Catholic shift gives Democrats big boost

[dmelosi]

I notice a lot of single issue voters here. Enactment of their agenda demands a viable and well functioning government that can ensure the social, economic, and security environment necessary to uniformly implement that agenda. That same environment is necessary for the other issues termed non-negotiable.

Therefore, even for the single issue voter, one can make a good case that it is more important to vote to promote such an environment, since without it nobody’s agenda can be met.

You say single issue voter…but I tend to believe people who study the faith and believe that abortion is murder. I find it hard to believe those that sell their soul for power. I firmly believe that any politican who is Catholic and promotes pro choice, probably does think that abortion is killing, yet overlook it for power. My conclusion, how can you believe such a politician in anything. To me, those that do so are less credible, so I believe more of the other issues.

You overlook that abortion is murder.

I research most of the other issues and can argue with well researched back up. The point here is that democrats are mostly pro murder and republicans are mostly pro life.

If you cut to the chase on what abortion is, I don’t know how you can come to any other conclusion.

 

[Richardols]

What you conveniently fail to mention is that Andy Mayberry was endorsed by The Arkansas Right to Life and the Republican National Coalition for Life.

Why did you say “conveniently fail to mention”? You asked me simply whom I voted for. What made you think that I was obliged to tell you the names of every candidate here, including the Libertarian and the Green?

I knew who Mayberry was, but he is a total unknown, and he supported Bush’s policies down the line. I and most Americans could no longer support the Administration for a variety of reasons, the war in particular as mine, and so voted against the GOP.

 

[Richardols]

Exactly. It is the inability of everyone to agree that abortion is murder that is the heart of the problem. There are actions that we have arrived at a legal concensus on, but the action of abortion as murder is not one of them.

People who believe that abortion is murder should absolutely work to convince their fellow citizens that they are right. They must also advocate for the legal punishment of women who have abortions and anyone facilitating abortions. They must advocate for the legal punishment of these people regardless of circumstances such as rape and life of the mother. And they must vote accordingly.

If pro-lifers were to be consistent in their belief, they would want the women punished as much as they’d want the abortionist to be punished. Suppose a woman asked a physician prescribe a poison to kill her one-year-old because the child was the product of her having been raped. Does anyone actually think that she should go free in that instance and only the actual killer to go to jail? Yet, most pro-lifers would give the woman a pass if it were an abortion. Where’s the consistency?

 

[dmelosi]

Why did you say “conveniently fail to mention”? You asked me simply whom I voted for. What made you think that I was obliged to tell you the names of every candidate here, including the Libertarian and the Green?

I knew who Mayberry was, but he is a total unknown, and he supported Bush’s policies down the line. I and most Americans could no longer support the Administration for a variety of reasons, the war in particular as mine, and so voted against the GOP.

A pattern has developed throughout your posts. Being pro life appears to have very little bearing on your party support.

That is the “dumbing down” factor on the importance of murder. If you believe that life starts at conception, there simply is no other way to look at it.

Here is a fact and it cannot be disputed, the democratic party is adamant in its conviction that abortion is here to stay.

If you hear something enough times, more and more Christians will believe it, it will become more acceptable. That is happening now and arguing that the issue is basically non existant (as you constantly are doing) makes it more and more acceptable.

 

[dmelosi]

If pro-lifers were to be consistent in their belief, they would want the women punished as much as they’d want the abortionist to be punished. Suppose a woman asked a physician prescribe a poison to kill her one-year-old because the child was the product of her having been raped. Does anyone actually think that she should go free in that instance and only the actual killer to go to jail? Yet, most pro-lifers would give the woman a pass if it were an abortion. Where’s the consistency?

It seems you are arguing against pro lifers here. And why do you bring punishment into this. It is about changing hearts and minds, abortion is legal, so no punishment from people, but everyone still has to face and answer to God.

 

[Richardols]

A pattern has developed throughout your posts. Being pro life appears to have very little bearing on your party support.

Far from it. I am a member of Democrats For Life, and support pro-life Democrats financially and with my vote. Most of the Legislature in my state are both Democrats and pro-life and I do support them.

Arkansas is unique in the South in that both Senators are Democrats and three of the four Representatives are also Democrats. Only the northwest part of the state consistently elects a Republican Representative. But, the state went for Bush in '00 and '04. Go figure.

BTW, Vern Humphrey, a frequent poster here, ran unsuccessfully for the 1st District House seat as a Republican in '04. Apart from their other differences, both he and his Democratic opponent (the current incumbent) are pro-life.

 

[Richardols]

It seems you are arguing against pro lifers here. And why do you bring punishment into this. It is about changing hearts and minds, abortion is legal, so no punishment from people, but everyone still has to face and answer to God.

