Catholic vs Southern Baptist

[Karen1960]

I will as soon as you tell me the teaching of your church on justification; being right before God.

Our Teaching are very clear, either read the above post by "FidesSpesCarita" or refer to the CC. Our Teaching are very easy to find.

NOW will you kindly explain **your **statement below,

"see how other religions change the message of the gospel; pay close attention to justification; this is where the attack on the gospel generally is assulted".

Explain how the Catholic Church changed the Gospel and how we “assulted” it.

 

[tmac1956]

snip…

This ticks me off, big time. Yes, the SBC believes in the Perseverance of the Saints. Once a person comes to faith in Christ, that person begins a process of sanctification that goes throughout the regererate person’s life. You CAN NOT do whatever you want and get to heaven. JonNC’s quote from Luther in his signature sums it up well: “There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.”

This is ignorance on the level of Protestants saying “Catholics worship Mary.”

I believe you have stated the SBC doctrine well. However, coming from a Southern Baptist background, I don’t believe that view to be held by all Souther Baptists - by their very nature SB’s are independent, believing more in what the pastor preaches than doctrines stated by the SBC.

The Church that I grew up in - and most of the others that I’ve attended since (in the Southern US), don’t hold to the reasoned view that you stated above. The typical circular response to challenges of OSAS, is that if a person commits some horrific sin, they weren’t saved to begin with. That’s why Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium are so important to Catholics.

snip… Here are some pics of our old building from when it was featured in a historic church tour. It was designed in 1903:

How fortunate you are to worship in such a beautiful church. I recently attended my aunt’s funeral at her Southern Baptist church and what struck me were the lack religious symbols in the building. There was only one cross in the chapel and that was located on top of the U.S. flag pole - about six inches tall, placed behind the choir. It was like a white sterilized seplecur. Very sad.

 

[Janet1983]

I think I know what he was talking about and I agree… I do not believe everybody in the CC is a Christian either…

But before you stone me now here me out:

I don’t believe that everybody in the other churches is a Christian either…
May they be Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian, Anglican, Lutheran, Reformed, Presbyterian, Congregationalist, Anabaptist, Brethren, Methodist, Baptist, Apostolic, Pentecostal, Charismatic, African Initiated, United, Adventist, Millerite, part of the Pietists and Holiness Churches, part of the Religious Society of Friends (Quaker), part of the Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement or any other group…

I do not believe that 100% of their individual members are Christians, but I would never say that none of they members are…

Just because somebody was baptized as a baby does not mean that they are really Christians and living accordingly. Just because somebody prayed a prayer once does not mean that they are truly regenerate…

How many people claim to be Christians if you ask them, but do not give any evidence with their lives? Many people would not be found guilty for lack of evidence if they were to be tried for being Christians…

Others still just do the chores and live their lives according to the rules… They show outwards Christianity, but their heart is not with it… They give lip-service every time they enter a church and even outside of those buildings… They give that impression of piety to everybody, but apart from this show there is nothing else…

However I am certain that there are quite a few true Christians scattered throughout these groups that truly love God with all their heart mind and soul. They are no longer conformed to this world, but they are being transformed by the renewing of their mind, so that they may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect… They truly are dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Philippians 2:5-8

 

[pipper]

I can’t be dogmatic; I, like God, look at people on a case by case basis beginning with what one believes about the gospel and what view they for Scripture. If an individual rejects the gospel, which is done in a variety of ways, then they are not a Christian. I do not condemn anyone; they will condemn themselves and it is God’s authority to do so plus we do not know when the HS will enter into a life to change it.

If someone holds onto the teaching of your church and believe them with their heart, mind and soul, then I wouldn’t want to be them. I would never want ot be a Pope or priest or bishop in your church.

I belong to a Southern Baptist church, not because it is southern baptist, but because they hold the standards taught in the Bible. What I have found unique about the SBC’s in my area is that when you walk into one, you have walked into all of them. I do not put any emphasis on denomination; you are either Christian or you are not, God has entered you or He has not.

Apparantly Derek you beleive that anyone who “gits saved” is a Christian and will go to heaven no matter which church or even no church they belong to?

Every one’s on their own completely? Is that why Protestant is so very individualistic why Protestants are so apt to say “my” Lord instead of “our” Lord?

