Catholic Parish Part of Gay Pride Parade in NYC

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Yes, it’s pretty clear what is going on here. The Rainbow Flags, the participation in the “PRIDE” march (which means, the march is for people who are proud of their practice of sodomy), the pastor pumping the LGBT group in his statement*, the testimonials of practicing sodomites already linked upthread.

This parish is very obviously a place where people who unrepentantly practice sodomy go and commit sacrilege against our Lord’s Most Precious Body and Blood.

Unless some documentation can be produced to show that all the Gay, Lesbian Etc. groups at this parish actively teach that sodomy is a mortal sin and can send people to Hell, then the prima facie case is very strong that this is a heretical parish involved in rank treason against the Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
    • “We further included in that bulletin an invitation to all parishioners to participate in our LGBT ministries’ and Peace & Justice Committee’s evangelizing efforts at the 40th Annual LGBT Pride March the following weekend.”
 
I listened to it… you know I’m such a newbie that I didn’t know what "apostasy’ was till I listened to this.
I totally bookmarked that site btw 🙂
yes, and it is good to know that we still have Catholics who uphold the Truth. in the Truth we find confort and it is our way out of confusion. i hold these teachings. i love them and treasure them. they are the ones i listen to.

at times like these where confusion seems to reign among so many Catholics, it is conforting to hear that in the Catholic Church we can still find those who are clear and able to teach the Truth. Thanks be to God.
 
Who can expect the flock to prosper when its shepherd has sunk so deep into the bowels of the devil?


“Without fail, [the vice of sodomy] brings death to the body and destruction to the soul. It pollutes the flesh, extinguishes the light of the mind, expels the Holy Spirit from the temple of the human heart, and gives entrance to the devil, the stimulator of lust.”

”[The vice of sodomy] leads to error, totally removes truth from the deluded mind . . . It opens up Hell and closes the gates of Paradise.”

-Saint Peter Damien

.
i got nothing to say to this parish. unless the people are completely imcapable of understanding and diferenciate between good and evil, i got nothing to say to them.
 
Yes, it’s pretty clear what is going on here. The Rainbow Flags, the participation in the “PRIDE” march (which means, the march is for people who are proud of their practice of sodomy), the pastor pumping the LGBT group in his statement*, the testimonials of practicing sodomites already linked upthread.

This parish is very obviously a place where people who unrepentantly practice sodomy go and commit sacrilege against our Lord’s Most Precious Body and Blood.

Unless some documentation can be produced to show that all the Gay, Lesbian Etc. groups at this parish actively teach that sodomy is a mortal sin and can send people to Hell, then the prima facie case is very strong that this is a heretical parish involved in rank treason against the Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
    • “We further included in that bulletin an invitation to all parishioners to participate in our LGBT ministries’ and Peace & Justice Committee’s evangelizing efforts at the 40th Annual LGBT Pride March the following weekend.”
and i just wonder how much more shame and humiliation can the Bishops take.
great video.

youtube.com/user/RealCatholicTV#p/a/u/0/IZ0BmNECiT0
 
i got nothing to say to this parish. unless the people are completely imcapable of understanding and diferenciate between good and evil, i got nothing to say to them.
i think it was Pope Leo XII who had that experience w/ the devil… and the devil said that if jesus gave him 75 years… (100?) he would destroy the Church… He was allowed to try…

it seems to me … from what i’ve heard… the 75 years or so started around 1950 or thereabouts…

i have no trouble believing any of that…
 
i think it was Pope Leo XII who had that experience w/ the devil… and the devil said that if jesus gave him 75 years… (100?) he would destroy the Church… He was allowed to try…

it seems to me … from what i’ve heard… the 75 years or so started around 1950 or thereabouts…

i have no trouble believing any of that…
i believe that the devil is trying it. but like Job, it will return to life again. God still in charge of his Church. we still have some good faiftfull Catholics who are Traditional and are suffering because they are holding on to the Faith. the Traditional Catholics, they are the only ones i listen to. they have clear teachings and they have no problem in teaching them. all we gotta do is listen to them. this whole ecumenical thing is destroying our Faith and no one is stopping it. falsehood is spreading like fire all over the world and our Religion, the True Faith is undermined and the only ones left to defend our Faith are the Traditional Catholics and their voices are hardly heard, instead we are instructed to listen to protestants and their falsehoods.
 
obedience is obsolete… dontcha know… :rolleyes:
Do we know for a fact that there is disobedience here? From the article all I get is that the Archbishop wrote a letter saying that he did not want them to attend the march under the parish’s name. If this wording is accurate, then there is no disobedience. Church law is very specific. For there to be disobedience there has to be a canonical order or mandate given by the Ordinary. He must give it directly to the people, not to the religious, because he has no jurisdiction over the religious.

