Catholic Traditions

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James82 said:
Hey Randy, quick question:

As one coming into the Church, I have often pondered what Christ was referring to when he spoke of ‘vain repetition’. Although I have started to pray the Rosary, and indeed it does bear fruit (for me anyway), some of my old Protestant hangovers start protesting in my mind when I recite Hail Mary’s specifically.

I wonder if our Church forefathers or the Church itself has laid out anything that we can take as an example of vain repetition? Perhaps an objective dichotomy to look at would help soothe the little puritans running around in my mind.

Thanks!

In Christ,

James
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The footnote in the Ignatius Study Bible says:

Jesus briefly considers the false religiosity of Gentiles. Pagans would recite long litanies of divine names to gain the attention of the gods. This was meant to ensure that the deity was addressed properly. Jesus considers the practice empty–i.e, devoid of faith and of love for the deity. Note that his warning is not aimed at repetitious or lengthy prayer in itself. With a pure heart, such prayer can be fruitful and intimate. Jesus himself prayed to the Father in Gethsemane three times “saying the same words” and “all night” before choosing the apostles.
 
dandy1822 said:
i really carn’t comment on tobit as we don’t posses that book in our bible, but there possibly is only certain people who can approach the throne of god. but in tim 2:5 is says that only one person can mediate between man and god and that it is jesus.
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Please CAPITALIZE the names of “GOD” and “JESUS”. Thanks you.

I happen to agree with you, dandy. God sent His One Mediator to us, and nobody else. That, however, does NOT mean that nobody else can pray on our behalf. I know that in MY Bible; NOWHERE does it say that there is ‘one messenger between God and man’.

I recall a homily I heard last Christmas Day about a lady who had a flock of geese in her yard on a bitterly cold day. She opened her heated garage for them, but they wouldn’t go in. She came to the realization that all her exhortations were useless because she didn’t speak goose.

God HAD to send Jesus to us because He needed Jesus to bring Himself to us. I suppose God could have dropped the Bible down from Heaven instead, but isn’t God a little more loving than that? God sent a Teacher, a Brother, an Example. Someone to deliver the Good News and put us back on track.

Does that mean when we talk to God, NOBODY else can speak on our behalf? That is NOT in the Bible.
Randy_Carson said:
The footnote in the Ignatius Study Bible says:

Jesus briefly considers the false religiosity of Gentiles. Pagans would recite long litanies of divine names to gain the attention of the gods. This was meant to ensure that the deity was addressed properly. Jesus considers the practice empty–i.e, devoid of faith and of love for the deity. Note that his warning is not aimed at repetitious or lengthy prayer in itself. With a pure heart, such prayer can be fruitful and intimate. Jesus himself prayed to the Father in Gethsemane three times “saying the same words” and “all night” before choosing the apostles.
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I have never heard that before! That’s good stuff! Thank you!
 
dandy1822 said:
i really carn’t comment on tobit as we don’t posses that book in our bible, but there possibly
is only certain people who can approach the throne of god. but in tim 2:5 is says that only
one person can mediate between man and god and that it is jesus.
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This evidently does not refer to prayer, as Christ himself taught us to pray, “Our Father,” etc. Therefore, it would seem that all men may appeal directly to the Father through prayer.
 
Randy_Carson said:
The footnote in the Ignatius Study Bible says:

Jesus briefly considers the false religiosity of Gentiles. Pagans would recite long litanies of divine names to gain the attention of the gods. This was meant to ensure that the deity was addressed properly. Jesus considers the practice empty–i.e, devoid of faith and of love for the deity. Note that his warning is not aimed at repetitious or lengthy prayer in itself. With a pure heart, such prayer can be fruitful and intimate. Jesus himself prayed to the Father in Gethsemane three times “saying the same words” and “all night” before choosing the apostles.
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Yep, I have the ICSB. That actually rings a bell, thanks!
 
Where did Dandy go? I was looking forward to defending the BVM, would of been a first for me. 😦
 
You’re going to find that once a good defense is made regarding one doctrine or another; doubters, anti-Catholics, etc… tend to make themselves scarce. That’s just how it goes around here. 🤷

I completely schooled someone a few days ago and he basically sued for peace (he didn’t want to debate anymore).

If you keep comming back, James, TRUST ME… you’ll get your chance to defend the BVM. Maybe not against him, but they keep comming.
 
James82 said:
Strange that…I could of sworn that when I pray my Rosary I open with the Apostle’s Creed and an Our Father and meditate on the Gospel. Begs the question, which Rosary are you referring to?
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why, how many rosarys do you have, isn’t one bad enough? you say you do the our
father and mediate on the gospel, then you couldn’t have mediated it very good because the
rosary is not in gospel. but why pray the our father do you really think the rosary interests
him?
 
dandy1822 said:
why, how many rosarys do you have, isn’t one bad enough? you say you do the our
father and mediate on the gospel, then you couldn’t have mediated it very good because the
rosary is not in gospel. but why pray the our father do you really think the rosary interests
him?
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The rosary enables us to focus on 20 different events in the life of Jesus.

How can it be bad to do that, Dandy? 🤷
 
dandy1822 said:
but where in the bible is any catholic tradition?
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The Bible IS a Catholic tradition. That is why you have a bible. Everything that is “handed on” is by definition a tradition. Since the scriptures have been handed on to us, they are also a tradition. But, Jesus and the Apostles said and did many things that are not in the bible (John 20:30, 21:25 and many others). Were they false? Meaningless? Have they been lost?

Of course not!