The fact is that none of this theology even existed before the 16th century when invented by Luther and Calvin. The church came before the bible in history and the church produced the bible, put her teachings in the bible not the other way around.

Why should we who are in the origanal church listed to the insults and implications that we aren’t Christians of the folower of a new upstart religion, who is unaware that there are four gospels and not just one?

 

[Bill_Pick]

Yes very much so,it is Christian

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

I can’t be dogmatic; I, like God, look at people on a case by case basis beginning with what one believes about the gospel and what view they for Scripture. If an individual rejects the gospel, which is done in a variety of ways, then they are not a Christian. I do not condemn anyone; they will condemn themselves and it is God’s authority to do so plus we do not know when the HS will enter into a life to change it.

If someone holds onto the teaching of your church and believe them with their heart, mind and soul, then I wouldn’t want to be them. I would never want ot be a Pope or priest or bishop in your church.

I belong to a Southern Baptist church, not because it is southern baptist, but because they hold the standards taught in the Bible. What I have found unique about the SBC’s in my area is that when you walk into one, you have walked into all of them. I do not put any emphasis on denomination; you are either Christian or you are not, God has entered you or He has not.

“I can’t be dogmatic” ???
For one who can’t be dogmatic you set a great example of one who can.
(You tell us how undogmatic you are and then go about proving how dogmatic you are).

In an earlier posting you asked why I tend to quote. Seems to me a lot of postings start out from the viewpoint, “I think…” and argue from this interpretative position. Just trying to provide balance and keep focus on Catholic Teaching
From what I have witnessed inside and outside this forum Catholic Teaching is unknown territory (even to some Catholics)
Name of this forum: “Catholic Answers”

Justification:

God ‘has delivered us from the dominion of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins’ (Col 1:13-14)
We are called to this new life from a sinful state. In justification we receive 'not only remission of sins, but also a sanctification and renewal of the inner man through the voluntary reception of the grace and gifts whereby an unjust man becomes just and from being an enemy becomes a friend, that he may be 'an heir according to the hope of life everlasting" *(Titus 3:7) * Justification is a gift and we must grow in it (Col 1:9-12), but it is in our relationship with God who gives the grace to grow (1 Cor 6:6)

 

[DerekD]

now answer the question!
1990 justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of god, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon god’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with god. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 justification is at the same time the acceptance of god’s righteousness through faith in jesus christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

1992 justification has been merited for us by the passion of christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to god, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. justification is conferred in baptism, the sacrament of faith. it conforms us to the righteousness of god, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of god and of christ, and the gift of eternal life:40

but now the righteousness of god has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of god through faith in jesus christ for all who believe. ***for there is no distinction: Since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of god, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in christ jesus, whom god put forward as an expiation {should be “propitiation” to be 100% accurate} by his blood, to be received by faith. {by faith alone - no baptism of water needed nor required}***this was to show god’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in jesus.41

1993 justification establishes cooperation between god’s grace and man’s freedom. {not taught in holy scripture-error}on man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the word of god, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the holy spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

{now it sounds like one is not saved “invites him to conversion”; double talking and not the gospel.

When god touches man’s heart through the illumination of the holy spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without god’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in god’s sight.42

1994 justification is the most excellent work of god’s love made manifest in christ jesus and granted by the holy spirit. It is the opinion of st. Augustine that “the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth,” because ***"heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . Will not pass away *{justification is salvation}/****i]."43 he holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.

1995 the holy spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being: major error & constitutes a works gospel as i and many many others see it and more importantly as god will see it; aisi and has no biblical basis; justification and santification are not two sides of the same coin; one is justified or saved from his sin against god, which is salvation, saved from what? Sin and its penalty; then and only then will the santifying work of the holy spirit begin, which will result in the true believer becoming more like christ and witnessed to men by his life.
edit

ii. Grace

1996 our justification comes from the grace of god. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that god gives us to respond to his call to become children of god, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

continued

 

[banarick]

Yes; as evident by the many quotes taken completely out of context and as evidenced by the continual defense of the Church in and against the teaching of Scripture; meaning more time defending the Church versus more time spent defending Scripture; it is the Protestants that are defending the Scripture.