If the bishop sends a letter to the pastor and says that he forbids the laity from participating in the march under the name of the parish, then there is disobedience. If he writes a letter saying that he does not want this to happen, there is no disobedience, because the wording is not what the Church requires in a canonical prohibition. You must explicitly tell someone that they are forbidden or that they may not do X. If you say that you dont’ like the idea or that you don’t want it to happen, Church law says that this is a commentary and not a mandate.

In addition, do we know the follow-up? We know that the parish published an announcement. Was this announcement before or after the Archbishop’s letter? Did the Archbishop respond to the announcement? If he does not respond to the announcement, they are canonically free to proceed. He has left the door open. If he responds to the announcement with a prohibition and they proceed, then there can be consequences imposed on the laity.

It just seems to me that we cannot draw any conclusions without the rest of the information. I would bet that there is not going to be more information coming out, because bishops don’t put this stuff out there in public. Unless someone who is in contact with the Archbishop tells us the rest of the story, we will never know. The rule of the Church is that this information is only released on a need to know basis. Since the rest of us do not have the need to know the content of the dialogue between the Archbishop and the laity in that parish, he is not about to tell us. We have to wait for them to say something.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
While I was in chapel tonight I thought to myself that we must always proceed very gently to arrive at a just and merciful conclusion in this case. In cases involving obedience, we must apply the rules of moral theology regarding obedience.
  1. Does the person giving the order have the jurisdiction to do so?
In this case, the bishop has absolute authority over the laity in his diocese and limited authority over the religious in his diocese. His authority over the religious is limited to matters concerning the work that they do for him. He also has limited authority over the diocesan priests who are in his diocese, because diocesan priests are not consecrated men. They are secular men who do not make a vow of obedience. They only promise to obey the bishop’s wishes concerning the ministry, not their personal activities. Only a religious superior has absolute authority over his subjects.
  1. Is the matter grave?
In this case it is, because it involves a moral law of the Church and the bishop has the duty to govern the faithful in all moral issues, whether they like it or not. Bishops do not govern by the consent of the governed, but by divine right. That right is legitimately exercised when the bishop invokes moral law.
  1. Was there an order given?
The information in this article is unclear as to whether this was an order or a concern that the bishop expressed in his letter to the pastor. The wording of the article can suggest both. But to have a valid order, it must be clear that it’s an order. If there is no clarity, the receiver has the right to act according to his understanding. We just don’t know the exact words of the letter, because the letter has not been published.
  1. Does the recipient understand the order?
Again, the article does not say. It simply says that the letter was sent to the pastor. Do the organizers of the activity understand or what do they understand, other than the fact that the bishop does not want them to use the parish name at this march. But do they understand this to be an order or the bishop’s preference? We don’t know what the bishop may have said to them in private that has not been shared with the public.
  1. To whom was the order directed?
If the letter is sent to the pastor, it is clear that the bishop wants the pastor to know his mind on the issue. Did the pastor share this information with the organizers in a way that they understood the message? We don’t know this. Just as we don’t know what the bishop may have told the pastor to do.
  1. Is this a parish ministry or a ministry of the religious order?
If this is a ministry of the religious order, the bishop has the right to ask them not to use the name of the parish. But he does not have the authority to forbid the activity. The Jesuit Provincial has authority over those ministries that are proper to his order, not the bishop. The bishop can forbid the ministry in his parish or the use of his parish’s name. He cannot dictate the ministries in which the Jesuits engage, even in his diocese. That would constitute a violation of the rights of the Provincial Superior and the autonomy that is proper to religious. A good example of this is the Sister who excommunicated herself for allowing an abortion. The bishop did not interfere with her. He stated the law. He did not try to penalize her. He can’t do that to a consecrated religious. That can end a bishop in court.