The bible tells us in numerous places that it is an incomplete record and does not contain (cannot contain) all of the words and acts of a living God.

Since God’s word does not return to Him void (Isaiah 55:11), and since man lives by every word that flows from the mouth of God (Deuteronomy 8:3, Matthew 4:4), there must be a living body of tradition which both preserves it and hands it on. That is not and cannot be the bible.
 
dandy1822 said:
why, how many rosarys do you have, isn’t one bad enough? you say you do the our
father and mediate on the gospel, then you couldn’t have mediated it very good because the
rosary is not in gospel. but why pray the our father do you really think the rosary interests
him?
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Are you a minimalist? Do you seek the absolute, bare minimum in all things? Do you seek to love Christ only enough to get into heaven, and no more? Do you pray only when needed?

Each and every Catholic devotion has been revealed to be but one additional way for us to draw nearer our Lord, to deepen our personal relationship with Him.

I see “bible alone” as the greatest tragedy in all of Christianity, as it waters down the faith. “Me and Jesus” - nearly always manifests with “me” first.
 
dandy… would you care to tell us what denomination you belong to so we can debate you fairly?

As far as a Catholic Tradition found in the Bible, how about fasting???

Matt. 9:15; Mark 2:20; Luke 5:35 - many non-Catholics frown upon the Church’s pious practice of fasting, and say that fasting went away after the resurrection of Christ. But Jesus Himself says that His followers will fast once He is gone and does not object.

Matt. 6:16-18 - in fact, Jesus even gives instructions on how to fast. Jesus says, “Do not look dismal like the hypocrites, but look clean and refreshed.”

Matt. 17-21; Mark 9:29 - Jesus teaches that only prayer and fasting had special power to cure a man possessed by a demon. Jesus teaches about the efficacy of fasting and how fasting, coupled with prayer, is acceptable and pleasing to God.

Luke 2:37 - Anna the widow worshiped God with fasting and prayer night and day. The Church has always taught that, by virtue of our priesthood conferred in baptism, our fasting participates in the priesthood of Christ by atoning for the temporal punishments due to our and other people’s sins.

Acts 13:2-3; 14:23 - the apostles engaged in prayer and fasting in connection with ordaining leaders of the Church. Prayer and fasting have always been the practice of the Church.

1 Tim. 4:3 - when Paul refers to doctrines that require abstinence from foods, some Protestants refer to this verse to condemn the Catholic Church’s practice of fasting. But Paul is referring to abstinence and any other practice that is performed apart from Christ’s teachings. Fasting, on the other hand, is done in obedience to Christ’s teachings of taking up our cross and following Him, by participating in His sufferings so we can share in His glory. When citing this verse, these Protestants do not explain why Jesus prophesied that his followers would fast and why Jesus gave instructions on how to fast.

Any response?
 
Dandy,

For what it’s worth I too was once in your shoes. Half my family is largely Northern Irish Protestant in lineage, and I once took great pride in it. So I can tell you, I KNOW what to dislike Catholicism is like. It really is just a whole lot of ignorance of facts and history, but as Christians we have to grow up, you know?

I see in your posts a lot of fire for God and that’s not objectively bad. But God doesn’t need that from you in the context of railing against other Christians (indeed the FIRST Christians).

For myself, when I look across to other side now, it’s no longer filled with distorted anger and resentment, more so a sort of sadness. It’s like looking at a cup half full, a cup that needn’t be that way.

Clearly from some of your posts you do not understand what Catholic Tradition, the Rosary and other tradition and sacramentals are.

I don’t think you would be on here arguing with us unless some deep part of you is wondering “are they right?”…right? 🙂

Good luck.
 
dandy1822 said:
why, how many rosarys do you have, isn’t one bad enough? you say you do the our
father and mediate on the gospel, then you couldn’t have mediated it very good because the
rosary is not in gospel. but why pray the our father do you really think the rosary interests
him?
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The Hail Mary is a totally Christ centered prayer as is the Rosary which contains it. Read your Bible which states that Mary’s soul magnifies the Lord. You can’t pit Mary against Jesus because she magnifies him. I read the Bible and I see that Mary never takes any glory for herself but always reflects all glory she is given directly to her Son. She is described as being clothed with the sun and standing on the moon. This is because she has the light of Christ on her (the sun) but always reflects it back to Him (the moon reflects the light of the sun). You may want to read more about what the Rosary truly is before you speak against it - vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_20021016_rosarium-virginis-mariae_en.html

Mary wants nothing more than to bring everyone closer to her Son. Look at her missions in the Bible. She brought Jesus and the Holy Spirit to Elizabeth and John. She told the servants at Cana to do whatever He tells them. Jesus did what she said when she interceded.
 
dandy1822 said:
i really carn’t comment on tobit as we don’t posses that book in our bible, but there possibly
is only certain people who can approach the throne of god. but in tim 2:5 is says that only
one person can mediate between man and god and that it is jesus.
Click to expand...
Pulling verses out of Scripture to support an idea doesn’t really work well when you don’t consider Scripture as a whole. What does Timothy 2:5 really mean? He’s talking about the New Covenant vs the Old. Paul also talks about this in Galatians 3:19. The old law was given by angels by a mediator and the people under the law were children of Israel. Once Christ came and died for our sins, we became heirs through the promise by way of baptism and faith. This is how we become actually sons and daughters of God in true relationship which means we no longer needed a mediator for the law because it is written on our hearts instead. This has nothing to do with intercessory prayer including that of the Blessed Mother. In fact, just before he says that in Timothy 2:5, he encourages intercessory prayer.
 
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