Christ told His disciples to go to the ends of the earth to make disciples, which all are called to spread the good news; not just the pastors and teachers. I would agree with you about the Mass if you took away the priesthood and the literal sacrafice, which neither are represented in the NT in the form your church uses.

That’s nice that you receive some indulgence, can’t find that in the Bible either.

The quotes themselves show biblical literacy. Your problem with Catholics here is in interpretation. The reasoning for the priesthood, sacrafice, and indulgences is here on this website. It is taken from the Bible, Sacred Tradition, and early Christian practices. Type in the Didache and St Ignatius of Antioch for some really interesting reading.

 You also disagree with Catholics regarding the issue of Authority.  In theory, for Baptists everyone comes to their own understanding of Scripture and for Catholics it is heirarchical and apostolic.   Jesus chose men to be appointed Teachers.  He breathed on them the power to teach and pass it on to their  successors.    You have stated earlier that you would not want to be a Pope in our Church.    In reality every Baptist is his own Pope. 


 Faith is also has a difference in meaning between us.  For many Protestants it is a formula for merely accepting Christ.  A sentiment concerning a single  or a few points of Christian Revelation.  

 Faith for a Catholic is acceptance and belief of ALL God has revealed.  This includes mysteries, miracles, and spiritual realities simply because God has supernaturally revealed them,  

 Catholics will not refer to the Bible Alone because it is unscriptural,  We refer to Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and early Christian practices.   It makes sense to us that the first Christians who were practicing our Faith, like St Ignatius of Antioch, ( 3rd Bishop of Antioch, disciple of St John, Martyr)  got it right.  Especially since they practiced our Faith while the Apostles were still alive and writing the New Testament.  If you understand the Early Fathers you will understand Catholics even if you dont agree with us.

 What this really means is that we are literate in Scripture, Tradition, and Early Church History and Practices.   Maybe we are not as ignorant as portrayed.

 

[DerekD]

RESUMED FROM PREV> POST

Romans 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law {comes} the knowledge of sin. 21 But now apart from the Law {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. {This was} to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, {I say,} of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

When ever you see the term law, think of the legalistic Jewish mosaic law; Christ had much to say about the legalists and God has always saved people the same way through faith by His grace. The legalist will always add somethng to the gift, as though man has anything to do with his salvation. the legalist will always add some activity to the gift of grace therfore voiding the gift of grace and creating a false human standard, making God is his image as I see it.

I’ll tell you there are many ways to reject the gospel; believing one that is simialar, yet different is one way and flat out rejecting it is another. So if anyone holds to the doctrine of justification through water baptism or a sacrament or mixes sanctification (which is a works process) with being declared righteous (justified) by the propitiation of the blood of Jesus, then it is another gospel as taught in Scripture as I see it.

Who holds on to that belief within any specific local church I cannot say, but I can say that if anyone believes another gospel, then heaven has already pronounced a curse.

 

[DerekD]

The quotes themselves show biblical literacy. Your problem with Catholics here is in interpretation. The reasoning for the priesthood, sacrafice, and indulgences is here on this website. It is taken from the Bible, Sacred Tradition, and early Christian practices. Type in the Didache and St Ignatius of Antioch for some really interesting reading.

 You also disagree with Catholics regarding the issue of Authority.  In theory, for Baptists everyone comes to their own understanding of Scripture and for Catholics it is heirarchical and apostolic.   Jesus chose men to be appointed Teachers.  He breathed on them the power to teach and pass it on to their  successors.    You have stated earlier that you would not want to be a Pope in our Church.    In reality every Baptist is his own Pope.

Faith is also has a difference in meaning between us. For many Protestants it is a formula for merely accepting Christ. A sentiment concerning a single or a few points of Christian Revelation.

 Faith for a Catholic is acceptance and belief of ALL God has revealed.  This includes mysteries, miracles, and spiritual realities simply because God has supernaturally revealed them,  

 Catholics will not refer to the Bible Alone because it is unscriptural,  We refer to Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and early Christian practices.   It makes sense to us that the first Christians who were practicing our Faith, like St Ignatius of Antioch, ( 3rd Bishop of Antioch, disciple of St John, Martyr)  got it right.  Especially since they practiced our Faith while the Apostles were still alive and writing the New Testament.  If you understand the Early Fathers you will understand Catholics even if you dont agree with us.