The religious life is exempt from interference from the Church’s hierarchy and the laity. Religious answer only to their superiors and those superiors answer to the Holy Father. Any attempt on the part of a bishop or a lay person to dictate to a religious is interpreted as an affront to the authority of a religious superior and an affront to the autonomy of consecrated religious, which is protected by several councils and papal decrees.

We don’t know if this is a Jesuit ministry or a parish ministry. What we do know is that prudence would suggest that it be made clear to the faithful, which ministry is proper to the parish and which is proper to the religious order that runs the parish. There are situations in which religious orders and bishops have agreed that the religious will run a parish for a bishop only if the faithful are bound to support the ministry and spirituality of the order. If the bishop agrees to this, then the faithful of that parish are bound to do so either actively (direct involvement) or passively (non interference).

There are too many questions here to make a fair and informed judgment. That’s why I never try to make a judgment unless I have spoken to the persons involved or have read exactly what was written. I limit myself to reviewing the rules. We want to teach truth. But we also want to be fair. I hope that this helps someone who may be a little confused about this case.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
While I was in chapel tonight I thought to myself that we must always proceed very gently to arrive at a just and merciful conclusion in this case. In cases involving obedience, we must apply the rules of moral theology regarding obedience.
I appreciate all the definitions and clarifications you have given here regarding proper terminology, hierarchy, jurisdiction, etc., and I certainly have learned a lot. But the issue is beyond merely the news article. What has come to light here (not from the news article, but from their own webpage, parishioner profiles, ministry promotions, parish Facebook account, etc.) is the apparent heterodoxy of the parish and pastors. One of the spiritual works of mercy is to admonish the sinner. Any Christian has the moral authority to call them to task on this. And that is what is being done here by contacting the priests, certain members of the parish, and the archbishop himself - to raise awareness, gain clarity, offer fraternal correction… whatever.

So regardless of whether this meets the canonical definition of disobedience, all I know is that they seem, by all (of their own) accounts, to be dissidents and disobedient to the catholic and apostolic faith.
 
I appreciate all the definitions and clarifications you have given here regarding proper terminology, hierarchy, jurisdiction, etc., and I certainly have learned a lot. But the issue is beyond merely the news article. What has come to light here (not from the news article, but from their own webpage, parishioner profiles, ministry promotions, parish Facebook account, etc.) is the apparent heterodoxy of the parish and pastors. One of the spiritual works of mercy is to admonish the sinner. Any Christian has the moral authority to call them to task on this. And that is what is being done here by contacting the priests, certain members of the parish, and the archbishop himself - to raise awareness, gain clarity, offer fraternal correction… whatever.

So regardless of whether this meets the canonical definition of disobedience, all I know is that they seem, by all (of their own) accounts, to be dissidents and disobedient to the catholic and apostolic faith.
If they are saying that sexual actity outside of the proper context of marriage between one man and one woman is acceptable, then they certainly are in conflict with moral revelation.

If they are saying that all people are welcome in their parish, gay and straight alike, but are not explicitly condoning sexual activity, then they are not in conflict with moral revelation. Thet are, however, on a very slippery slope. Their statement can easily be interpreted to mean more than they may want to say. For this reason it is very important that one observe what one says, how one says it, where and when one says it. If they want to be welcoming, this march may not be the place to do it, because it can be read as saying more than just “welcome.”

As to fraternal correction, I could not agree more. Again, we must be careful not to step on slippery slopes. This parish is run by an exempt religious order. Exempt means that the laity and the bishop have no right to correct them. Only their superior has that right. We always have to be very careful when correcting to ensure that we have a right to correct. The Vatican is very protective of exempt religious orders. This has been a law within the Church since the 13th century. There was a very good reason for creating it. It was meant to protect religious from what often appeared to be too many superiors over them. Thus Pope Innocent III ruled that no one except a pope had the authority to correct a monk, a friar, a clerk regular, a nun or a canon. This decision has never been changed. Canon law says that any rule or practice regarding religious life that is over 100 years old must be allowed to continue without interruption. This rule is over 800 years old.

