Catholic teaching on societal roles

[vern_humphrey]

lifeisbeautiful:

I think I just figured what’s going on. You think that to do the best we can means to climb to the highest position on the corporate ladder etc. (higher positions from a societal view)

Allow me to point out that telling someone else what he or she thinks is a violation of the rules.

We each have a right to express our own positions in our own words.

lifeisbeautiful:

Well, for some, doing the best they can includes that, while for others it doesn’t. A vocation to be a teacher is not the same as a vocation to be a principal. In fact, if a teacher, realizing she is called to be a teacher, tries to be a principal out of pride etc. she will actually be going against God’s will. Now, if she is called to be a principal, and knows this, and decides not to out of laziness etc, then she is not doing God’s will. Its up to our dear friend Jane to recognize what God wants of her and do it, the best she can.

Which is why, if we are to use Jane as our example, we must ask her

Do you honestly believe you are working to your full potential?

If she answers in the affirmative, my point is made. If she answers in the negative, it would be proper to ask her if she feels justified by not working to full potential.

Which is neither here nor there. The question is not about occupations or prestige, but about maximizing the gifts God has given us for the benefit of all.

 

[ahimsaman72]

vern humphrey:

But not the right to claim that you can authoritatively interpret scripture, tradition or the works of saints.

But I’m not claiming that. I simply have asked (from the beginning) what the Catholic view is and the proof to back up your assertions - assuming as a Catholic that you can provide such information. I’m relying on your status as a Catholic and your church as an authority to speak for itself - that’s why I started the thread :whacky:

What have you got that validates yours? Where does the Church teach that all people must accept their current lot in life and not seek to maximize their God-given talents?

Okay, so you can’t provide evidence that the Catholic Church teaches your philosophy but demand it from me - a non-Catholic? I offered verses in the other thread. That’s a partial display of verses that backs up what I am saying. Where does the Church teach maximizing your potential = being a business owner, land owner, or wealthy person? (which, by the way is your idea of potential, isn’t it? correct me if I’m assuming something wrong here)

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

And where does it spell out your philosophical ideas of people being lazy and wasters of God’s talents if they are (God forbid) happy in their work and good at it???

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

ahimsaman72:

I agree with your points - were you intending this for me?

Lol, no hehe. I think you are right, if a person honestly feels that what they are doing is what God wants them to do, then that is what they should do, the best they can. and out of Love for God, even if society thinks poorly of their occupation.

 

[vern_humphrey]

ahimsaman72:

Okay - first you complained about not having a real-world Jane. I gave you a real-world Jane and now you want to question her??? Why should she be here?

Until she can speak for herself, she isn’t a real-world Jane, but only someone’s imagination of what she is and what she would say.

ahimsaman72:

She’s a staunch baptist living back home in the deep south? Why can’t you stick to the question and answer it? You seem bent on avoiding the issue by coming up with more demands. Sorry, you’ve been given the chance to respond and are avoiding it. I just want an honest answer to the question.

I did – I said we all have a duty to maximize the gifts God gave us for the benefit of all.

ahimsaman72:

“Do you honestly believe you are working to your full potential?”

I suppose I will give you an answer anyway since I’m closer to her than anyone and you won’t answer unless I do - she got her batchelor’s and started teaching. She wanted to become a guidance counselor and help kids that way. She went back to college and got her master’s. She began to practice as a counselor and found she was not suited for it even though she had the qualifications. She now teaches and enjoys doing just that - teaching. She is working to her full potential as a child of God and member of society and benefits her children and her own self in the process.

Why won’t you let her answer for herself?

It appears to me her answer would be in the affirmative – that she has, or is striving to maximize her God-given talents.

Is that something to be ashamed of?

ahimsaman72:

Is your idea of potential that is the correct one or is it God’s? You don’t presume to know every individual’s life and circumstances and heart, do you?