No. Thekla noted the inconsistency of the pro-life position towards the abortionist and the one requesting the abortion. When abortion is eventually outlawed, those who participate in it should be equally liable.

 

[HoppityRedux]

You say single issue voter…but I tend to believe people who study the faith and believe that abortion is murder. I find it hard to believe those that sell their soul for power. I firmly believe that any politican who is Catholic and promotes pro choice, probably does think that abortion is killing, yet overlook it for power. My conclusion, how can you believe such a politician in anything. To me, those that do so are less credible, so I believe more of the other issues.

You overlook that abortion is murder.

I research most of the other issues and can argue with well researched back up. The point here is that democrats are mostly pro murder and republicans are mostly pro life.

If you cut to the chase on what abortion is, I don’t know how you can come to any other conclusion.

I overlook nothing. I observe that succes of the single issue anti-abortion folks demands a well functioning society and government that can implement the laws they want to see enacted. Most seem to think someone else will provide that environment so they can then use it for their single isue. That is a lack of resonsibility.

 

[dmelosi]

I overlook nothing. I observe that succes of the single issue anti-abortion folks demands a well functioning society and government that can implement the laws they want to see enacted. Most seem to think someone else will provide that environment so they can then use it for their single isue. That is a lack of resonsibility.

Not sure why seem to think that is what I said.

Very typical of twisting things.

Do you think abortion is murder?

Who would you believe a politician who promotes murder or 1 that fights against it.

Credibility is the issue, who do you believe?

 

[Thekla]

If pro-lifers were to be consistent in their belief, they would want the women punished as much as they’d want the abortionist to be punished. Suppose a woman asked a physician prescribe a poison to kill her one-year-old because the child was the product of her having been raped. Does anyone actually think that she should go free in that instance and only the actual killer to go to jail? Yet, most pro-lifers would give the woman a pass if it were an abortion. Where’s the consistency?

I agree with you. If people want to build concensus in this country that abortion is murder, they must present a consistent, unified front. Right now, it’s all over the place. You’ve got the people who avoid abortion=murder and try to make it a state’s rights issue. There is no state in the country where murder is legal.

You’ve got the people who want to make exceptions for rape or incest. You’ve got the people who want to make exceptions for the life of the mother. You’ve got the people who want to punish doctors and not women. You’ve got people who want to punish women and not pharmaceutical companies.

There are no exceptions in this country for murder, the deliberate taking of a life. So, since concensus is so essential, there needs to be a unified position in order to get agreement that abortion is indeed murder.

 

[HoppityRedux]

Not sure why seem to think that is what I said.

Very typical of twisting things.

Do you think abortion is murder?

Who would you believe a politician who promotes murder or 1 that fights against it.

Credibility is the issue, who do you believe?

Who do I believe? I don’t take my beliefs from other people. I decide for myself.

I observe that the laws anti-abortion folks want passed depend on the existence of a society based on the rule of law. It takes involved citizens to maintain such a society. Those who focus only on a single issue abdicate that responsibility to those who choose to assume it.

 

[dmelosi]

Who do I believe? I don’t take my beliefs from other people. I decide for myself.

I observe that the laws anti-abortion folks want passed depend on the existence of a society based on the rule of law. It takes involved citizens to maintain such a society. Those who focus only on a single issue abdicate that responsibility to those who choose to assume it.

You decide for yourself? You have to get the facts from somewhere to make that decision. You can gather those facts from many sources…you certainly have to rely on others, the question then becomes, who do you believe?

Interesting “choice” of words you use anti abortion.

 

[Richardols]

Interesting “choice” of words you use anti abortion.

That’s what we are. We should all be anti-abortion.

 

[HoppityRedux]

You decide for yourself? You have to get the facts from somewhere to make that decision. You can gather those facts from many sources…you certainly have to rely on others, the question then becomes, who do you believe?

Interesting “choice” of words you use anti abortion.

Correct. I gather information and make the decision. Some of the information is fact, some is opinion. Other bits of information contain both. I evaluate each source independently, and use it as I choose. This is my choice.

 

[dmelosi]

Correct. I gather information and make the decision. Some of the information is fact, some is opinion. Other bits of information contain both. I evaluate each source independently, and use it as I choose. This is my choice.

I was just going by what you said earlier about not taking your beliefs from other. Thus the point I made about believing murderers those that defended life.

 

[HoppityRedux]

I was just going by what you said earlier about not taking your beliefs from other. Thus the point I made about believing murderers those that defended life.

When presented with information from either a murderer or someone who defends life, I will use the same process.

 

[dmelosi]

When presented with information from either a murderer or someone who defends life, I will use the same process.

Enough said.

 

[MikeinSD]

When presented with information from either a murderer or someone who defends life, I will use the same process.