 What this really means is that we are literate in Scripture, Tradition, and Early Church History and Practices.   Maybe we are not as ignorant as portrayed.

I guess that depends who you claim is a early church father and whether they were Christians or hereticts; if they write according to Scripture, then they were probably Christians; if contrary to Scritpure, then they were apostates or heretics. Now you will say that scripture wasn’t written yet, but the teaching of the apostles, which is what is in the written Bible, was known and God’s word does not change nor does the way he reveals his truth, which is to EACH INDIVIDUAL according to Scripture. Anyone who cannot understand Scripture and relies soley on another entity besides the HS is probably in great danger. The only way you will ever get the gospel correct is one person at a time as God choses to remove the veil of blindness.

I don’t think you all are ignorant of religion as Catholics, but I haven’t seen one yet that understands the gospel of salvation apart from works, legalism, or a sacrament.

***Ga 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law *{legalism or works IOW}; **you have fallen from grace. **

Ro 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Ro 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;

Ex 31:13 "But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for {this} is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you.

Le 20:8 'You shall keep My statutes and practice them; I am the LORD who sanctifies you.

Le 22:9 'They shall therefore keep My charge, so that they will not bear sin because of it and die thereby because they profane it; I am the LORD who sanctifies them.

Le 22:32 "You shall not profane My holy name, but I will be sanctified among the sons of Israel; I am the LORD who sanctifies you,

Eze 20:12 "Also I gave them My sabbaths to be a sign between Me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them.

Eze 37:28 “And the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.’”"

Heb 2:11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one {Father;} for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,

 

[AwGusTeen]

snip…
When ever you see the term law, think of the legalistic Jewish mosaic law; Christ had much to say about the legalists and God has always saved people the same way through faith by His grace. The legalist will always add somethng to the gift, as though man has anything to do with his salvation. the legalist will always add some activity to the gift of grace therfore voiding the gift of grace and creating a false human standard, making God is his image as I see it.

Clearly, that would be your opinion and one with which I completely disagree. Your opinion carries no more weight than those of others here.

I’ll tell you there are many ways to reject the gospel; believing one that is simialar, yet different is one way and flat out rejecting it is another. So if anyone holds to the doctrine of justification through water baptism or a sacrament or mixes sanctification (which is a works process) with being declared righteous (justified) by the propitiation of the blood of Jesus, then it is another gospel as taught in Scripture as I see it.

Oh really? What was the last command that Christ gave the apostles? Matthew 28:19 “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:” If it was important enough for Jesus to leave this as his last command, then it must have been very important to him. That doesn’t sound like another gospel to me.

Who holds on to that belief within any specific local church I cannot say, but I can say that if anyone believes another gospel, then heaven has already pronounced a curse.

So you say. Thankfully, God will be my judge and not you. Me thinks you have committed the sin of presumption here. Why is your interpretation of scripture any more infallible than mine? Does the Holy Spirit give you truth while denying it to others who disagree with your interpretation? How utterly arrogant! Good luck with that attitude.

 

[DerekD]

I believe you have stated the SBC doctrine well. However, coming from a Southern Baptist background, I don’t believe that view to be held by all Souther Baptists - by their very nature SB’s are independent, believing more in what the pastor preaches than doctrines stated by the SBC.

The Church that I grew up in - and most of the others that I’ve attended since (in the Southern US), don’t hold to the reasoned view that you stated above. The typical circular response to challenges of OSAS, is that if a person commits some horrific sin, they weren’t saved to begin with. That’s why Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium are so important to Catholics.

How fortunate you are to worship in such a beautiful church. I recently attended my aunt’s funeral at her Southern Baptist church and what struck me were the lack religious symbols in the building. There was only one cross in the chapel and that was located on top of the U.S. flag pole - about six inches tall, placed behind the choir. It was like a white sterilized seplecur. Very sad.

What matters is what each person believes concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ; God could careless about any denomination. We are jsutified soley by the merits of Jesus. i don’t know a Christian who believes that once you have been declared righteous and immediately recive the HS, then there is nothing else till you go to heaven. God preordained for each Christian “good works” that the Christian would give testimony to the goodness, mercy of God and in the process bring glory to His Name. Anyone who holds to the easy believism is fooling themselves and the truth is not in them. Entering into the kingdom is not an easy thing according to Scripture manys eek to enter but few are able.

