Catholicism – Too Feminized?

[Dulcie]

As a very general observation, I think that women are more inclined to be passive and obedient than men when it comes to their response to liturgical change. So when people find themselves in a parish that has the kind of things mentioned upthread: treacly hymns, patronising sermons, smug and self-satisfied prayers that seem more about worshipping “the community” than about worshipping God, or [insert whatever your most despised experiences have been here] then I think men and teenage boys are more inclined to walk away in disgust, assuming that the Church has no vision to offer them, whereas women will obediently put up with it and stay in the pew. So I think that “feminization” refers not necessarily to changes that women have brought about, but to the kind of response that is more typical of each sex. I also think that women are more preoccupied than men with the social aspect of church, and so that they are more likely to feel that there is something “there for them” in a church which has bad liturgy but a friendly community, whereas men simply find it empty and embarrassing, and leave.

I suffered through a year in a parish with bad music, smug sermons, and a priest who referred dismissively to “the holy joes” and suggested that there was really no problem with contraception. I hated it, really, but didn’t want to admit that and kept protesting feebly that the priest “meant well”. It took ages to bring myself to admit just how spiritually empty and pernicious it all was, because I didn’t want to feel negative or to criticise something that was well-meant. I have now changed my mind and believe that it is important to combine charity with a healthy sense of scepticism where scepticism is warranted.

 

[Xantippe]

As a very general observation, I think that women are more inclined to be passive and obedient than men when it comes to their response to liturgical change. So when people find themselves in a parish that has the kind of things mentioned upthread: treacly hymns, patronising sermons, smug and self-satisfied prayers that seem more about worshipping “the community” than about worshipping God, or [insert whatever your most despised experiences have been here] then I think men and teenage boys are more inclined to walk away in disgust, assuming that the Church has no vision to offer them, whereas women will obediently put up with it and stay in the pew. So I think that “feminization” refers not necessarily to changes that women have brought about, but to the kind of response that is more typical of each sex. I also think that women are more preoccupied than men with the social aspect of church, and so that they are more likely to feel that there is something “there for them” in a church which has bad liturgy but a friendly community, whereas men simply find it empty and embarrassing, and leave.

I suffered through a year in a parish with bad music, smug sermons, and a priest who referred dismissively to “the holy joes” and suggested that there was really no problem with contraception. I hated it, really, but didn’t want to admit that and kept protesting feebly that the priest “meant well”. It took ages to bring myself to admit just how spiritually empty and pernicious it all was, because I didn’t want to feel negative or to criticise something that was well-meant. I have now changed my mind and believe that it is important to combine charity with a healthy sense of scepticism where scepticism is warranted.

Those are some very interesting points.

It reminds me of how when I was growing up, our family endured years of horrible Pentecostal preaching in our Assemblies of God church because that was my parents’ church and the whole extended family went there and my mom taught adult Sunday school, all their old friends were there, our cousin was the music pastor, etc., etc.

(It wasn’t just form, but the fact that the pastor would do stuff like off-handedly mention that the world was probably going to end within the next 20 years.)

 

[RACJ]

It’s funny you mention that, because there are parts of the internet where guys like to dream at length about the fembots of the future and how easy life will be without having to deal with real women.

There is a six-letter word for those fellows who dream of “fembots”. “LOSERS”!

 

[RACJ]

Let me give an example of RC feminist overreach which may be infuriating to some men. It’s the gender-neutering of lyrics. Hark the Herald Angels Sing now includes the clunker “pleased as us with us to dwell, Jesus our Emmanuel”. You can’t say MAN anymore, even though it stands for all humanity. If you don’t like the lyrics the composer wrote, write your own song! Don’t butcher his!

 

[Sugabee43]

Let me give an example of RC feminist overreach which may be infuriating to some men. It’s the gender-neutering of lyrics. Hark the Herald Angels Sing now includes the clunker “pleased as us with us to dwell, Jesus our Emmanuel”. You can’t say MAN anymore, even though it stands for all humanity. If you don’t like the lyrics the composer wrote, write your own song! Don’t butcher his!

Oh, good heavens, YES YES YES!!! This drives me absolutely BATTY!!! I grew up in the Episcopal church singing many of these old hymns, and to hear them ‘gender-neutralized’ irks me to no end!!! That is NOT how the songwriter wrote it, and it ought to be left alone. I consider myself a classical feminist, and if some women are so easily offended that the song doesn’t “include” their gender (which it does), or written in an old style - well, they need to grow UP.

I do my very best to sing the proper words as loudly as possible!!!

 

[ShadowBoxer]

Oh, good heavens, YES YES YES!!! This drives me absolutely BATTY!!! I grew up in the Episcopal church singing many of these old hymns, and to hear them ‘gender-neutralized’ irks me to no end!!! That is NOT how the songwriter wrote it, and it ought to be left alone. I consider myself a classical feminist, and if some women are so easily offended that the song doesn’t “include” their gender (which it does), or written in an old style - well, they need to grow UP.

I do my very best to sing the proper words as loudly as possible!!!

:thumbsup:

How would you describe a classical feminist? (That’s not meant to be snide, I’m genuinely curious.)

 

[Sugabee43]

Classical, as in Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, etc… who believed in women’s equal rights to vote, own property; that sort of thing. They also were adamantly pro-life, believing that abortion was a reflection that the needs of women were not being met by society if a woman felt driven to kill her own unborn child.

Planned Parenthood and the National Organization of Women do NOT like to be reminded that the founding foremothers of the feminist movement were against abortion. LOL

 

[ShadowBoxer]

Classical, as in Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, etc… who believed in women’s equal rights to vote, own property; that sort of thing. They also were adamantly pro-life, believing that abortion was a reflection that the needs of women were not being met by society if a woman felt driven to kill her own unborn child.