I understand the desire to do an act of charity. But we must make sure that we are doing the act of charity without breaking the law. If the law of the Church is that we do not have that right, then we must bite our tongues.

There are many times when I have seen other religious orders do things that to me seem outrageous. But I cannot say anything to any of their members, because they belong to exempt religious orders. I’m only allowed to offer fraternal correction to the members of my own order, the laity, secular deacons and priests (never a bishop, even if he’s secular), or members of non-exempt religious institutes. Non-exempt religious institutes are very few. The papacy has made it a point to make them all exempt as soon as they reach a certain stage in their development.

This is why they are called Institutes of Pontifical Right. This term means that only the Pontiff can correct or critique them, outside of their own members. Even religious from another Institute of Pontifical Right cannot do it. In other words, Pontifical Right means that a religious order or congregation can do whatever it wants as long as it is given the right to do so why the Pontiff. If there is a doubt, the benefit must always be given to the order until the Pontiff or his delegate speak on the matter.

This was the issue with the Legion of Christ. No one could touch them, because they are a Pontifical Institute. They are exempt from correction by anyone who is not the pope. It took an apostolic visitation ordered by the pope to correct their problems. Lay people and bishops had complained about many things concerning certain members of the Legion. The Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life became so angry at these folks that it threatened them. The Congregation for Religious felt that the laity and the bishops were trying to tell the Legion what to do and trying to correct them and guide them, when they have not right to do so. The only right that the laity and bishops have is to report to the Sacred Congregation and let them deal with it if and when the pope says to do so, which did happen.

I as a Franciscan cannot correct a Jesuit. Jesuits are exempt from all corrections by anyone except their superior and the pope. Anyone who attempts to correct them is on a very slippery slope, because it can be considered a sin of arrogance, unless the person does not know the rule. The only thing that you and I can do with regards to anything that we see out of place with the Jesuits is to report it to Church authorities who will then make sure that the report reaches the person who can do something about it.

Let’s be concerned and loving toward others and try to help them do the right thing. But let’s also remember that we have a place that has been assigned to us by the Church and that we cannot step out of that without the danger of doing something wrong ourselves. Then you have two people doing something wrong. That doesn’t help anyone.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
No one should listen to any sinful talk about there being laws against correcting sinners. If a Jesuit or any other priest from an order of Pontifical Right says that sodomy is not a sin, then it is morally right and possibly obligatory to correct him. No one has the authority to tell you not to bear witness to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Fraternal correction is under the theological virtue of Charity, which is friendship with God and the highest and most holy virtue. See CCC item #1829.

Being an institute of Pontifical Right means that the order, regardless of geography, is subject to the Holy See rather than the local ordinary. It does not mean you cannot correct a sinner of such an institute. It does mean that no one, not even the local bishop, can order him to do such and such. But tell him to quit misleading his flock and contradicting the Church? Yes, anyone can and probably ought to do so.
 
Regardless of who the immediate superior is to this parish every Catholic has a right to be outraged and protest what’s going on there. They may be Catholic in name only but they are still using our name to promote anti-Church teachings.
 
Hi all,

Just a word- tonight was our parish’s rededication Mass. Archbishop Dolan and Cardinal Egan were there. During one part of the Mass, the parish staff presented all the parish ministries. They presented the LGBT ministry, stating our true purpose: to make a home for persons who are homosexual to return to the Church and the Sacraments, complete with the morals inherent in being part of the Church. The Archbishop stood and applauded and gave a thumbs-up. I think part of this story’s dissemination about our parish’s “defiance” of the archbishop has been overblown. Also, the parish has come out to say they WILL NOT march under the church banner at the parade, per the Archbishop’s request. They are following the Archbishop’s wishes. People are welcome to march independently, but not under a parish name or banner.

I hope this helps clarify some things.
 
