang. The truth is that the Brothers of the Holy Cross are protected by the pope. The bisohps can be critical, but they have to be careful not to overstep their bounds. If they do, then they run the risk of running into the pope’s area of authority. When the Vatican did not react to the ND situation, the bishops were paralized. They are not high enough on the chain of command to take on the Brothers of the Holy Cross. Only the Vatican can do that.

To correct with justice means not to step on someone’s toes. To take on the duty that belongs to someone else in the name of charity is not charity, because justice is being violated. The religious superior has rights and those rights cannot be trampled on. The rights of the faithful are protected by the bishop using the means allowed by law.

We’re dealing here with different layers of government and different duties for different people. Thank God, you never have a sitatuation where an entire religious order is out of compliance.

I hope this helps put things into a better perspective.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I hope this helps put things into a better perspective.
To me it shows how pedophiles steal our children’s innocence, sodomites steal our money, Communists steal our babies’ lives and heretics steal our faith, and then hide behind their lawyers and their fancy rules.

Thankfully, I know many true and good priests, who actually believe in Jesus Christ and appear to seriously attempt to do what He wants them to do. Truly it is not the Church’s fault, nor anything to do with the priesthood itself, and no one should reject the Church for the sins of a few. But I do hold at fault certain lawyerly and Pharisaical attitudes that in my estimation have little or nothing to do with living in the service of Lord Jesus Christ our God.

When Lord Jesus threw the money changers out of the Temple, He was breaking some rules. Wicked, cynical rules unworthy of the Temple.

The Church is quite possibly in its deepest crisis since Arianism. Clerics teach from the pulpit that Christ’s miracles are fabrications. Sackfuls of people’s hard-earned money are being wasted on abuse settlements. Children are being raped! And who is there who will dare to attempt to deliver us from all of this?

Where is the man who makes the lame walk and casts out demons? Where is the man who disappears down the lion’s throat rather than suffer unrighteous words? May it please the Lord to send shepherds to His children who are being tormented?

@Corki:

Do not let the ways of religious orders destroy your faith, my friend. Your faith comes from Jesus Christ and ties you back to Him. Remain in His Church, receive His Sacraments frequently, and pray for good priests, men who hold the lions in contempt.
 
There is a hierarchy of authority. Founder, rule, constitutions and superior.
Where does God fit into this hierarchy?

After reading this thread I now wonder if these Orders are too autonomous and unique. What’s wrong with "One Holy Catholic Apostolic? being the norm instead of all the variances?

The Jesuits have been adrift from the Mother Church for some time now. If their superiors can’t bring about order then perhaps it is time to cut them off.
 
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