Of course defining human life as a fertilized egg makes women who use birth control pills murderers. prolife.com/BIRTHCNT.html
Therefore the term “murderer” has to include the nice suburban women who take their pills and think nothing of it. Such women can then be prosecuted as serial killers.

Also “murderer” may or may not include women who miscarry. The police almost always investigate accidental deaths. Miscarriages are crime scenes and the mother should not always be regarded as innocent. Perhaps she killed her child by not eating correctly. Or taking street drugs or medication. Or for any number of reasons. The mothers can be prosecuted for endangering their children.

Finally, women with heavy menstral flows might also be considered accessories to murder. Failure to implant in the womb kills the fertilized egg. If a fertilized egg equals a 5 year old child, then failure to implant is at best an accidental death. And of course the police should investigate this accidental death and determine if the mother endangered the fertilized egg in any way.

When the term “murderer” encompasses a large percentage of the fertile female population, it becomes meaningless.

 

[dmelosi]

Of course defining human life as a fertilized egg makes women who use birth control pills murderers. prolife.com/BIRTHCNT.html
Therefore the term “murderer” has to include the nice suburban women who take their pills and think nothing of it. Such women can then be prosecuted as serial killers.

Also “murderer” may or may not include women who miscarry. The police almost always investigate accidental deaths. Miscarriages are crime scenes and the mother should not always be regarded as innocent. Perhaps she killed her child by not eating correctly. Or taking street drugs or medication. Or for any number of reasons. The mothers can be prosecuted for endangering their children.

Finally, women with heavy menstral flows might also be considered accessories to murder. Failure to implant in the womb kills the fertilized egg. If a fertilized egg equals a 5 year old child, then failure to implant is at best an accidental death. And of course the police should investigate this accidental death and determine if the mother endangered the fertilized egg in any way.

When the term “murderer” encompasses a large percentage of the fertile female population, it becomes meaningless.

Upon reading your post Mike, a couple of thoughts come to mind…it is obvious that you are set in your Democratic ways, you do not realize the harm you do…this is not a democrat vs republican…this is the very core of abortion being murder. Do you not realize that you give credibility to not only every politician who sells their soul for power, but you are creating a reason for people to “dumb down” the fact that abortion is ok.

Now to respond to your post…
People have to understand that they are committing a sin. The suburbonites as you call them will have to answer to God. While I say that they may not understand that they are committing a sin, our obligation is to live as Christlike as possible. The best example I give is that the Catholic faith does not exclude anyone from heaven, even the radical suicide bomber. That is for God to judge. But you are very much “dumbing down” the fact on abortion. I see you are on this forum all of the time. It is very easy for any person who understands the faith, and easy for humans to see that abortion is murder.

The birth control issue has been "dumbed down so much that it is accepted among most people. Don’t you realize that you are doing the same for the abortion issue? I challenge you to think about that.

People that know what the church/Christ teaches about birth control are in fact committing a mortal sin in the same way as a murderer.

Please tell me how you disagree???

 

[MikeinSD]

Upon reading your post Mike, a couple of thoughts come to mind…it is obvious that you are set in your Democratic ways, you do not realize the harm you do…this is not a democrat vs republican…this is the very core of abortion being murder. Do you not realize that you give credibility to not only every politician who sells their soul for power, but you are creating a reason for people to “dumb down” the fact that abortion is ok.

Now to respond to your post…
People have to understand that they are committing a sin. The suburbonites as you call them will have to answer to God. While I say that they may not understand that they are committing a sin, our obligation is to live as Christlike as possible. The best example I give is that the Catholic faith does not exclude anyone from heaven, even the radical suicide bomber. That is for God to judge. But you are very much “dumbing down” the fact on abortion. I see you are on this forum all of the time. It is very easy for any person who understands the faith, and easy for humans to see that abortion is murder.

The birth control issue has been "dumbed down so much that it is accepted among most people. Don’t you realize that you are doing the same for the abortion issue? I challenge you to think about that.

People that know what the church/Christ teaches about birth control are in fact committing a mortal sin in the same way as a murderer.

Please tell me how you disagree???

Thank you for yr response. I’ll respond more when I have more time.

For the record, I know I’m on a Catholic forum and the Catholic church has definate teachings about abortion. Therefore, I expect Catholics to defend the Church’s instructions.And that, even if I disagree, that I should respect Catholic teachings about abortion.
I do respect the Catholic church’s teachings. I believe good Catholics should not disagree with the Church about abortion, birth control, money worship, etc. If Catholics cannot agree, they should leave the Church. I suggest folks do not stay where they are not wanted.

However this thread is about politics. I’m an American citizen and I definately will discuss politics and the laws of my country. The thread is how the Catholic vote split for the Democrats. I suggest that many Catholics voted on issues besides abortion. BTW, didn’t the voters of South Dakota vote down an anti-abortion law that mirrored Catholic teaching? Why do you think that happened?