Hi all,

Just a word- tonight was our parish’s rededication Mass. Archbishop Dolan and Cardinal Egan were there. During one part of the Mass, the parish staff presented all the parish ministries. They presented the LGBT ministry, stating our true purpose: to make a home for persons who are homosexual to return to the Church and the Sacraments, complete with the morals inherent in being part of the Church. The Archbishop stood and applauded and gave a thumbs-up. I think part of this story’s dissemination about our parish’s “defiance” of the archbishop has been overblown.
Also, the parish has come out to say they WILL NOT march under the church banner at the parade, per the Archbishop’s request. They are following the Archbishop’s wishes. People are welcome to march independently, but not under a parish name or banner.

I hope this helps clarify some things.
Lovely that all came together in a peaceful celebration of the Mass,
but bolded-above is the only thing that was necessary.
 
If the Parade promotes homosexual acts, or if the Parade promotes gay marriage, - - - it would be sinful to participate in any way.

Just like participating in a pro-abortion rally.

(The legal name of the Church belongs to the Diocese, and no one has the authority to use the name of the Church without Diocese permission.)
 
If they are saying that sexual actity outside of the proper context of marriage between one man and one woman is acceptable, then they certainly are in conflict with moral revelation.

If they are saying that all people are welcome in their parish, gay and straight alike, but are not explicitly condoning sexual activity, then they are not in conflict with moral revelation. Thet are, however, on a very slippery slope. Their statement can easily be interpreted to mean more than they may want to say. For this reason it is very important that one observe what one says, how one says it, where and when one says it. If they want to be welcoming, this march may not be the place to do it, because it can be read as saying more than just “welcome.”

As to fraternal correction, I could not agree more. Again, we must be careful not to step on slippery slopes. This parish is run by an exempt religious order. Exempt means that the laity and the bishop have no right to correct them. Only their superior has that right. We always have to be very careful when correcting to ensure that we have a right to correct. The Vatican is very protective of exempt religious orders. This has been a law within the Church since the 13th century. There was a very good reason for creating it. It was meant to protect religious from what often appeared to be too many superiors over them. Thus Pope Innocent III ruled that no one except a pope had the authority to correct a monk, a friar, a clerk regular, a nun or a canon. This decision has never been changed. Canon law says that any rule or practice regarding religious life that is over 100 years old must be allowed to continue without interruption. This rule is over 800 years old.

I understand the desire to do an act of charity. But we must make sure that we are doing the act of charity without breaking the law. If the law of the Church is that we do not have that right, then we must bite our tongues.

There are many times when I have seen other religious orders do things that to me seem outrageous. But I cannot say anything to any of their members, because they belong to exempt religious orders. I’m only allowed to offer fraternal correction to the members of my own order, the laity, secular deacons and priests (never a bishop, even if he’s secular), or members of non-exempt religious institutes. Non-exempt religious institutes are very few. The papacy has made it a point to make them all exempt as soon as they reach a certain stage in their development.

This is why they are called Institutes of Pontifical Right. This term means that only the Pontiff can correct or critique them, outside of their own members. Even religious from another Institute of Pontifical Right cannot do it. In other words, Pontifical Right means that a religious order or congregation can do whatever it wants as long as it is given the right to do so why the Pontiff. If there is a doubt, the benefit must always be given to the order until the Pontiff or his delegate speak on the matter.

This was the issue with the Legion of Christ. No one could touch them, because they are a Pontifical Institute. They are exempt from correction by anyone who is not the pope. It took an apostolic visitation ordered by the pope to correct their problems. Lay people and bishops had complained about many things concerning certain members of the Legion. The Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life became so angry at these folks that it threatened them. The Congregation for Religious felt that the laity and the bishops were trying to tell the Legion what to do and trying to correct them and guide them, when they have not right to do so. The only right that the laity and bishops have is to report to the Sacred Congregation and let them deal with it if and when the pope says to do so, which did happen.

I as a Franciscan cannot correct a Jesuit. Jesuits are exempt from all corrections by anyone except their superior and the pope. Anyone who attempts to correct them is on a very slippery slope, because it can be considered a sin of arrogance, unless the person does not know the rule. The only thing that you and I can do with regards to anything that we see out of place with the Jesuits is to report it to Church authorities who will then make sure that the report reaches the person who can do something about it.