That’s exactly why she should speak for herself.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

 

[ahimsaman72]

Okay, well I’m done for the day - got duties elsewhere - not leaving the thread, feel free to fire away!!!

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

Me too, gotta go!

 

[ahimsaman72]

vern humphrey:

Until she can speak for herself, she isn’t a real-world Jane, but only someone’s imagination of what she is and what she would say.

I did – I said we all have a duty to maximize the gifts God gave us for the benefit of all.

Why won’t you let her answer for herself?

It appears to me her answer would be in the affirmative – that she has, or is striving to maximize her God-given talents.

Is that something to be ashamed of?

That’s exactly why she should speak for herself.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

Again, you continue to place demands on something that is cut and dry. You have still not proven your point and only seek to DeLay the inevitable - you can’t answer a question for fear of being shown you could be wrong. Please stick to the subject and answer the question I have now asked multiple times.

Peace…

 

[vern_humphrey]

ahimsaman72:

But I’m not claiming that. I simply have asked (from the beginning) what the Catholic view is and the proof to back up your assertions - assuming as a Catholic that you can provide such information. I’m relying on your status as a Catholic and your church as an authority to speak for itself - that’s why I started the thread

I’ve given it to you over and over, including quoting from the CCC.

ahimsaman72:

Okay, so you can’t provide evidence that the Catholic Church teaches your philosophy but demand it from me - a non-Catholic? I offered verses in the other thread. That’s a partial display of verses that backs up what I am saying. Where does the Church teach maximizing your potential = being a business owner, land owner, or wealthy person? (which, by the way is your idea of potential, isn’t it? correct me if I’m assuming something wrong here)

You are not the Catholic Church.

ahimsaman72:

And where does it spell out your philosophical ideas of people being lazy and wasters of God’s talents if they are (God forbid) happy in their work and good at it???

What part of

If any one will not work, let him not eat."

did you not understand?http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

 

[ahimsaman72]

vern humphrey:

Until she can speak for herself, she isn’t a real-world Jane, but only someone’s imagination of what she is and what she would say.

That’s equivalent to saying that because I cannot see the wind that it does not exist - don’t you see the fallacy in this kind of logic?

 

[vern_humphrey]

ahimsaman72:

That’s equivalent to saying that because I cannot see the wind that it does not exist - don’t you see the fallacy in this kind of logic?

I see the fallacy of thinking the above has any bearing on this discussion.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

We use Jane as an example because we cannot tweak her responses to fit a pre-conceived conclusion. Therefore let us stop tweaking and let her speak for herself.

 

[ahimsaman72]

vern humphrey:

I’ve given it to you over and over, including quoting from the CCC.

Ummmm…that quote has nothing to do with what you are positing. I see two totally different viewpoints - guess it’s just dumb ole’ me

You are not the Catholic Church.

Okay, I understand that

What part of

did you not understand?http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

Speaking another language my friend What does “if a man will not work he will not eat” have to do with Jane being a teacher and living up to her God-given potential? She’s working isn’t she? Is she out of a job? Man, it’s like the twilight zone :bigyikes:

 

[ahimsaman72]

vern humphrey:

I see the fallacy of thinking the above has any bearing on this discussion.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

We use Jane as an example because we cannot tweak her responses to fit a pre-conceived conclusion. Therefore let us stop tweaking and let her speak for herself.

Well, it’s obvious I’m seeing apples and you are seeing oranges.

So, what would be your example? Oh, I forgot - any example we give is fictional and cannot be measured, right? You have to have a real-life example and then you have to question them and then you have to…it’s endless avoidance.

 

[vern_humphrey]

ahimsaman72:

Speaking another language my friend What does “if a man will not work he will not eat” have to do with Jane being a teacher and living up to her God-given potential? She’s working isn’t she? Is she out of a job? Man, it’s like the twilight zone

Since Jane isn’t here to speak for herself I question the ethics of talking about her behind her back.