Planned Parenthood and the National Organization of Women do NOT like to be reminded that the founding foremothers of the feminist movement were against abortion. LOL

Interesting

As a classical feminist, how would you define masculinity and femininity?

 

[marymary1975]

Classical, as in Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, etc… who believed in women’s equal rights to vote, own property; that sort of thing. They also were adamantly pro-life, believing that abortion was a reflection that the needs of women were not being met by society if a woman felt driven to kill her own unborn child.

Planned Parenthood and the National Organization of Women do NOT like to be reminded that the founding foremothers of the feminist movement were against abortion. LOL

Oh I like the “classical feminist” term. Because of the appropriation of the term done by radical feminism I have been reluctant to use the term but this sounds nice. I am going to start using it…classical feminist :newidea::newidea::newidea:

 

[Sugabee43]

Probably the same way you would; in a traditional sense. I don’t believe that traditional feminism demands that women act “like men”, or vice versa. God made the sexes different for a reason. Is that what you mean?

 

[ShadowBoxer]

Probably the same way you would; in a traditional sense. I don’t believe that traditional feminism demands that women act “like men”, or vice versa. God made the sexes different for a reason. Is that what you mean?

Pretty much, yeah. I believe men and women have different roles suited to their respective strengths. I don’t know why so many people see this as degrading to women. If I say that a hammer is better suited to drive nails than a screwdriver, have I implied that the screwdriver is any less useful? Sorry, just needed to vent a little bit.

 

[Sugabee43]

Well, there you go, then. Good analogy!

 

[Xantippe]

Pretty much, yeah. I believe men and women have different roles suited to their respective strengths. I don’t know why so many people see this as degrading to women. If I say that a hammer is better suited to drive nails than a screwdriver, have I implied that the screwdriver is any less useful? Sorry, just needed to vent a little bit.

But if particular individuals don’t actually have those particular strengths, what then?

If you look at somebody like Temple Grandin (the famous autistic animal behavior specialist), she’s a woman, but she’s not stereotypically feminine and she hasn’t lived a stereotypically feminine life.

It’s one thing to say, “It’s OK to be feminine or masculine,” but it’s an entirely different thing to say, “You’re a man or a woman, so you need to be X, Y and Z or you are failing as a man or a woman and you don’t get to do A, B or C.”

 

[Sugabee43]

I think God expects us to use the gifts He has given us to His glory. If a woman has particularly masculine tendencies, that’s fine as long as she is glorifying God in the process. That does not mean, however, that all women should behave that way or that feminine tendencies are “bad”.

 

[Xantippe]

I think God expects us to use the gifts He has given us to His glory. If a woman has particularly masculine tendencies, that’s fine as long as she is glorifying God in the process. That does not mean, however, that all women should behave that way or that feminine tendencies are “bad”.

I’m not sure that it is right to call them masculine or feminine tendencies–or at least, it could be understood as an insult. There’s such an enormous stigma attached to both feminine men and masculine women (although there’s little bit of an exception for tomboys).

 

[Sugabee43]

I suppose. The words “masculine” and “feminine” just refer to those characteristics that relate to the sex. Just because you have masculine characteristics as a woman doesn’t make you less of a woman. You’re just you; as God made you!

 

[Xantippe]

I suppose. The words “masculine” and “feminine” just refer to those characteristics that relate to the sex. Just because you have masculine characteristics as a woman doesn’t make you less of a woman. You’re just you; as God made you!

But what are those “masculine” features?

I haven’t seen a list (and especially not on this thread) that was particularly convincing. Somebody was claiming self-sacrifice and courage as purely masculine virtues and nurturing as a purely feminine virtue, which a couple of us took exception to.

Virtue is virtue–boys and girls don’t get issued different pink and blue versions of the virtues. Everybody needs faith, hope, charity, prudence, temperance, justice and fortitude.

 

[pianistclare]

But what are those “masculine” features?

I haven’t seen a list (and especially not on this thread) that was particularly convincing. Somebody was claiming self-sacrifice and courage as purely masculine virtues and nurturing as a purely feminine virtue, which a couple of us took exception to.

Virtue is virtue–boys and girls don’t get issued different pink and blue versions of the virtues. Everybody needs faith, hope, charity, prudence, temperance, justice and fortitude.

Right.

 

[Sugabee43]

But what are those “masculine” features?

I haven’t seen a list (and especially not on this thread) that was particularly convincing. Somebody was claiming self-sacrifice and courage as purely masculine virtues and nurturing as a purely feminine virtue, which a couple of us took exception to.

Virtue is virtue–boys and girls don’t get issued different pink and blue versions of the virtues. Everybody needs faith, hope, charity, prudence, temperance, justice and fortitude.

I agree, and I personally would attribute all of those gifts, including self-sacrifice and courage, to both sexes. If, as a woman, someone told me I exhibited a few masculine tendencies, I wouldn’t be offended or insulted by that. Webster’s defines “feminine” as “characteristic of or appropriate or unique to women”, so I don’t believe there’s an exhaustive list.

 

[Sarcelle]

Pretty much, yeah. I believe men and women have different roles suited to their respective strengths. I don’t know why so many people see this as degrading to women. If I say that a hammer is better suited to drive nails than a screwdriver, have I implied that the screwdriver is any less useful? Sorry, just needed to vent a little bit.

So what roles are suited for women?

The usual answer I get is housewife. Nothing wrong with that but that seems to be the only role reserved for women. So we don’t think of it as degrading but restricting. After all not all of us are wives.

The Church certainly does not teach that all women are supposed to be housewives.