Let’s be concerned and loving toward others and try to help them do the right thing. But let’s also remember that we have a place that has been assigned to us by the Church and that we cannot step out of that without the danger of doing something wrong ourselves. Then you have two people doing something wrong. That doesn’t help anyone.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Thank you, Brother.
You’ve given a very clear explanation.
 
Hi all,

Just a word- tonight was our parish’s rededication Mass. Archbishop Dolan and Cardinal Egan were there. During one part of the Mass, the parish staff presented all the parish ministries. They presented the LGBT ministry, stating our true purpose: to make a home for persons who are homosexual to return to the Church and the Sacraments, complete with the morals inherent in being part of the Church. The Archbishop stood and applauded and gave a thumbs-up. I think part of this story’s dissemination about our parish’s “defiance” of the archbishop has been overblown. ***Also, the parish has come out to say they WILL NOT march under the church banner at the parade, per the Archbishop’s request. *** They are following the Archbishop’s wishes. People are welcome to march independently, but not under a parish name or banner.

I hope this helps clarify some things.
Actually, both bolds were necessary. The biggest problem of these so-labeled ministries is the confusion caused in the parishes. I see it in the parishes; I see it on CAF. So, in addition to the appropriate announcements that were made, I think every non-self-evident ministry should be defined in the parish bulletin as permanent text. Thereby no one is confused. Thus, common knowledge understands that Alcoholics Anonymous does not promote Alcoholism (and many parishes include meeting times for parish AA members); but if there were an Adulterers’ group – unless there were Anonymous after the title – it could potentially be just as confusing as an “LGBT” group. And the reason for that confusion is that outside of a parish, most LGBT groups do exist as advocacy groups, which includes tolerance/acceptance of the lifestyle, not just of civil rights, humane treatment, etc. It’s important for a parish to draw the distinction at least indirectly.

And I will say that in the many parishes I have visited and still visit, the boxed quote represents the very first time I have ever, ever read an LGBT ministry defined at all, let alone that way. No, it is not self-evident what that “ministry” is, unless explained. Particularly when members or leaders of such ministries come to Mass with their announced “partners,” when they offer public prayer intentions which are ambiguous and aggresive in their ‘demand’ for ‘inclusion,’ etc. But I think everyone understands (or should!) a support group, an affirmation group, and any such group should feel and be welcomed!

I agree with almost every point that JR makes, and it’s been my own position for some time. I’m only not worried that “we” need to walk on eggshells and “be very careful.” Members of religious orders are big boys and girls. An inquiry is not an interrogation. When a public Mass is held in a parish outside of the defined grounds of the religious order, laity still have a right merely to have clarification. That is different than correction. As members of a religious order which bears the title Catholic, an Order on its own has a responsibility to initiate clarification, actually, and to prevent confusion, scandal, etc. If they don’t or won’t, I think that an ordinary lay person is not out of bounds to ask directly from the members of that Order, for clarification. If I were to ask and ascertain that the answer was one providing scandal, or was in some way heterodox, I would merely choose a different parish. I wouldn’t waste time trying to ‘correct’ a religious Order, as I’m very clear on where the lines of authority are.
 
This same parish holds Zen meditation and wants to dissent even further… :rolleyes:

This is the Facebook page of St. Francis Xavier parish where it states “all are welcome” and you see a rainbow carpet on the altar steps. God help us!
Maybe He is trying to help these gays. Which church states that gays are NOT welcome?
 
Actually, both bolds were necessary. The biggest problem of these so-labeled ministries is the confusion caused in the parishes. I see it in the parishes; I see it on CAF. So, in addition to the appropriate announcements that were made, I think every non-self-evident ministry should be defined in the parish bulletin as permanent text. Thereby no one is confused. Thus, common knowledge understands that Alcoholics Anonymous does not promote Alcoholism (and many parishes include meeting times for parish AA members); but if there were an Adulterers’ group – unless there were Anonymous after the title – it could potentially be just as confusing as an “LGBT” group. And the reason for that confusion is that outside of a parish, most LGBT groups do exist as advocacy groups, which includes tolerance/acceptance of the lifestyle, not just of civil rights, humane treatment, etc. It’s important for a parish to draw the distinction at least indirectly…
You make good points here.
 
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