The quote from the CCC is from 2 Thess 3,10. In context (which is the Catholic way) it reads.:

7For you know how one must imitate us. For we did not act in a disorderly way among you,

8 nor did we eat food received free from anyone. On the contrary, in toil and drudgery, night and day we worked, so as not to burden any of you.

9 Not that we do not have the right. Rather, we wanted to present ourselves as a model for you, so that you might imitate us.

10 In fact, when we were with you, we instructed you that if anyone was unwilling to work, neither should that one eat.

Also 1 Thess 4, 10-12

10 Indeed, you do this for all the brothers throughout Macedonia. Nevertheless we urge you, brothers, to progress even more,

11 and to aspire to live a tranquil life, to mind your own affairs, and to work with your (own) hands, as we instructed you,

12 that you may conduct yourselves properly toward outsiders and not depend on anyone.

The Church clearly tells us we must work. It also makes it plain that anyone who can work must not be a burden on others. Beyond that we are commanded to help others.

Clearly we have a duty to maximize the talents God has given us for the benefit of all.

Now is your sister going to tell us that she is working below her present potential? Will she say, in effect, “I know I could do more for the children if I took a position of greater responsibility, but I choose not to do that?”

Let her speak for herself.

 

[vern_humphrey]

ahimsaman72:

Well, it’s obvious I’m seeing apples and you are seeing oranges.

So, what would be your example? Oh, I forgot - any example we give is fictional and cannot be measured, right? You have to have a real-life example and then you have to question them and then you have to…it’s endless avoidance.

I haven’t introduced examples – that’s your approach.

If I wished, I could simply go to the local jail and select any one of the prisoners. It would be easy to show how they violate Paul’s teaching that those who do not work should not eat. It would be easy to show how they are a drain on society, and how we are unable to do things like educate the children as they should be educated because of the funds we must spend on those who have thrown away God’s talents.

 

[Pug]

ahimsaman72:

So, what is the actual teaching of the Catholic Church on the role of people in society? And hopefully we can stick to either Bible and/or Traditional teachings that make this explicit for us.

The Vatican 2 document Gaudium et Spes could be somewhat useful to you. It can be found here, if you would like to read it. It is probably too long to be of use, though. It has stuff in it like:

Hence, the norm of human activity is this: that in accord with the divine plan and will, it harmonize with the genuine good of the human race, and that it allow men as individuals and as members of society to pursue their total vocation and fulfil it.

I think a woman could decide to persuse a slightly different career if it fit into her total life better, like it gives her more time with their kids, or provides the opportunity to meet more colleagues, or allows her to attend daily mass, or whatever. It depends. How helpful, I know.

 

[LSK]

ahimsaman72:

Let me give you an example -

Jane is loving, kind, and loves working with children. She is intelligent and witty and feels like God has given her the ability to connect with children on an emotional level and spiritual level. And given that she is intelligent and feels like she would be serving God by using these multiple attributes in a teaching position at the local elementary school.

What is wrong with this? If she spends the rest of her life in the service of the community BECAUSE SHE WANTS TO and FEELS GOD URGING HER in this endeavor - who are you and I to say that she should naturally strive to be a principal - superintendent or anything else?

An argument was made that everyone should live up to their God-given potential and that said people should strive upwards in society in all cases. In other words - a carpenter should not be content with his job as a carpenter - he must strive to own his own company and not work for others. Or a teacher should naturally not stay a teacher even if she loves it and it is beneficial to society. And this philosophy is based supposedly on Catholic teaching and anything else is a “waste” of their God-given talents (whatever that may be).

So, what is the actual teaching of the Catholic Church on the role of people in society? And hopefully we can stick to either Bible and/or Traditional teachings that make this explicit for us.

I appreciate your comments and God bless…

I am always puzzled when someone uses the phrase “supposed Catholic teachings”. Could you help me by quoting either from the Catechism, a magisterium document or other such specific source? I get so easily confused…I would appreciate it. Thank you!