 

[DerekD]

I think I know what he was talking about and I agree… I do not believe everybody in the CC is a Christian either…

But before you stone me now here me out:

I don’t believe that everybody in the other churches is a Christian either…
May they be Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian, Anglican, Lutheran, Reformed, Presbyterian, Congregationalist, Anabaptist, Brethren, Methodist, Baptist, Apostolic, Pentecostal, Charismatic, African Initiated, United, Adventist, Millerite, part of the Pietists and Holiness Churches, part of the Religious Society of Friends (Quaker), part of the Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement or any other group…

I do not believe that 100% of their individual members are Christians, but I would never say that none of they members are…

Just because somebody was baptized as a baby does not mean that they are really Christians and living accordingly. Just because somebody prayed a prayer once does not mean that they are truly regenerate…

How many people claim to be Christians if you ask them, but do not give any evidence with their lives? Many people would not be found guilty for lack of evidence if they were to be tried for being Christians…

Others still just do the chores and live their lives according to the rules… They show outwards Christianity, but their heart is not with it… They give lip-service every time they enter a church and even outside of those buildings… They give that impression of piety to everybody, but apart from this show there is nothing else…

However I am certain that there are quite a few true Christians scattered throughout these groups that truly love God with all their heart mind and soul. They are no longer conformed to this world, but they are being transformed by the renewing of their mind, so that they may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect… They truly are dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Thoughtfully stated;

 

[AwGusTeen]

What matters is what each person believes concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ; God could careless about any denomination. We are jsutified soley by the merits of Jesus. i don’t know a Christian who believes that once you have been declared righteous and immediately recive the HS, then there is nothing else till you go to heaven. God preordained for each Christian “good works” that the Christian would give testimony to the goodness, mercy of God and in the process bring glory to His Name. Anyone who holds to the easy believism is fooling themselves and the truth is not in them. Entering into the kingdom is not an easy thing according to Scripture manys eek to enter but few are able.

DerekD: You are spot on brother; however (and unfortunately) that seems to be the minority Baptist position here in Southeast Alabama. As an example, when I converted to Catholicism two years ago, my older brother (an SB) and I had a “come to Jesus meeting” about the event. I confronted him on the question of OSAS asking that, in his opinion, what would the outcome be if a person whom, having honestly accepted Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior, would then go out and kill ten people an then immediatley died --would that person go to heaven or hell? He responded that the person would go to heaven. I was flabbergasted. Clearly, I’m not projecting this onto all Baptists as I know and love many Baptists who are appalled by such a belief system. However, I am venturing a guess (based upon anecdotal evidence) that this belief system is more prevalent than one might suspect - especially here in the deep South.

I thank you for your thoughtful and honest testimony, and I believe that you and I are very close in agreement here.
May God Bless you!

 

[DerekD]

Apparantly Derek you beleive that anyone who “gits saved” is a Christian and will go to heaven no matter which church or even no church they belong to?

Every one’s on their own completely? Is that why Protestant is so very individualistic why Protestants are so apt to say “my” Lord instead of “our” Lord?

The fact is that none of this theology even existed before the 16th century when invented by Luther and Calvin. The church came before the bible in history and the church produced the bible, put her teachings in the bible not the other way around.

Why should we who are in the origanal church listed to the insults and implications that we aren’t Christians of the folower of a new upstart religion, who is unaware that there are four gospels and not just one?

Out of the mouth speaks the heart “git-it”. God is not a respecter of parsons…rit? He werks an vidual heart a a tim…rit? I believe there are Catholics who are saved; not many, but some. Likewise, i believe there are many on other denominations who are not saved but believe they are. why? God choses whom He choses and no amount of religion can change that. Are you saved?