If you mean that someone said one should never hide their light under a bushel and/or bury the gifts and talents one has been given by God, then your example certainly would hold true to that - Jane is using her talents to the best of her abilities. If, however, she just wants to work with children, and yet has a talent in administrative work and might do the children much more good by putting that talent to work as an administrator, perhaps she needs to examine her conscience and discern if she is doing GOD’s will or her OWN will…it would not be for us to judge.

 

[CarolAnnSFO]

lifeisbeautiful:

I think I just figured what’s going on. You think that to do the best we can means to climb to the highest position on the corporate ladder etc. (higher positions from a societal view) Well, for some, doing the best they can includes that, while for others it doesn’t. A vocation to be a teacher is not the same as a vocation to be a principal. In fact, if a teacher, realizing she is called to be a teacher, tries to be a principal out of pride etc. she will actually be going against God’s will. Now, if she is called to be a principal, and knows this, and decides not to out of laziness etc, then she is not doing God’s will. Its up to our dear friend Jane to recognize what God wants of her and do it, the best she can.

I agree! Why is it so hard for some to understand that for many people, “maximizing their God-given potential” will leave them as teachers or carpenters, and not principals or head of the carpenters’ union? Why should every teacher strive to be a principal? For goodness sake, we need great teachers – your children are in their hands. If someone has a true gift for teaching, it would be a shame to waste it by sitting in a principal’s office all day.

Just an aside, I know many, many people who started out as sales representatives and worked their way up into high-level executive positions – then realized that they hated the “executive life”, and went back to being sales reps. Sorry, but I just don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. If they are happy being sales reps, and are good at it, what’s the harm? They perform a valuable service for their employer, and there are plenty of other people willing to claw their way up the ladder – it’s not as if the “top” jobs are going unfilled.

And I put quotes around “top” because I don’t believe that the top level jobs are necessarily the most important jobs. They may pay the most, but there are ways to measure worth other than money.

lifeisbeautiful:

Occupations that may seem little in society’s eyes, when done well and with Love for God, can lead someone straight to Heaven.

St. Francis renounced his wealth, and his future in his family’s cloth business, and I think he did OK.

Crazy Internet Junkies Society
Carrier of the Angelic Sparkles Sprinkle Bag

 

[vern_humphrey]

CarolAnnSFO:

I agree! Why is it so hard for some to understand that for many people, “maximizing their God-given potential” will leave them as teachers or carpenters,

I’m not the one who is assuming that when a person has maximized his or her God-given talents they necessarily have to leave their profession,

great teachers – your children are in their hands. If someone has a true gift for teaching, it would be a shame to waste it by sitting in a principal’s office all day.

Do you agree that one who holds service as his or her justification should ask “Is this the best service I can render?”

 

[itsjustdave1988]

vern humphrey:

How do you know it’s God’s will?

Prayerful discernment, assessing one’s charisms, listening to others, allowing the Spirit of God to guide you.

Is it God’s will that everyone keep the first job they get in life, and never try to better themselves?

Nobody even hinted at such a thing. Nor is it correct to say “people should strive upwards in society in all cases.” Christians “better themselves” by living more like Christ. “The vocation of humanity is to show forth the image of God and to be transformed into the image of the Father’s only Son.” (CCC 1877)

Saying “It’s God’s will” in circumstances like this is more Muslim than Catholic.

I disagree. We should discern God’s will in all circumstances without exception, and follow it. If this contrary to Catholic teaching, then it’s news to me. The faithful are sent forth “so that they may fulfill God’s will in their daily lives.” (CCC 1332).

I don’t know how Islam came into the discussion.

"It makes no difference what you do here on earth; what matters is the love with which you do it." (Archbishop Fulton Sheen*, Seven Words of Jesus and Mary, *30)

 

[itsjustdave1988]

CarolAnnSFO,

St. Francis came to my mind as well.