 

[DerekD]

DerekD: You are spot on brother; however (and unfortunately) that seems to be the minority Baptist position here in Southeast Alabama. As an example, when I converted to Catholicism two years ago, my older brother (an SB) and I had a “come to Jesus meeting” about the event. I confronted him on the question of OSAS asking that, in his opinion, what would the outcome be if a person whom, having honestly accepted Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior, would then go out and kill ten people an then immediatley died --would that person go to heaven or hell? He responded that the person would go to heaven. I was flabbergasted. Clearly, I’m not projecting this onto all Baptists as I know and love many Baptists who are appalled by such a belief system. However, I am venturing a guess (based upon anecdotal evidence) that this belief system is more prevalent than one might suspect - especially here in the deep South.

I thank you for your thoughtful and honest testimony, and I believe that you and I are very close in agreement here.
May God Bless you!

The question you posed is ridiculous to start with, but the answer you were given is correct. If a person is truly known by God, then went and killed a bunch of babies in a nursery at the hospital; God’s grace is large enough to bring that person to heaven. However, I would question whether that person that did such a thing really ever was known by God. David fornicated with a married woman and worse he tried to cover it up and when that didn’t work he sent the man into battle to get killed and yet God said David was a man after His own heart. Likewise, Moses killed an egytptian. So you cannot play god nor fully understand His ways. The greatest example is the apostle Paul; he persecuted christians all over the place; yet God intervened and made him an instrument of righteousness. So you can impose onto god how you think He should be, but this is evidience that you do not understand the gospel of pure grace; He choses whom He choses and He is just and fair in doing so for all have sinned and violated His prefect holiness and everyone deserves hell; so anyone whom He choses to give to His Son is a pure act of mercy on His part. Any disagreement?

 

[pipper]

Out of the mouth speaks the heart “git-it”. God is not a respecter of parsons…rit? He werks an vidual heart a a tim…rit? I believe there are Catholics who are saved; not many, but some. Likewise, i believe there are many on other denominations who are not saved but believe they are. why? God choses whom He choses and no amount of religion can change that. Are you saved?

Of course I am saved, but according the the full teachings of the bible which includes baptism for the remisson of sin see acts 2:38 amoung other scriptures that clearly state that baptism if a part of salvation and not something done after sins are already forgiven. Which directly contradicts the plain teachings of the four (not one) gospels.

That’s my main problem with Evangelicals in general and not just Baptists. Yall decide your theology first and then look for proof texts to back you up. While ignoreing the rest of what is taught inSacred Scripture.

That theology’s opposed to the bible itself, instead of coming from the bible.

You hate the CC so much as amply proven my your words, That your theology is formed in opposition to the Church and not from the bible.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

I don’t think you all are ignorant of religion as Catholics, but I haven’t seen one yet that understands the gospel of salvation apart from works, legalism, or a sacrament.

‘For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God is absolutely necessary’ (De Fide)

‘Internal supernatural grace is absolutely necessary for the beginning of faith and of salvation’ (De Fide)

‘The justified also require actual grace for the performance of salutary acts’ (De Fide)

‘Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification’ (De Fide)

‘The justified person is not able for his whole life long to avoid all sins, even venial sins, without the special priviledge of the grace of God’ (De Fide)

Life for a Catholic is life lived in grace:thumbsup:

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Are you saved?

Am I saved?
As you know from this financial crisis savings can depreciate in value.

I think the questions should be, "Have I invested wisely? and "In what have I invested?

 

[Paul3144]

‘For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God is absolutely necessary’ (De Fide)

‘Internal supernatural grace is absolutely necessary for the beginning of faith and of salvation’ (De Fide)

‘The justified also require actual grace for the performance of salutary acts’ (De Fide)

‘Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification’ (De Fide)

‘The justified person is not able for his whole life long to avoid all sins, even venial sins, without the special priviledge of the grace of God’ (De Fide)

Life for a Catholic is life lived in grace:thumbsup:

I agree with this with exception of the distinction between mortal and venial sins.

Derek, from one SB to another: do you think the RCC, as a whole, is Christian? I do. In fact, even if you say a less percentage of RCs than SBs are saved (I don’t), there will be far more Catholics in heaven than SBs by force of sheer numbers. To adapt a quote from Fox News contributor Fr. Jonathan Morris, many faithful Roman Catholics will get in to heaven ahead of the throngs of wishy-washy Southern Baptists who only darken the church doors for their baptism, wedding, Christmas, Easter, and their own funeral.